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We have a crisis, in that the left in the US assumes all
efforts for voter id are voter suppression, and the right
assumes that mail in votes, especially are prone to wide
spread fraud
My biggest concern with mail in votes is that you cannot
guarantee a secret ballot, and you cannot tell me
that a
situation where a bunch of people came into a room,
said -
- fill these out this way -- couldn't have happened -- in a
a
way that absolutely cannot happen even if you're busing
someone to a poll place.
While it's inevitable that in some families one person
filled
out the ballots, and perhaps in some cases (though it's
illegal) signed for multiple voters -- a comprehensive
study
of submitted mail in ballots should be able to reveal:
1. The ratio of separate handwriters to ballots
2. The ratio of separate inks (ink pens?) used to fill such
ballots out.
At the very least, such a study could reassure that
roughly
the same # of people filled out the ballots as
theoretically
voted.
a sample ballot
https://votebymailn...eral-election-2020/
[theircompetitor, Mar 15 2021]
Anonymous Voting Cards
Anonymous_20Govt_20...ed_20Voting_20Cards
[theircompetitor, Mar 18 2021]
If only Republicans could be more like Democrats and accept election results graciously.
https://www.electio...-to-rig-an-election
But seriously, when this was all happening, despite how much I loathe the NEW Democrat party, I of course completely supported critical review of these systems. [doctorremulac3, Mar 19 2021]
some news about the way the media lies
https://youtu.be/q4NxLWmmsqs
[xandram, Mar 21 2021]
The original recording ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VIJU3M-kKhI
... though not identical, is actually very similar to what was originally reported - so the correction is not that big a deal. [pertinax, Mar 21 2021]
Marc Elias ...
https://www.law.com...turn=20210221190625
... according to law.com. Is law.com itself a reliable sorce? It looks respectable, but I hadn't heard of it before. [pertinax, Mar 21 2021]
Sydney Powell argues that no one in their right mind would believe her...
https://www.cnn.com...on-fraud/index.html
I think her theory of these people having a "right mind" is overestimated. [RayfordSteele, Mar 23 2021]
[link]
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This is a reasonable proposal with the goal of
optimistic cooperation, and as such it will be
ignored. |
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Most folks do not understand that recounting the mail in
ballots is completely pointless. |
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What would have to be checked are the tearoff sections
where one attests that they voted by themselves, or had
help etc. |
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Those are not -- I believe -- present when votes are
tallied. Recounts are irrelevant. |
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It is those tear off cards that need to be examined. The
below is quoted from one of the "how are votes counted"
articles: |
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All of these pre-checks are done with the envelope
closed. So we can’t tell by looking at the envelope if the
voter is Republican or Democrat or Independent or how
they voted. When we slice open the envelope, we do it in
a way where you can’t see the voter’s signature and the
ballot at the same time. We remove the ballot, but don’t
unfold it, and we do this, of course, around a table with
multiple poll workers or election judges. And so
everyone’s a check on each other to make sure that no
one’s trying to be silly and trying to see how somebody
voted. |
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Once those are removed, then we unfold the ballot and
examine it, looking for tears, blood, sticky stuff that
might get stuck in the machines. Then we place the
ballots in batches from the time we receive them, and we
reconcile at each point throughout the process to make
sure we don’t lose any ballots or that no new ballots are
introduced incorrectly or improperly into the system. |
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So as you see -- the assumptions about "fraud" are about
someone checking and throwing out ballots from either
party. Can't give a fuck about that, and yes, likely not a
meaningful problem. |
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So then the other question is are signatures actually
checked versus registrations, are they checked at all, and
are they checked for "same person filled out a dozen or a
100 ballots". |
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And my bet would be that they're not. And they should
be. |
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I'd want it on all mail-in ballots. |
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And btw, given the numbers that voted in this last
election,
including all the first time voters, what signatures were
they
compared against? Do I recall correctly that I just got a
ballot and didn't ask for one? Nor did my dead mom? I
think
I recall correctly. |
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I cannot be convinced that a mail-in ballot is secure, or
secret. It just cannot be done. |
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But I could at least be convinced the number of humans
filling them out matched the number of humans voting. I
don't think it's too much to ask. |
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something on the scale of what was done with the
hanging chads should suffice. |
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more specifically, it'd be great if the scanning machine
itself could have enough "ai" to notice signature
similarities. But if we're making a study, obviously you'd
examine precinct by precinct. |
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Once you've loaded all the images from the envelopes --
presuming such physical stuff exists -- probably it does
not -- then why would the AI care whether the file was
loaded in Sheboygan or NYC? |
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Maybe once loaded, the left can use that AI for all future
elections, sounds like that would save a lot of folks a lot
of time, effort and money |
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I'm of two minds on the matter of mail-in voting. But gathering and analyzing a statistically significant (in this case you want a huge number, since you're looking for such a small variance) percentage of signatures separate from their ballots should be informative without treading on the constitution. |
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Signatures from contested and uncontested areas should be analyzed each as a group without the analyzer knowing which is which. I just don't understand the people saying we should never ever question the validity of an election. To not do so looks to me like a fast ride to tyranny land. |
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I'm not saying that because I like Trump (I don't) or because I dislike Biden. I'm saying that because I want to maintain free elections for my children. |
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I'm no big fan of Trump and certainly even less so of
Biden. |
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But however much blame conspiracy theories bear, and
however much blame social media bears, and however
much blame Russian or Chinese interference bears, and
however much truth there is in voter suppression here
and voter fraud there: |
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You are bound, in our Republic, to have some meaningful
portion of the population be unhappy after every
election. |
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But you cannot have a situation where a meaningful
portion of the population doubts the actual validity of the
count. |
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It seems perfectly possible to me, as that is the current situation. |
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yes, of course, just not very sustainable... |
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A proper study would eliminate or prove those concerns. It would also leave us more willing to question our elections, which would leave us more willing to work to assure their validity. |
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Every-one votes by mail, signs it, and includes a drop of
their own blood (I considered signs with their own blood,
but I decided that was a bit too much...). DNA comparisons
ensure each ballot is from a unique person. |
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Would you settle for a hair? |
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What [sninctown] said. [+] |
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What [pert] said that [sninctown] said. |
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As this will never ever happen I have an alternative
proposal,
lets just jump straight to the heart of the problem
(literally) &
butcher
every politician, reporter & editor (both TV & paper),
presenter, director & producer on the planet (Joss Whedon
&
a few select others special acceptations of course)
regardless
of their political affiliation so we can start fresh. |
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All the lawyers too of
course, just because they're lawyers, nobody likes them. |
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Anyone in the lobbying industry counts as a politician for
this naturally. |
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We can have a barbecue, make a party of it. |
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Thinking again, how confident are we that the technology exists
to do this? Presumably, if you look at the signatures of tens of
millions of people, some of them will, legitimately, have *very*
similar handwriting. So, I'm changing my vote to [=] until this
question is addressed. |
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// alternative proposal
Looking at the history of past revolutions (the
French Revolution comes to mind) they generally
seem to create at least as many problems as they
solve, tend to go off the rails pretty much
immediately, and tend to be taken over by some
other questionable faction. That's not a very
appealing alternative. The lesson from software
engineering is to patch and refactor the code, not
start over. I think the Internet memes still spread
faster than the censorship, so the truth will get out
such as it is. |
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But I've already got the barbi fired up, & what am I
supposed
to do with all this honey mustard I just ordered in? |
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//patch and refactor// Umm, that's exactly what I said
wasn't
it, nothing about
changing any institutions or our
democracy, just a little purge of a few people at the top. |
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Well OK, a 'lot of people' at the top, but you have to
admit it's
all a
bit top heavy right now (the nice man with a Kalashnikov
about to knock on your door will make sure of that) &
can
do with a prune
to allow some fresh growth, besides, I've still got all this
mustard & I want a barbecue. |
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Well, as they say in the 41st millennium: "victory needs
no explanation. defeat allows none." |
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I'd suggest thinking of a general rule that describes what
you don't like -- some rule that if applied equally to
everyone would disallow whatever it is you don't want.
Then, tell people about it and discuss improvements. |
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My preference is mocking the ruling class on the Internet:
for failing to understand let alone appreciate the
possibilities for space colonization (not seeking infinite
exponential growth in space), for failing to live up to the
example set by their forebears (not making enough of
their own ideas; instead relying on the help/professional
investors), for failing to lead humanity in a positive
direction (not correcting e.g. South Korea's <1 fertility
rate), and for having bad taste (not building anything
other than endless copies of versailles and/or brutalist
fallingwater). I'm not sure what this achieves but it
seemed like a good idea at the time. |
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//I'd suggest thinking of a general rule that describes what
you don't like -- some rule that if applied equally to everyone
would disallow whatever it is you don't want// |
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Too much gristle? yes definitely too much gristle, pork chop
anyone? |
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//I'd suggest thinking of a general rule [...]// |
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Kant suggested that, too, sort-of (look up Categorical
Imperative). It was a good suggestion. |
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I much prefer Rousseau as a philosopher, more direct with his
ideas, which might be paraphrased as "mend your ways, or
else" [raises an eyebrow] anyone want mustard with that? I've
got lots. |
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Are you still blathering about the fact you lost an unloseable
election, [tc]? |
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It's over. Trump's dodgy legal team couldn't even move the
dial with their bluster and shouting and absolute lack of
evidence. |
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Lay back and enjoy the nascent social democracy that
smarter people than the GOP have finally brought to the
Benighted States of America. |
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// bluster and shouting and lack of evidence
I also enjoy projecting |
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+ There is only lack of evidence when the media
refuses to acknowledge the evidence that actually
exists. If everyone believes what the media says
we’re in a sad state… |
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As some one who has lived in a dictatorship, a
parliamentary democracy, and in the US, I am 100%
convinced that the thing that makes the US unique (and
has throughout it's history, warts and all) is it's limitations
on majority rule. So despite as being viewed as a leftover
of the past, the filibuster, the Electoral College, they
serve to slow the pace of change and laws are more
stable and many things require super majorities. |
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So yes, we are all aware that in most elections in the
current climate, the left would gather more total votes,
but they are not at 60/40. We cannot continue, in the
US, to have elections that a minority of 45 or so percent
does not believe are accurate. As out there as folks like
the Shaman or QAnon accolades may be, I'm sure he never
doubted for a second Obama's win totals in 08 and 12.
We cannot have what the Dems engineered in 2020 --
people have to be able to believe the voting totals. |
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It is beyond frustrating to go to a Target and see it's
swamped with people, and hear about how difficult it
would have been to go and vote. The insistence on the
avoidance of any kind of ID because it's too difficult to
get IDs is an absurdity on its face. The willingness to
accept ballots that are not guaranteed to be secret is way
to convenient for the one party that focuses on organizing
voters via unions. |
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But ultimately none of that is the key -- the key is the
consent of the governed -- and even if the governed are
pretty fucken unreasonable, if you don't have their
consent, you can't govern. |
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There is no problem getting an ID, unless you are black.
There is no problem registering to vote, unless you are
black.
There is no problem with being shot by police, unless you
are black. |
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You don't have a voting problem, [tc], you have a fucking
racism problem, and no-one will stand up to the white
supremacist arseholes in your society and tell them the
hard truth that they are not god's chosen people; they are
not the master race, and they are not entitled to bully
and denigrate and revile and marginalise the 15% of the
US population who are black. |
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//We cannot have what the Dems engineered in
2020// |
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Racism here is a manufactured problem. |
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I watch alternative media and after the election I
saw voters testify that they had gone to the polls
to vote and they were told they had already voted.
These are white people, middle-class people and
just regular people whose votes were stolen. |
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you can divide Americans into two
classes.Starbucks or Dunkin’ donuts |
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//We cannot have what the Dems engineered in 2020// |
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Is it possible, [tc], that you are overestimating the engineering
skills of the Democratic Party? |
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//regular people whose votes were stolen// |
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If those people were who they appeared to be, [xandram] then
why do you suppose that their testimony, and other testimony
like it, was rejected by not just one but many courts, with many
different judges, including Republican-appounted judges? |
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This is not a rhetorical question: I am genuinely curious about
what you think happened. |
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//As some one who has lived in a dictatorship, a
parliamentary
democracy, and in the US// |
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I do love the way the US gets it's own category there, neither
a dictatorship, nor exactly a democracy, apparently :)) |
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We don't functionally have a democracy. We have a
democrazy. |
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We cannot have cities where people stand in line for 9
hours to vote without so much as a lousy drink of water or
a restroom. This is the asinine misery that Georgia
Republicans have put in place. |
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We cannot have a functioning democracy when California
Republicunts defy a court order to quit putting up decoy
fake drop boxes. William F. Buckley would be proud.
They should be wearing orange and chiseling rocks for such
fuckery. |
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We can't have a Senate where Senators who represent a
smaller population than many US counties get to determine
the future of our policies. Had the framers saw exactly
how disparaged the power tilt has become, they would've
freaked out. These are the same people who haggled to
death over how much power noncitizen slaves should be
counted as bonus for slave states. |
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Republicans have only won the popular Presidential vote
once since 1992. Do you know why we have the Electoral
College? Here's James Madison's 'diplomatic' description. |
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"There was one difficulty however of a serious nature
attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of
suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the
Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in
the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution
of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the
whole to be liable to fewest objections." |
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It's a slavery relic. Plain and simple. |
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As a result, we have 3 Supreme Court judges who were
rushed into power by a President who lost the popular vote
and confirmed by Senators who represent much less than
half of the population of the country. |
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Tell me that's a functional democracy. Go on. Sell me a
bridge while you're at it. |
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//William F. Buckley would be proud// |
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This is probably a little unfair to Buckley, of whom it has been
said that he policed the right wing of the GOP to keep out the
klansmen and Birchers. |
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//Go on. Sell me a bridge while you're at it// |
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Well as it happens I do know this Nigerian prince hoping to
divest himself of some properties in London, purely for tax
reasons of course, he might have something in his portfolio
you'd like [shuffles through papers] ah here we are, nice little
bridge, one careful owner, I can put you in touch if you'd like? |
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//This is probably a little unfair to Buckley,// |
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The only thing larger than Buckley's bank account
was his ego. Even after he switched sides from his
1957 paper to a more liberal position on racial
injustice, he never lost his sense of self-
righteousness or privelege as a "first among equals." |
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// of whom it has been said that he policed the right
wing of the GOP to keep out the klansmen and
Birchers.// |
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He seems to have had let his guard down in the 60's. |
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Ray, you have not lived in a parliamentarian system,
particularly a closely divided one, and I have. It's
convenient to label the electoral college as you have, but
the reality is this -- the limitations that the US puts on
majority rule are there to HELP you -- you will quickly
discover this if you are ever in the parliamentary minority
-- as the 6-3
Supreme Court amply illustrates. Let's not even talk
about swinging taxation systems and rule framework
every couple of years. This is why European economies
cannot get out of their own way -- and they will not. |
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The vote has to be trusted by everyone. I'm not for
restricting how and where people vote -- I'm not against
registering everywhere and anywhere, I'm fine if it takes
2 weeks to vote. I'm fine if you can vote by phone with a
pin that you got by registering
(though again hard to
prove it's secret). I'm fine if you vote online with a pin
(again hard to prove it's secret) |
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But I'm against non-secret ballots that
cannot be proven to be done without influence, or by an
alive, registered voter at scale. It's not too much to ask
for. |
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The US has a well established way to get to an effective
popular vote -- have all states, one by one, adopt
representative apportionment of electors. I have nothing
against that, I wish my vote would count -- as I live in NJ
it doesn't |
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//There is no problem getting an ID, unless you are black.
There is no problem registering to vote, unless you are
black.// |
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so here is a solution... see attached |
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By my calculation the majority hasn't ruled that
much at all since 1999. It's not "limitations on
majority rule." It's minority rule. |
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oh boy did they waste those separation of powers classes on
you folks. Make me sad... |
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So let's get rid of the electoral college and let New
York
and California rule the lowly proles in the between
states. They're all racist anyway, at least that's
what I
heard. |
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But why stop at letting two states run the entire
country?
Why not have vote value allocation by net worth?
There's
an idea. So if I drive an ambulance for instance,
and
make $50,000 a year, and some Wall Street guy
makes
$5,000,000 a year, his vote is worth 100 times what
the
paramedic guy's is. |
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Oh wait, we already have that with a lobbiest
based
power allocation system. Never mind. |
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Maybe we need a distraction from that by talking
about
nothing but race so the powerful ruling class elites
don't
have to worry about
that lowly middle class asking questions and
possibly
taking a small percentage of their
wealth and total control over absolutely
everything. You
question their power? Hmm, that's
just what a
RACIST would say! |
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I grew up in a black community and when I moved
out of
the ghetto (not all black communities are ghettos,
but
mine was) I found that the white people who
called
"RACIST!" the most were those that were most
wanting to
show just how NOT racist they were. After I got to
know
them I found out there was a reason for that. I'll
let you
figure that one out. |
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It's like if a guy is always talking about gays and
how he
hates them. I just say "Boy, you sure think about
homosexuality a lot for some reason.". |
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If the elite rich really cared about the problems of
the
black community (they don't) they'd talk to
somebody like
me who actually lived there. (they won't) I could
tell
them which people thrived (by getting the fuck
out) and
which languished by doing as they were told by the
elite
leftists and waiting for that revolution that's
"Coming any
day now, just sit tight and do what you're told!"
Some of
the people I grew up with made it out, the rest are
still
there waiting for Big Brother to set everything
right. The
ones that are still alive that is. |
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I know too many successful black people who got
that way
by not buying this racist, elitist, white man's
bullshit
about living in a country where you can't succeed
if you're skin is a certain tone
so you
might as well not even try so just trust (and vote
for) them and they'll fix everything. They DID
succeed by
doing
things like having a strong family, educating
themselves,
establishing a powerful work ethic and staying
away from
drugs and other modern slavery shackles. You
know, the
tools ALL people use to succeed. When the rich,
powerful
white man tells you a rapper like Snoop Dog,
wacked out
of his mind on weed using a vocabulary of about 50
words
is "Cool and what you young blacks should strive to
be."
Might want to consider they might not have your
best
interest at heart. |
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But maybe I'm wrong, maybe the left and this new
administration will
eliminate poverty, plague and bad weather. If that
happens I'll say "Well, how about that? Guess I was
wrong." and everybody will live happily ever after. |
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//the thing that makes the US unique// |
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There is an alternative explanation. When a relatively
small
population of settlers have available to them the natural
resources of an entire continent, they prosper. As the
continent
gradually fills up with other people wanting a piece of the
action,
conditions become more challenging, and political solutions
become more necessary. And if you take the view, "We're
special, we don't need political solutions", then you'll
continue
to have political problems. |
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Australia, Canada and New Zealand are prosperous for the
same
underlying reason that the US is prosperous, and have for
some
time been scoring higher on international comparisons of
livability, and I suggest that this may in part be because
their
political systems have been producing better outcomes in
recent years. |
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Separation of powers is important, of course, but in the
American context, it always reminds me of an
extraordinarily
cynical advertisement I saw in an American news magazine
in
the 1990s. It had been placed by a lobbying company, and
it
referenced the separation of powers. It said something like
"we
can turn the three branches of government into three
channels
for advancing the interests of your business". And of
course,
once that has been done, they are no longer separate. |
|
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Poverty, at least temporarily, has been reduced by a
gobsmacked huge
bunch with the stroke of a pen. |
|
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It will come back in a couple of months, and we don't have many pens left. |
|
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...Blah blah blah neverending bootstraps preaching
during fiscal policy discussions blah blah blah... |
|
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[pert] I am not one for political arguments, I am
not a Democrat nor Republican, but I saw things
that I know were not right. You asked the question
what I think happened and i’m sure no one really
cares what I think happened but I think why those
testimonies were rejected because everything was
engineered by unlawful means to achieve a
predicted outcome. yes, it was fixed. If you don’t
believe that in this world stuff like this happens, it
happens with professional football games, and any
other huge things where money and power are
involved, Then that is completely naïve. |
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I've spent a good amount of time reviewing the cases myself,
more than I've cared to, and no, those testimonies were
rejected because they were either a: quite mad, b: unaware
of the tallying process, c: demonstrably false, or d:
inadmissible heresay. |
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I think you mean hearsay, [Ray], rather than heresy. But I take
your point. |
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Thank you for the linked article, [dr3]. It makes a strong case
against the elimination of paper ballots and for hand counting.
But, IIRC, the disputed totals in the present case used physical,
paper ballots, and were in some cases recounted by hand. So
the problem we're looking at here is a different kind of problem. |
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//i’m sure no one really cares what I think// |
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If I hadn't cared, [xandram], then I wouldn't have asked. |
|
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Interesting article, dr. A bit old, though. I'm not sure
how much has been addressed by the voting
systems companies since. From part 11. |
|
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"The statistically anomalous shifting of votes to the
conservative right has become so pervasive in post-
HAVA America that it now has a name of its own.
Experts call it the “red shift.” |
|
| |
The Election Defense Alliance (EDA) is a nonprofit
organization specializing in election forensics—a
kind of dusting for the fingerprints of electronic
theft. It is joined in this work by a coalition of
independent statisticians, who have compared
decades of computer-vote results to exit polls,
tracking polls, and hand counts. Their findings show
that when disparities occur, they benefit Republicans
and right-wing issues far beyond the bounds of
probability." |
|
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Well my main point of the link was to
highlight the
hypocrisy of this Democrat outrage at people
questioning the validity of an election when they
do the same thing when they lose. |
|
| |
That being said, I don't understand why it's not a
bipartisan issue to create a system both sides
actually trust in EVERY election, not just the ones
where their side wins. We had people dip their
thumbs in blue ink that was very hard to remove
when we brought "democracy" sorry, democracy to
Iraq as a way to insure they only voted once. I
thought that was pretty clever. Might not work
here but sometimes simple
can be good. |
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If I won an election I'd be the first one working to
make sure the integrity of the process was beyond
reproach and I wouldn't do it by just insulting
critics. If a process I create isn't clearly
incorruptible, and demonstrably so, that's my
fault. Just saying "You're stupid! The election's
perfect!" didn't work for me when the Democrats
were saying elections were corrupt on the many
occasions that they cried foul, (the link I posted
shows just a taste of that forgotten history) and it
doesn't work for me now that Republicans are
repeating those same allegations. |
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Rules about how we stage elections ARE being
changed, that's not debatable. To say those
changes can't be discussed and debated is
ridiculous. |
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Although I know this isn't really about finding
processes to effectively get things done, it's just
about hating each other, which is fine, I'm
certainly not above that. Carry on. |
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Ah yes. The 2004 left-wing storming of the capitol
building. I remember it well, taking place during the
same month as the tidal wave that hit Indiana,
the Death Valley blizzard, and that LGBTQ Asian
American Billy Graham Crusade shooter who yelled
JOHN KERRY IS PRESIDENT! before taking his own
life. |
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Sorry but I'm tired of the bullshit both-sides-ism
being played on heavy rotation now. |
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I, for one, would settle for a simple inked digit, if the
ink is unremovable by any sort of available cleaner.
A bit pricey but maybe silver nitrate? |
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//If a process I create isn't clearly incorruptible// |
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Too much to aspire to, no system is incorruptible, but some
are
less easy to disguise the corruption of the system & make
said
corruption easier to see & trace so you can correct it, those
are the ones we should
use. |
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Which is why physical voting at the ballot box is better
than
postal or (gods forbid) electronic to my eye & always will
be. |
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Not sure what you're ranting about Ray, I guess
belonging to a group gives people comfort and if
somebody questions any aspect of the divinity of
that group the rage begins. |
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Thank god I don't get my sense of belonging from
blind adherence to any group. I know that makes
me the enemy to groupies, but I really could not
care less. |
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Sk, at this point, I'm in total agreement with you.
In person, voter ID verified in person voting works
fine. The
vast majority of the people can do it with
exceptions made for the very few people who can't
get to a polling center. We've done this for years. |
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The racist idea that certain races are too stupid to
get an ID card is ludicrous. People of all races are
fully capable of all sorts of things the elites say
they can't do. Get a driver's license, ID card, drive
a car, pay bills, pay taxes. I heard it called "The
soft racism of low expectations" and I think that's a
pretty apt description. If certain groups are having
issues, fine, address those issues and solve the
damn problem. People need voter IDs, get them to
them, whatever it takes. |
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If we can't do that incredibly important job WE'RE
the ones who are
too stupid to run a democracy. |
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And Ray, as a peace offering, thank you for
considering the thumb dye thing. I'm not sure why
that wouldn't' work here, I just get a feeling
people would be outraged by it, don't know why. |
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I'd be kind of proud to display my blue thumb to
show I did my part. I also know from a video I saw
of a bunch of assholes dumping blue dye on a team
mate in the shower that this stuff doesn't come off
easily. The poor guy had to go the the airport with
a blue face. |
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//idea that certain races are too stupid to get an ID card is
ludicrous// |
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& I think those responsible for mistranslating what it is into
that awful little soundbite (ignorant media twats, shock
jocks & self serving lying race baiting politicians & political
activists pedalling hate for personal gain) should be taken
out &
summarily shot. |
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Not those who
innocently or accidentally repeat & perpetuate it of
course, just the ones that had a hand in creating the lie,
the rest can be let off with a stern talking to & a
flogging. |
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"Will Doctorremulac please report to the corrections
department" |
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"Your beating has been scheduled for five, don't be late I've
a dinner date at six" |
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What it is, is that some socio-economic groups simply can't
afford the ID that might be required for voting. |
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Driving licences aren't free, especially factoring in driving
lessons. Passport fees in the UK cost the equivalent of
three or
more
pairs of cheap shoes. |
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So for someone on a low income living hand to mouth who
may actually have to go without a bit to save out of their
weekly food budget over a period of weeks for a new pair
of shoes getting appropriate ID can be an unaffordable
expense.
That is the issue, not their stupidity but the result of too
many economic fuck ups by far too many governments for
far
too long. |
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OK so yes it is due to stupidity, just not theirs, the
politicians & the ill-educated ignorant fucks calling
themselves economists the politicians have been listening
to all that time. |
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The answer of course is as you've said, require locale
authorities to provide free ID as needed. |
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Like locale
authorities did in the UK when the age on the sale of
tobacco
laws changed. |
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The answer is definitely NOT 'So
don't ask for ID' because we should ask for ID for voting. |
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// Driving licences aren't free, especially factoring in driving lessons.// |
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Most states offer an ID equivalent to a driver's license for a small fee. Just eliminate that fee, and also the fees charged for other proof of identity. |
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The idea that black people can't get ID's is preposterous but it will at least eliminate that excuse not to require IDs to vote. |
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As a side benefit it will help educate the public about cryptography to a small extent. Use a strong password/passphrase or anyone can see how you voted. |
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I say we use one of the several numbers already unique to each citizen, hash it with a password made when they vote, and publish the hashes. It will prevent multiple voting, make it much easier to detect people voting under others names, and allow people to verify their own vote. |
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//I think those responsible for mistranslating
//should be taken out & summarily shot.//"Will
Doctorremulac please report to the corrections
department" [Crackle]
"Your beating has been scheduled for five, don't be
late I've a dinner date at six"// |
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So you're fantasizing about having a Nazi style
executions and torture camps for people you
disagree with? I'm guessing you wouldn't be brave
enough to say that to my face, but if you're
fantasizing about murder and torture you might
want to get some help. Seriously. |
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Take it easy, I'm sure he'll give you a minute between blows. |
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It's the time isn't it, you don't like the time, clashes with
another appointment or something does it? OK we can fix
that, I can come back after dinner & fit you in at eight, how's
that? |
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//Take it easy, I'm sure he'll give you a minute
between blows.// |
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He'd be taking a lot more than a minute between
blows because after the first one he'd be... eh, I
won't go there. |
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Take a chill pill S, talking about violence against
anybody on this forum is way out of line. Disagree,
call names, fine, but when you start getting into
torture and murder fantasies that's a problem. |
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If that really is a scenario with you please do get
help. |
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Simple skin-colored latex gloves or magician's
thumb cap could defeat the blue ink pretty easily if
the person applying isn't paying attention. |
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This isn't about racism. It's about access and
privacy. |
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Ray, THANK YOU for bringing this back to the
topic. |
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Yea, maybe. I was sort of just throwing that out
there, but might thumb dye work with us if the
pollsters were trained to carefully inspect thumbs
for
that sort of thing? Dunno, maybe, but it does seem
kind of weird to use such a low tech solution in
this high tech age. |
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I agree that access issues have to be addressed so
let's make that the goal. I think it can be done, I
don't see an insurmountable issue there and it's
vitally important. One thing everybody agrees on is
everybody has to
be able to vote or we don't have a democracy and
nobody wants that. |
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I think the thumb dye's a good idea, there's ways around every
precaution if the one's applying it aren't paying attention,
doesn't mean it wouldn't help, simple, cheap, & barring the
polling officer being hopelessly short sighted with attention
deficit issues & having forgotten to take his glasses with him
that morning likely to be pretty effective really .. on average. |
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[pertinax] i’m sorry, i didn’t mean you but the
general public. i didn’t really want to engage in
this discussion because technically no one really
knows what happened, but something did happen.
please accept my apology. we only get bits of info,
not really knowing if it is correct to begin with. i
certainly don’t trust any of them. politicians,
media, or anyone else spouting off that they
know... |
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I have posted a link that shows how the media lies.
As far as the people I saw saying that their votes
were stolen, they look very normal and sane. If
someone wants to believe they were deranged
then they are also believing everything the spin
doctors say. |
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This is supposed to be news? |
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Follow Marc Elias. He's the lawyer involved in the
cases. |
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Thank you for directing me to Marc Elias, [Ray]. However,
according to the linked article, he seems to have been
instrumental in loosening the rules on campaign finance, and
thereby making the election process even more plutocratic - so
are you sure he's a good guy? |
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He's effective as a lawyer in making his cases. That
would make him as good as his clients' interests. I
would agree that the loosening of campaign finance
is a bad thing. But his Twitter feed of case
documents has certainly been interesting. I should
also say that some of those people believe what
they do but are simply mistaken in their
interpretation of events. |
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