I'm posting this very tentatively and quietly, and will probably delete it.
It's just this. Since someone raised it a while ago, I've increasingly noticed the "swiss cheese" effect. I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind the idea that users can delete their accounts and all of their annotations in one swell foop.
I can see both sides of the argument, and have asked myself if I'd expect (or particularly need) to have the right to remove all vestiges of myself from this or any other semi-public site. Do other sites have similar options?
Even without the "delete account" option, a user can (and should always be able to) delete any particular idea or annotation. But I don't think the "delete all" idea is good. You've enjoyed the site, other people have exchanged views with you and bounced ideas around - I think the option to remove specific ideas or annotations is enough.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 05 2008 (?) Halfbakery Heaven http://web.archive....tp://halfbakery.comAh, yes, deleted annotations do go somewhere, at least if they're picked up here before they're deleted.Ooh, look - all sorts of stuff I don't remember *writing* let alone deleting! [DrCurry, Feb 07 2008] No, most other sites do not offer these options. I find that an outrage, but, hey.
Writing is creative work. You're generous enough to exhibit your work here. In exchange for that trust and generosity, you should get as much control over your work as possible; including, most importantly, an easy way to leave if you ever feel that you don't want to be on one site with these other people. You always have the option of just walking away (e.g. like UnaBubba and FarmerJohn did); but if you're so outraged that you just don't want to be anywhere near this site, you should have an easy escape.
Yes, that means that people can get angry and do stupid things; I've experimented with making that less likely (and I think the experiment has mostly worked, actually.)
Conversely, if I want someone off the site, I don't think I should be allowed to hold on to *any* part of their writing, even if they had the occasional lucid moment. I shouldn't be allowed to cherry-pick a user's conversations, slap their name on a few quotes, then let them not edit what they said.-- jutta, Feb 05 2008 Well, yes, I can see that side of it. On the other hand, if an author or journalist decides to go AWOL, they can't generally recall all the printed copies.
I think the only argument for *not* allowing immediate global deletion is that fact that other people have invested in you (I mean, the writer) by building on what you've written, and have formed the community in which you've (presumably) enjoyed staying. Pulling the rug out damages what's left behind.
Anway, I see the arguments both ways, and I guess this topic has been beaten over the head, skinned, cooked, killed and eaten enough already.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 05 2008 The author or print journalist gets paid by their publishers. I am not paying you. That means that you keep control over your work.
The aspect here that I think I like is that copyright is a very blunt concept; what we're really doing is micro-economical attention trading, with sometimes weird mismatches of what both parties think they're getting. That's interesting, and I guess you could fix specifically how much each contributor to a discussion invests and takes in. But that's a huge can of worms.-- jutta, Feb 05 2008 //micro-economical attention trading// I may have to go away and think about that one. But point taken (subject to my making sure that I understand it).-- MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 06 2008 OK, I'm pretty sure I understand it. Point taken.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 06 2008 It would be relatively easy for someone to capture all the information that is published on this site and make it available on a halfbakery mirror site (like the "Way back machine" (aka internet archive) but capturing on a more frequent basis).
The only reason someone doesn't already do this is (presumably) because the potential value of such information is considered too small compared with the effort/resources required.
So what I'm saying is: the swiss cheese effect could be eliminated if someone could be bothered.-- xaviergisz, Feb 06 2008 I do believe I have the option of leaving this site and leaving behind only those annotations and ideas that I want to leave. It would take some work, but it can be done. At least I am not forced into leaving my words behind if I don't want to.
Many old ideas have such gaps in the threads of annotations that you cannot understand what they were about anymore. That is a shame. But it also makes this place more vibrant, more alive as it were. Because what it is about now is the ideas in the present and their annotations. I recall [jutta] saying something to that effect once(is that so?).
Eventually I came around to [jutta]'s point of view.
And should it really be fell swoop and is swell foop a joke?
I wouls also urge you not to delete this idea. I like that you speak your mind and the way you do it. So bun for that. It is a good idea in it's own right even though I do not agree it should be implemented.-- zeno, Feb 06 2008 I don't agree. I will not delete this.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Feb 06 2008 //micro-economical attention trading// [marked-for-tagline] Also makes a nice acronym: MEAT.-- csea, Feb 06 2008 zeno, swell foop is a spoonerism from long, long ago.
I agree with the point of view jutta has taken. I, as a willing contributor to this site should maintain my right to remove or let stand any of my ideas of annos as I see fit. The relevance or importance of my contributions notwithstanding, they are my property and they were placed here for the enjoyment of the community at large.
Having said that, though, I must emphasize that I am very grateful to those who have departed, either by choice or by fate, and left intact their gifts for us to keep and enjoy.
If I am allowed, I would like to nominate the following as [marked-for-tagline]: There is no "i" in halfbakery.-- Canuck, Feb 06 2008 I feel that the disappearance of annotations from a user who leaves and the disappearance of all the annotations from their ideas might discourage people from leaving because they would not wish to make the annotations nonsensical or destroy them entirely. If that's so, it may mean that the more conscientious people stay and the less so leave, so it would seem a good idea to leave things as they are.-- nineteenthly, Feb 06 2008 //Pulling the rug out damages what's left behind.// [MaxwellBuchanan] Whan you find something particularly piquant, take a clipping, and post it in your own anno with the author's name. Then take action (or is it inaction?) to retain it.
As [xaviergisz] mentioned, there are off-site archives. To fill a gap, you can find and annotate part of that slice of swiss cheese.-- Amos Kito, Feb 06 2008 Perhaps an undelete option: "OK, I'm not angry anymore. Can I put all my annotations back in, please?"-- Ling, Feb 06 2008 UB: aw, go on, destroy your account! ;)
I've actually done it a couple of times (once by mistake, duh!). I rather regret swiss cheesing some of the older annotation threads, but frankly, my understanding is this site was never meant to be for conversations, however it ended up.
But the resulting cleanup benefitted the site, I believe, leaving space for newer members to make a nuisance of, um, name for themselves.-- DrCurry, Feb 06 2008 I would like to read more about micro-economical attention trading. Jutta, would you (or anyone else who understands what it is) please link up some reading. Yahoo and google were unhelpful.
I like the idea of weird mismatches of what each party thinks they are getting. The stuff of romantic comedies! Except for the whole "micro-economical" part, which would surely cut into box office returns if it were part of the title.-- bungston, Feb 06 2008 How about some kind of HB heaven where all the deleted stuff goes after it's died? I'm not suggesting it has any direct connection with this site, but there could be some other program which searches it occasionally and deletes everything which hasn't been deleted then keeps a copy of that, probably via Google or the Wayback Machine.
Actually no, i don't like that because it would mean that things were recorded without your knowledge and if you regretted it, it'd be there forever, and it would be sort of happening behind your back, so forget it, but i'm leaving this here because this is actually about deletion.-- nineteenthly, Feb 06 2008 //Yes, that means that people can get angry and do stupid things; I've experimented with making that less likely (and I think the experiment has mostly worked, actually.)//
If P.E.T.A. only knew how many ducks were used in the experimental phase...-- blissmiss, Feb 06 2008 Is that the only way you can get to see the ducks, by the way? Would it blunt their effect to see them in any other way?-- nineteenthly, Feb 06 2008 The ducklings have gone the way of the dodo. (Those of a daintier disposition may imagine that the ducklings have grown up to become drakes and ducks, leading full, resplendent lives at the edge of a peaceful, shady lake, eventually raising ducklings of their own. Ah, the circle of life.) No amount of destroying accounts will get you ducklings. (However, a simple web image search, I'm sure, will.)-- jutta, Feb 06 2008 don't tempt us with ducks - some of us are weak...-- po, Feb 06 2008 //don't tempt us with ducks //With hoisin and pancakes?-- AbsintheWithoutLeave, Feb 06 2008 ...and those very finely shredded spring onions?-- MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 06 2008 Just imagine if one of you deleted your account. This thread would no longer... er... make any... sense...
Ok, who's left now?-- theleopard, Feb 07 2008 So, what happens now when one leaves in a fit of pique?-- nineteenthly, Feb 07 2008 I'm almost tempted to delete my account now, just to see what happens.-- nineteenthly, Feb 07 2008 //No peeking! There are no ducks!// to be amended to //No piquing! There are no ducques!//-- Canuck, Feb 07 2008 That only works if you're from the north of England.-- nineteenthly, Feb 07 2008 I just noticed bigsleep has vanished. what's the story there?-- xaviergisz, Feb 09 2008 ////No peeking! There are no ducks!// to be amended to //No piquing! There are no ducques!////
No Peking Duck?? Shame....
And yeah, what did happen to Bigsleep?-- MaxwellBuchanan, Feb 09 2008 woof,-- po, Feb 09 2008 [+] for the "maybe". Both sides are right and this whole idea with annos is a great discussion. One of the best on HB. Thanks again jutta for the site!-- pashute, Oct 31 2008 random, halfbakery