h a l f b a k e r yNot so much a thought experiment as a single neuron misfire.
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This steel or aluminum band, cut from sheet metal, is punched with a special pattern, so that when stretched, sharp-edged points fold out. Fencing when erected is often tightened between posts, thus pulling out the three-dimensional barbs from the band. The pattern is punched at an angle to give them
knife edges.
A roll of barbed band is compact, and the product is easy and safe to handle until stretched. A band as wide as the height of a fence could also be produced to make a barrier that would be extremely difficult to get through or over. See diagram below.
diagram
http://www.geocitie...ie/barbedband.html?
[FarmerJohn]
similar concept, not as easy to transport or handle.
http://www.kosedag.com/razor_wire.asp [FarmerJohn, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 06 2004]
similar concept, not as easy to transport or handle.
http://www.kosedag.com/razor_wire.asp
[ato_de, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 05 2004]
other competitors
http://www.security...re_and_fencing.html
I think your concept is unique enough to actually patent. [ato_de, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 06 2004]
NRS 569.431
http://www.leg.stat...9.html#NRS569Sec431
Nevada statue concerning fencing [toiyabe, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 06 2004]
Concertina wire
http://www.defensel...109-A-4385T-009.jpg
[bungston, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 05 2004]
tn_IMG_0786
http://andyvw.net/p...epages/IMG_0786.php
Nevada statue concerning dam [waugsqueke, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 06 2004]
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Annotation:
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Another brilliant one, FJ. |
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ah! extreme christmas paper chains... |
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[FJ], do me a favour and keep this one under your hat. I do a lot of walking in the great outdoors and I hate having to jump fences with barbed wire. If Farmer Barleymow gets a hold of this stuff, I'm grounded! |
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Sheesh - this one's good enough to be patented - go for it! |
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So, you gonna razor fold? |
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[DrCurry]: You seriously think so?
[FJ]: If you seriously think so then delete this idea now and we'll all pretend it didn't exist until you've applied for the patent. |
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( + by the way - oh and razor fold: poker pun!) |
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I agree with [DC]. There's a lot of barbed wire sold in the world - great riches lie behind patenting a better process. |
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It certainly would be easier to handle - tight rolls instead of bulky bales. I wonder if the military would be interested in this? |
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I agree in principle to the benefits
and patentability of this one, but I
wonder what the difference in
length between flat and deployed
is? Looks like it might be
significant. If you lay out 50 feet,
and then need to stretch it x
percent, depending on x, you
could still end up having to handle
the "wire" in pokey form in order
to manipulate it into its final
placement. I suspect you've
already tested this with cut paper,
so these figures should be easy to
figure. |
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As I understand it, you generally deploy barbed wire from a spool on the back of a truck. You could have a little stretcher (two sets of wheels, one set spinning faster than the other) set up right next the spool as it unrolls. |
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Yep. I was thinking of fencing that
is stretched at about 100 ft
intervals. Never mind. [+] |
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You're right, a paper test gave 66% stretch (from 50 ft to 83 ft). |
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One way to install this would be to have a spool on the back of your tractor, and a brake that you can operate while driving that will stop the spool from unwinding. You nail the end of the unstretched band to the first fencepost, then start driving while letting the spool unwind. When you are 2/3 of the distance to the next fencepost you apply the brake so the spool stops unwinding and begins to stretch out what has already been unwound. |
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(You are clearly going to grow extremely wealthy off of this one, FJ.) |
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Right, FJ, but if you are stretching
it as you attatch it to each post,
that'll be ok. For fence systems
with many light weight posts in
between anchor posts every 100 ft
or whathaveyou, you can still
stretch it at each post, then attach
it, as has already been connected
to the last anchor post. But that
assumes a fairly finite final
stretched length, or the earlier
inbetween posts would start to
lean over as increasing load is put
on them. |
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Hence my stretcher part of the idea, so it's pre-stretched when it comes off the truck. No extra tension on the post required. |
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Yes. Both of you ( FJ and Worldg)
should take this outside and team
up on this one. That is, if you
want to spend the next year or two
becoming 'barb war' fence experts. |
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<weeps> will they still write when they are millionaires? |
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[oc] Nah, my part of the idea is quite baked for many applications - this one's all [FJ]. Oh, and far more barbed wire is used on ranches than in warfare. |
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[po] Hey, I'd write more often if I was a millionaire. In fact I'd have more time for halfbaking as well. (wanders off in a daydream) |
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world, I loved you when you had nothing!remember that! |
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You didn't know me when I had nothing. I don't think I've ever really had nothing. |
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[FJ] Did you really make a 50 ft. long paper model? |
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Did she look like Heidi Klum? |
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That's 'war', as in 'barb war' as in
Texas panhandle pronouniation of
wire, from Annie Proulx, _That Old
Ace in the Hole_. |
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Oh. In that case I'm sure [FarmerJohn] will be fine with it, considering his name is [FarmerJohn]. |
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FJ, I agree, this is definitely a money-maker. Get it outta here and get busy. |
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(I have always imagined that as good as the ideas are that you post here, the quality of the ones you must keep for yourself for investment purposes would be seriously amazing.) |
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Looking at your diagram, I think it might not be strong enough to be a livestock fence. To be a lawful fence in Nevada at least, the wire must take a horizontal load of 250 lbs. located midway between adjacent posts without stretching. I assume other open range states have similar laws. |
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I think this would stretch under such a load. |
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Everything stretches under any load, unless you know of magical rigid body barbed wire. I think if fullly stretched already, this could perform as well as barbed wire. |
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By "stretch" I meant "plastic deformation". I thought that would be obvious. |
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Thought: I wonder if the tensile strength would be negatively affected at the bend points. When fully stretched, there will be at least six points in each segment that are bent almost 180°. |
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Good points (heh). To perform as barbed wire for this test you'd probably have to wind it with regular wire. |
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If you were planning to make the fence entirely out of this stuff, you might be in trouble since it would tend to tear at the corners. However, you could make the fence out of regular straight wire, with a strip of barbed band at the top. (Am I correct in thinking that you only need barbs at approximately mid-cow height?) |
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[waugsqueke] I didn't steal your idea, I was responding to an idea that worldgineer edited into his prior post after I responded to him. I didn't see what you wrote before I wrote that. Still, I've deleted it. |
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In Nevada, at least you don't need barbs at all, you just need to meet the strength requirement. Still, just about every livestock fence seems to be barbed wire. I've linked to the governing law in case you're curious. |
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It does say "withstand" . I take that to mean without plastic deformation. Certainly if it's saggy it won't meet the height requirements. |
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Nope. Read it again. According to the law the wires must be at 12, 24, 36 and 48 inches (doesn't say that exactly, but the effect is the same). I guess you can get away with an inch or two either way. A little sag over a 20 foot run will exceed that easily. |
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Regardless, I presume from your handle that you're an engineer of some sort, and you should know that "withstand" and "plastic deformation" are mutually exclusive with regards to static loading (ok, maybe not is some wierd contexts if you want to be slippery, but not this context). |
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I guess I'm gettting over-pedantic. I agree that it is a great idea even if it suffers from some implementation issues. |
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WRT point 1, you got me. Still, no one will use this if you need more than four wires. |
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WRT point 2, I can't think of a single type of structure where significant plastic deformation does not constitute failure. Yes, "ductile failure" can be acceptable failure, and "britile failure" is unacceptable failure, but they are both failure. Energy absorbing structures (i.e. bicycle helmets) may be designed to deform under expected dynamic loading, but they still have failed and need to be replaced. |
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Also, you seem to have stipulated that this band will likely fail at the specified load when fully stretched. If so, then it will fail this test regardless of the prestretch, just absorb a lot of energy on its way. |
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Don't forget the difference
between razor wire and barbed
wire. This might be better suited
to razor wire applications, where it
isn't under any tension, but
applied in loose coils on the top of
a chain link fence to keep people
out (or in). Just a thought. |
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[ox], I was just going to say that about razor wire. You usually do not see razor wire used for livestock - it is for keeping people away. "Concertina" wire (link) is the application this would be good for. |
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Neither the phrase "barbed coaxial", nor the phrase "coaxial barbed" wire returns results on Google. |
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Problem. Totally stretched would tend
to flatten all the points back down again
(one of the 'hinge points' will be weaker
than the other), and would no longer
provide significant deterrence to a big
animal or a human with good gloves. |
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If it's partially stretched, then pressure
on the wire will stretch it more, and it
will sag to the ground. |
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//Totally stretched would tend to flatten all the points back down again// Incorrect. Try it with paper. At maximum stretch, the barbs continue to point outwards, and additional force will result eventually (depending on material thickness and strength) in shearing. |
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2fries: I'll see your fries and raise you 2 more. |
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I like it. You shall soon have collecters
lining up for a piece. + |
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Call. Full house, bullets over one eyed jacks. |
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Perhaps don;t even punch the stuff until you are installing it. As it rolls off the reel it feeds through a revolving punch wheel that puts the pattern in it.
Maybe customizable... You can have an option for ONE SIDED fencing. All the sharp pointies stick out of one side and on the other side its just smooth with holes. Might be good for certain types of livestock or poultry, or where you need to keep animals in (at the zoo) but don't want people walking by it to get snagged. |
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If you want to get really nasty, you can use your method to produce standard rolls of barbed wire (of the type suitable for military use) that in addition to the barbs, has sharp or serrated edges. The same machine that slits the flat metal tape can form the edges and a "puller" can tension the tape to extend the barbs. I imagine that the tape will have to be wide enough to allow rollers to engage the edges for a puller to work.
BTW, no one anywhere outside the US and CA will pay a penny for this one as the patent rights are already blown overseas - absolute novelty required. |
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ouch, that's evil looking stuff. |
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