h a l f b a k e r yTip your server.
add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random
news, help, about, links, report a problem
browse anonymously,
or get an account
and write.
register,
|
|
|
"The Virgin Earth Challenge is a prize of $25m for whoever can demonstrate to the judges' satisfaction a commercially viable design which results in the removal of anthropogenic, atmospheric greenhouse gases so as to contribute materially to the stability of Earth’s climate."
Sir Richard Branson and
former US Vice President Al Gore just announced this. See link.
Virgin Earth Challenge
http://www.virginearth.com/
The official site. [baconbrain, Feb 09 2007]
HHO video
http://gadgetcrunch.net/?cat=11
[daseva, Feb 10 2007]
Tree Planting doesn't work...
http://www.newbuild...llStory.asp?ID=1827
... except in the tropics [xenzag, Feb 12 2007]
USA = we want everything !
http://www.worldpop...op/energy/index.php
USA- the greediest nation on earth [xenzag, Feb 13 2007]
Technology: Evil or *really* evil? Discuss it here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/overbaked/
[jutta, Feb 15 2007]
Richard Watson
http://www.guardian.../0,,2012299,00.html
the real solution lies with folk like this [xenzag, Feb 15 2007]
Idea Saves Planet! Do You Have One?
http://greenchallenge.info/
The PICNIC Green Challenge is calling on creative minds to come up with solutions to fight global climate change. The prize is EUR 500,000. The deadline for idea submissions is 30 August, 2007. [jurist, Aug 08 2007]
[link]
|
| |
It would be funny if we could combine 50 or 100 existing halfbakery ideas in order to create a CO2 remover. If it's "commercially viable", they'll pretty much have to bake them, don't you think? |
|
| |
Then we'll finally have our Hullaballoon, 50-mile-long bird feeder seesaw, Two Coffee Cups thing, Fart Colorizer, and everything else that can be made out of the CO2 machine parts. |
|
| |
Fascinating, but the honor falls to me to be the first to point out that this is inappropriate for the 'bakery. |
|
| |
I think it's fine. It's a little specific and non-halfbaked and I could do without the advertising, but the price is really large, it's a topic of general interest to a lot of halfbakers, and it's not like this category is overflowing with traffic. |
|
| |
Amongst the Terms and Conditions:
"The removal achieved by the Design
must have long term benefits
(measured over say 1,000 years) and
must contribute materially to the
stability of the Earth’s climate."
The word "measured" (as opposed to
"measurable") worries me. Frankly we'd
be a lot better
off just investing a dollar today and
then waiting. |
|
| |
Damn. And I thought it was finally my turn. Oh well, at least I got to refer somebody to the help file last week. |
|
| |
I think the ocean iron fortification plan has the best chance of accomplishing this goal, cheaply. |
|
| |
If Branson kept his fleet of planes on
the ground it would be a start, but the
focus of the whole notion is
diversionary... it's a bit like adding
bleach to ink stained water in order to
make it run clear again. |
|
| |
Stop sending so much C02 into the
atmosphere instead of imagining that
you can keep doing it, if only there was
a magical way of extracting it back out
again. |
|
| |
It's crap logic, that favours even more
pollution and I for one am "agin it'. I
can't stand Branson - he's a smarmy
arse. Gore should know better than to
be part of this naive, greenwashed
drivel, which is just another marketing
tool for Virgin products. |
|
| |
Go on, call me cynical. I'll take it as a
compliment. |
|
| |
[cynical], you have your points. But, I would suggest considering what has become of similar challenges in the past. The X PRIZE got us a cool plane, and Ghiberti's doors aren't all that bad, either. Hey, how about this HHO stuff? (linky) |
|
| |
Yeah well, it doesn't look any different than the joecell does it?. Google it, and google water powered cars. people have been doing this since the seventies. |
|
| |
It seems to me that the only sensible thing to do is plant more trees and lots of them, I mean lots. |
|
| |
anthropogenic CO2 sounds bad, What's it made of? This is going to be hard sorting the good natural CO2 from the bad Anthropogenic kind. I should study up on my homopathic science. As I recall they say that the water has a memory of it's surounding molecules. The anthropogenic CO2 probably has a tortured memory of the rich industrialist that must be responsible for creating it. We can probably round up all the CO2 and test it on plants and animals to see which kind it is. They will surely have a reaction like getting cancer or growing ten times as big and start glowing or something if it is the antropogenic kind. |
|
| |
The challenge doesn't specify CO2 directly, although CO2 is recognised as the primary contributor, there are other gases that are antropogenic, greenhouse gases. Since SF6 is in a recent idea (room full of SF6), it is notable that it has about 25,000 times more greenhouse effect. |
|
| |
well done Mrs Branson - apparently it was her idea. |
|
| |
Mrs. B. is very under-appreciated then. I
bet she didn't even get credit for the pickle
recipe. |
|
| |
I too am going to sound cynical, but so
bit it. |
|
| |
Richard Branson is an incredible self-
publicist. I'd like to think that this is all
about saving the planet, but I feel sure
much of it is about publicising the
Virgin Brand. Somewhat hypocritical to
be giving *just* $25m when his airlines,
trains and car sales companies are
contributing so dangerously to the
problem. |
|
| |
Also, this prize award seems to infer
that a single idea, a single genius might
solve the impending environmental
chaos. Truthfully, this is a problem for
us all to solve, by significantly changing
the way we all live. |
|
| |
So, don't give this prize another
thought. Don't put energy into thinking
how you might solve the planet's
environmental woes. *Do* put the same
energy into making changes in your
own life to reduce your own carbon
footprint. |
|
| |
If we all do it, we've got a chance. |
|
| |
I think that is a tad unfair - its a wake-up call if nothing else, from someone who is world famous. |
|
| |
I believe there are smaller prizes for more minor ideas for healing the world. |
|
| |
its better than doing nothing at all which seems to be the case at present. |
|
| |
I agree with bungston, but this poses the question 'at what price?'. Would it be worth reducing greenhouse gases if the method severely impacted ocean ecology? |
|
| |
Similarly, almost any other 'solution' that I can think of will have some adverse (or at least changing) effect. Is any solution worse than the problem itself? Is the point of the prize to highlight this secondary question (rather than the primary question of how to remove greenhouse gases) ??? |
|
| |
[Xavier]//Would it be worth reducing
greenhouse gases if the method
severely impacted ocean ecology?// |
|
| |
One of the criteria against which entries
will be judged is:
"(f) harmful effects and/or other
incidental consequences of the
solution"
which suggests that this has already
been thought of. |
|
| |
I'm neither for nor against Mr. B as a
person, and I agree there is probably a
large element of self-promotion in this,
but I agree with Gumbob, Po and others
in thinking that, regardless of the
motivation behind it, it has at least
raised people's awareness and may also
motivate people who otherwise would
not be likely to propose ideas. |
|
| |
Since we're on the subject, has anyone seen a well-thought-out explanation as to why the simple model we were taught in school is not widely discussed, and seems not to be a significant factor?: |
|
| |
(Animals breathe in O2, breathe out CO2, whilst plants take in CO2 and produce O2. Therefore if an overage of CO2 exists, plants will find it easier to grow, hence absorbing the excess CO2.) |
|
| |
I'm sure this is naive, but I find it odd that I haven't seen reference to this effect in the hugely politicized discussion. |
|
| |
A 'no' vote with an explanation: using technology to fix problems created by technology is an oxymoron. What needs to be changed is behavior on a number of levels, especially the corporate profit mentality and government action that supports those interests over all else. |
|
| |
[csea] -the "overage" of CO2 has been discussed, especially in resepct to poison ivy, which apparently is more limited by lack of CO2 that is the case for other plants. |
|
| |
How about this for a scheme: Tundrea and boreal regions are warming up. Day lengths are long near the poles, and if it warm enough things grow like mad. I propose that forests be planted in areas previously too cold to support them. Most of these forests will simply be extensions of forests already existing at lower latitudes. The forests will get there eventually anyway, so we would just be giving them a leg up. Forests will sequester more CO2. |
|
| |
//using technology to fix problems
created by technology is an oxymoron// |
|
| |
Well, grammatically speaking it isn't. |
|
| |
But I disagree with the sentiment
anyway for two reasons. First, the
reality is that people always want more,
and will find ways of getting more. As a
species we invariably choose (and have
always chosen) high-energy
technologies because they do things we
like. If the only way to get more is to
find a technological patch, then that is
what they will do, and we ought to at
least make sure it's a good patch.
Restraint is alas only an interim
solution. |
|
| |
Second, the underlying sentiment is
that technology is inherently bad. Why,
exactly *is* it wrong to fix a
technological problem with a
technological solution? |
|
| |
//First, the reality is that people always
want more, and will find ways of getting
more// - then this is what needs
changed. I do not accept that this is
true, like some sort of categorical
imperative. (see Kant) |
|
| |
Not everyone wants more of everything,
except greed merchants like Richard
Branson. If he is so concerned, let him
give people free travel on his trains
instead - he could afford this with ease,
and set a noble trend. |
|
| |
//I do not accept that this is true//
Well, OK, we can agree to differ. On the
other hand, there's all of human history
to consider. I'm not saying it's
necessarily right, just that it's the way it
is and I do not think we are likely to
change in the twinkling of a century. |
|
| |
Suppose you have three alternatives:
(a) you give up technology (b) you keep
using technology even though it is
screwing up the planet or (c) you try to
improve technology so that it screws up
the planet less. People will go for
option (c) if they can; if all you offer
them is option (a), though, they'll just
stick with option (b). |
|
| |
I guess I just don't think that endless
mea culpas by a minority are going to
solve a problem which is caused by the
majority. |
|
| |
Branson is certainly full of himself, but I think it is hardly fair to blame the airline, rather than the passengers. For that matter, how about blaming the Internet for the rise in datacenter power consumption. |
|
| |
There may not be a miracle cure, but industrial innovation is actually more likely to solve the problem than any other approach. |
|
| |
Playing off of [bungston]'s last comment I wonder if someone shows that the planet is in equalibrium if they get a prize. |
|
| |
If there is no such promise isn't there no incintive to conclude such a thing? Is this prize a forgone conclusion? |
|
| |
What if a rise in temperature and more greenhouse gasses causes greenhouse gasses to be eleminated and temperatures to fall? |
|
| |
My science teacher went round and round with me back in 8th grade without giving me the answer. He said that the wobble in the tilt is responsible for ice ages. as the planet alligns you have warmer winters and cooler summers. I was confused about this which causes massive ice sheets? Colder winters or cooler summers? it is neither. Warmer winters allow for more precip. in the winter. |
|
| |
What I understand about CO2 global warming says warmer winters and unaffected summers. Longer growing seasons increased crop production due to CO2 advantage to crops. People build dykes all the time and people get flooded out all the time. I am sure Anthropogenic causes greatly affect the environment because we are dealing with Chaos theory. We have individually and severally been responsible for both Major disasters and the aversion of major disasters through our own infinitesimal input. It doesn't concern me if it is natural or not. Natural is an ocasional Metiorite mass extinction. I hope we plan on antropogenically averting such a thing. |
|
| |
Anthropogenic has got nothing to do with it. if we want our climite like we have been used to. then we will make it that way. Though people have built for nothing changing, I am not convinced it is worth the effort. |
|
| |
I want to divert the mississippi out west to west texas, new mexico and Arid-zona and constantly recycle CO2, probably have it piped in to algae farms It could work a lot like coal only a bit cleaner. Maybe do some biodesiel. If some rich guy wants to sequester some carbon I would be happy to sell him some and bury it for him for the right price. |
|
| |
I first need to develop a catalyst that converts atmospheric methane to ammonia and does it at "room temperature". Once I have that, I'll sell the rights to you for $1 million and good luck winning Virgin's challenge. |
|
| |
That would be cool My Roomate who was a chemistery major talked about some sort of "catylist" for fusion reactions. Once he figures that out I will steal it from him and maybe you can work it from there and get back to me. That would be impressive. I understand that antimatter can be used to start of fission reactions.
I just figure there has got to be an easier way though. |
|
| |
//"catylist" for fusion reactions//
Muons, I believe, are the thing. They
are effectively very heavy electrons, and
they help tritium and deuterium nuclei
get close enough together (as a D-T-µ
ensemble) to fuse. The main problem
as I understand it is that the muon has
a short half-life, and hence even though
the muons are only catalytic in the
fusion reaction, they still need to be
replenished, and energy needed to
make them is less than the yield from
the fusion. |
|
| |
/Muons, I believe, are the thing./ |
|
| |
[Maxwell], please consider appending this line on your personal identification page. It could go right under the single line you already have there. |
|
| |
That may be. He didn't know of anything but simply thought there should be something analogous to a catalyst. |
|
| |
I think it would be much easier to manufacture ammonia as we have been and burn and bind the methane. That has got to be easier than going from carbon into nitrogen. |
|
| |
\\ but I think it is hardly fair to blame the airline, rather than the passengers\\ [tc], you have a point that the customers have a degree of blameworthiness, but to reject the airline's culpability is like exonerating a drug dealer for catering to the demands of his clients. |
|
| |
"Al Gore's environmental activism comes with a hefty price tag" says the Daily Mail. The former presidential candidate turned climate change campaigner was invited to speak this week at the Tyndall Centre for climate change research. Mr Gore would be pleased to attend if they paid him £85,000 and three first-class return air fares from the US. Apparently they couldn't afford him. |
|
| |
hidden truths, this argument, taken to its logical extremes, is an absurdity. Should ambulances be driven by horses? Do you know if your computer is driven by electricity from a fossil fuel reactor? It's another flavor of a back to golden age argument that proved a loser during the industrial revolution, and will continue to lose. |
|
| |
True, but you admit that you're taking the argument to its extreme. Everything in moderation and all that. A reduction on the number of flights, or even only on those that cover relatively short distances (there are a ridiculous number of internal flights in the UK), would make a considerable difference to emission levels. |
|
| |
I gotta be honest, hidden, my interest is in the flying car, and buying property high in the mountaints :) |
|
| |
//Should ambulances be driven by
horses?// no - but neither should
children be taken to school in giant
petrol guzzling 4x4s, nor should folk
be forced to opt to fly between
Manchester and London for £20
because the equivalent train journey
costs £100+ This is madness. |
|
| |
Current global consumption of energy
and resources are not sustainable. The
USA, for example, has just 5% of the
world's
population but consumes 25% of the
planet's energy, and refuses to curb
their emissions. This cannot, and
should not continue, and there lies the
problem, because the USA is selfish,
greedy, bullies the rest of the world,
and has a president with the intellectual
capacity of a jar of pickled eggs, who
refuses to even accept that this is a man
made problem. This is because he is
just a hollowed-out mouthpiece for
Exxon/Mobil who put him in office to
act as their dancing monkey. |
|
| |
see link for greed statistics. |
|
| |
//The USA, for example, has just 5% of
the world's population but consumes
25% of the planet's energy, and refuses
to curb their emissions. This cannot,
and should not continue, and there lies
the problem, because the USA is selfish,
greedy, bullies the rest of the world,
and has a president with the intellectual
capacity of a jar of pickled eggs, who
refuses to even accept that this is a man
made problem. This is because he is
just a hollowed-out mouthpiece for
Exxon/Mobil who put him in office to
act as their dancing monkey.//
And? |
|
| |
and that is the root of the problem - cut
the emissions at source, because once
they reach the atmosphere it is too late,
except the greatest source is under the
control of a moron. |
|
| |
I don't think you should bandy words like
that lightly. "Control" - indeed! |
|
| |
breaks into a song - "I see a bad muon
arising..." |
|
| |
xenzag, without greed, you'd still be sitting by the campfire waiting for someone to through a bone. But, I don't think that this is likely to be a productive conversation |
|
| |
[theircompetitor] - and with greed, we'll
all be back around those campfires. |
|
| |
Except there might not be any wood left... |
|
| |
//Second, the underlying sentiment is that technology is inherently bad. Why, exactly *is* it wrong to fix a technological problem with a technological solution?// |
|
| |
It's is not that technology in itself is bad, just that bad technology is. Using another technology to correct the effects of bad one does not solve the problem, at best it simply masks it. The best approach to solving problems created by technology is to improve, refine or replace the problem causing technology. |
|
| |
In far as the Virgin Earth Challenge goes, the Earth is no virgin by any measure. The search for a magic bullet is classic misdirection: years go by with no change while the race for a 'cure' goes on. Direct action such as limiting CO2 emissions, taxing them to spur alternative energy production, reforestation, etc., are far more direct actions, all of which would have an immediate impact on the problem. |
|
| |
//Using another technology to correct
the effects of bad one does not solve
the problem, at best it simply masks
it.// That sounds inherently good and
wise, but there is no substance to it.
Why doesn't it solve the problem? |
|
| |
The greatest (though not only)
objection to burning fossil fuels is that
they cause pollution, of which CO2 is
the main concern at present. If you can
find a good way to remove that
pollution, then I don't see why that is
not a pretty good answer. |
|
| |
//That sounds inherently good and wise, but there is no substance to it. Why doesn't it solve the problem?// |
|
| |
The problems created by the first technology still exist. If the second (repair) technology breaks down, the first problem re-arises (optimistically assuming the second technology has completely eliminated it and that is has no negative effects of its own). |
|
| |
Dependence on multiple technologies is far worse than dependence on one. Cascade failure becomes a real possibility (probability?) when multiple technologies depend on each other to function 'properly'. |
|
| |
You have possibly the best username ever. |
|
| |
I kind of agree with you. When dealing with chaotic systems (+1)+(-1) doesn't always = 0. It's like snorting some cocaine, then taking a hit of smack to calm yourself down. Not good for the long-term viability of the organism. Better to reduce the amount of stimulant entering the system. |
|
| |
good - then most of us are in
agreement that Branson's "idea" is
simply about him marketing himself
and his airline, because the real
solution lies in cutting back the man
made CO2 emissions at source - and
he's never going to make an award for
that suggestion. |
|
| |
The whole package comes under the
collective term of "greenwash", and if I
had a hundred bones I'd drown this
sickening "idea" with them. |
|
| |
see last link for info on a real
environmental hero. |
|
| |
//Dependence on multiple technologies
is far worse than dependence on one//
Well, I see your point. On the other
hand, most of the technologies that we
are "happy" with are, in fact, multiple
technologies. Electricity is dangerous,
so you use insulated cables or out-of-
reach overhead lines. Hydrogen (as a
fuel) is explosive, so we try to find ways
to contain or adsorb it and make it safe.
Most technologies are like this.
Suppose you could build a car which
burned hydrocarbon fuel and emitted,
say, chalk rather than CO2 (this isn't
meant as a serious example) by virtue
of some sort of exhaust-side convertor.
Would you be OK with that? If not, why
not? |
|
| |
I'm not dismissing your argument, and
sure it would be nice if all the
technology we wanted was inherently
clean and safe "right out of the box".
But it is not going to be, and I think in
the long run we will do a lot, lot better
to recognise that fact and do our best
to make good the shortcomings of what
we have. |
|
| |
For most of human existance, practically all people lived in misery. It figures that when that finally changed for any significant fraction of people, the chorus would be for making sure that everyone is miserable again. Your argument was used against the wheel, I'm sure. |
|
| |
I spent my entire life making sure that I don't live like the 7Billion people, certainly not about to start worrying about that now. |
|
| |
//For most of human existance, practically all people lived in misery.// |
|
| |
Hmmm. Where is the basis for that? |
|
| |
Before Columbus, islanders lived in a virtual paradise where the tropical climate provided an easily harvested bounty upon which to live. Eskimos, like so many other native people, were so finely adapted to their environment that they lived entirely in tune with nature. |
|
| |
That these people did not have television or internet or exhaust spewing automobiles or world wide wars does not make them less happy or civilized. A strong argument to the contrary can easily be made ... |
|
| |
So, if all these people lived in paradise,
how come every civilisation that has
been exposed to the best and worst of
civilisation has opted for t-shirts, tv's,
cars, alcohol, processed food,
corrugated iron..... seems that they are
voting with their feet, albeit not always
very wisely.
Could it have something to do with
the fact that paradise often involves
death through minor illnesses, sharing
your intestinal tract and bloodstream
with numerous parasites, starving or
freezing to death from time to time... |
|
| |
Sorry if I sound especially cynical. I
just don't believe that our future lies in
the past. |
|
| |
.... but that doesn't justify the type of
unconstrained greed that is destroying
the very world we live on. No one is
denying the benefits of technology, but
something needs to change, and some
restraint and cutting back, especially on
the part of
those who already consume 25% of
everything, isn't an unreasonable
request. |
|
| |
But it IS an unreasonable request, and greed is a flawed human label put on fundamental biological principles. Our desire to live better is not some Easter Island culture putting up statues to stop the waves -- it is the only thing that has made any substantive difference in the quality of life for any measurable number of beings in the history of the planet. |
|
| |
No doubt we should implement intelligent policies. But we should do it without hysteria. |
|
| |
\\For most of human existance, practically all people lived in misery. It figures that when that finally changed for any significant fraction of people, the chorus would be for making sure that everyone is miserable again\\ I respectfully disagree. What 'the chorus' wants is sustainable living. The ones who are ensuring misery for all in the future are those who insist on using a disproportionate and unsustainable amount of resources. |
|
| |
[jutta]'s right, this is an overbaked discussion. |
|
| |
//some restraint and cutting back// I
agree that we need to avoid wrecking the
place with dirty technology. However, the
ultimate aim of technology is, frankly, to
give us what we want without unwanted
side effects. Restraint is an unsustainable
and short-term necessity until we can do
better. |
|
| |
If you need some cash SOON and don't want to wait until 2010 to find out if your idea to save the planet has won the Virgin Earth Challenge, check out the PICNIC Green Challenge which is calling for ideas this month. (see Link) |
|
| |
I have the solution. It's easy and obvious. How do I get the money??? |
|
| |
[thathatisis], ask the government and the public taxpayers. You won't have to hand over the idea, or even mention it. Jusk ask. It worked for Bush. Didn't work for me, but I think that the US Military doesn't like Canadians. Or weird people. |
|
| |