h a l f b a k e r yNot so much a thought experiment as a single neuron misfire.
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For those of us that play the the guitar, but are devoid of any genuine musical talent, I present instant chord read-out, an add-on for CD players.
Purely and simply, the CD player scans ahead a few bars to work out what the chord is going to be in, say, 5 seconds time, and then displays it on it's
LCD panel or, if it's a PC, on screen somewhere (it could even show you the chord-box style fingering).
// addition
Actually, if it's on your PC, there's no reason why it couldn't also actually go an grab the 'actual' chords from somewhere like olga, as well as deducing them electronically.
her name is olga, she lives on the second floor
http://www.olga.net/
a good starting point for guitar tab/chords [neilp, Oct 05 2004, last modified Oct 21 2004]
Yamaha EZ-EG Guitar
http://www.giles.co.../pac/pkb/ez-eg.html
[krelnik, Oct 05 2004, last modified Oct 21 2004]
tabtastic
http://www.guitartabs.cc/home.php
50000 guitar tabs [sufc, Oct 05 2004, last modified Oct 21 2004]
chordtastic
http://chordfind.com/guitar/
chord and scale finder for guitar [sufc, Oct 05 2004, last modified Oct 21 2004]
[link]
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i like it ... although, it does take away the show off factor for those that can tell the chords without your new tech. |
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noo.. it very much highlights their talent |
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I assume that you play guitar in front of the CD Player.
Stop.
Shut Down CD Player.
Play some music.
p.s. What about lead?.
Hell for that matter what about 'Metallica' or 'Extreme' rhythm guitar. Too fast for 5 seconds ad not just chords! |
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[gnome] - I meant chord. I don't normally play with a CD on, only when I'm trying to work out how to play a particular song and can't work out, or find the chords anywhere.
P.S. curiously, my sub-talent doesn't have too much problem picking out the lead, it's just chords I can't work out. |
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timing wise, the 5 seconds thing can be changed to anything from half a second to .. 11 (spinal tap style) |
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OK. Back to the invention. It would have to be a bespoke creation for the guitarist. I assume that you have visited various guitar tab websites?. Tell me how this invention works and I willgive you a bun.
As a helpful hint for playing - I tend to go through some tab and then play some to the CD before going back to the CD etc for the hard stuff.
If I have no tab I play 'make it up blues' until I know the tuning and the chord patterns. I usually know the key cos I am blessed with a *reasonable* ear. |
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[gnome] - a simple software enhancement to CD players. Surely your average s/w engineer can pick out the guitar chord from the music stream ?
I'm fine if I've got the tab, obv, this is just for when there is no tab, and I'm getting no-where with the 'make it up' blues. |
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Um, The guitar chords can sometimes be picked up but not retrospectively from a full mix (unless they are *VERY* discreet.
This is not a software function that can be easily rendered (IMHO) due to the range of frequencies and chops.
How does the software/software engineer know when a guitar is playing? |
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surely (!) the software could just synthesize every possible chord combination and compare them with what's playing.. throw sheer processor at the problem ? |
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For an alternative approach, see "Guitar Tutor" in this category (halfbaked version) or the Yamaha EZ-EG guitar (baked version). That approach has lights in the fret board that show you where to put your fingers, but of course the guitar has to have MIDI data to drive that from. (The Yamaha product has 36 songs and can have others loaded into it). |
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hi [krelnik] I like both of those ideas, but they only work when someone, somewhere has written down what the chords/tab/notes are for a particular song. What I'm looking for is something which will try and deduce these from the sound track. (indeed Instant Talent would be a useful add-on for the LED type things) |
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In that case neil, it can't be done in real time, or even five seconds afterwards, or ever. Again, how does the software recognise (e.g) 6 notes in a piece of music that happen to be a chord played on the same instrument that happens to be the same guitar line?.
Remember thatthere could be 2 tracks of the same instrument playing 2 different lines/harmonies. How is the program to know?? |
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[gt] I'm sure it's not going to be perfect, but the tool is aimed (hopefully obviously) at the less talented end of the market, who will have to cope with it not being able to give results for trickier songs.
what did you think about the synthesis/comparison approach, whereby the software simply tries out a collection of chords, plays them against the piece of music and calculates which is a best fit ? |
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Um, I now get the point that it is a step by step pick-the bones-out tool. I still don't think it is easy to pick an individual instrument line out of anything.
OK, if the song is *really* simple (1 guitar, NO synth, bass and drums) then the guitar line reasonable clear BUT:
How do we account for different sound effects(of which there are many!)?
How do we account for different chord shapes (e.g. first inversions - I get the point that the song has to be *simple* but even so I can play a G5 chord in about 7 different ways at a conservative estimate)
To conclude, without knowing how this device works (you haven't made the technology clear) I think the song would have to be so simple that the meanest guitarist would already know the chord.
I don't want to bring a downer on you but I think it is unworkable for all but the simplest noise - have you ever put a guitar through an oscilloscope? |
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// ever put a guitar through an oscilloscope? //
That sounds like fun! About what velocity? |
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OK, so the guitar dopplered as it screamed through the tube and the Instant Talent device picked up the wrong chord.
You got me [lurch]! (mind you, as it smashed through the screen it would have made a great 80's Metal album cover) |
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What about non-standard tunings? This thing could describe a chord that is unplayable on a normal EADGBE tuned guitar could it not? |
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I think there is an assumption on [gnome]'s part that the only way to get a chord is to somehow pick out the individual notes - on the guitar. When I reconstruct a chord from a recording (guitar, piano, multiple instruments, etc.), I look for notes that are compatible with the chord (ideally a root) and then narrow down options until I get a good fit. The exact chord is also typically reinforced by other instruments and melodies rather than obscurred. I see no reason why software could not work similarly - i.e., trial and error reconstruction - with extensive background knowledge about chord construction and progressions - even within musical genres. |
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It may not get you the exact guitar chord, but will get you close enough to improvise - which I think is where [neilp] was headed. My approach is just one alternative to [gnome]. I suspect that some smart grad student could come up with lots of others. |
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I still use that approach myself [dweeb]. The thing is that we as humans and musicians are accustomed to interpreting the difference between e.g. guitar/bass and guitar/piano.
I wholeheartedly agree that other instruments should augment a chord too, and that sometimes you only need to get close enough to improvise.
My problem is with an auto scanning device that picks up a guitar chord. I am suggesting that it cannot pick up what the guitar is playing as it would not be sensitive/flexible enough to distinguish between e.g. a high Bass Guitar note and a Low 6 string, particularly as the keyboards are getting in the way at the same time.
BTW, aren't our ears wonderful? |
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"For those of us that play the the guitar, but are devoid of any genuine musical talent".... oh, you mean bass guitarists? |
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What do you call a guy who follows
musicians around? |
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And then there's the guys who's girlfriends support them - drummers. |
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