h a l f b a k e r yA riddle wrapped in a mystery inside a rich, flaky crust
add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random
news, help, about, links, report a problem
browse anonymously,
or get an account
and write.
register,
|
|
|
[edit: moved the word annually a few words back for
clarity, and changed the spelling from anually to annually
and from whine to whine]
This generator does not need extreme distillation and can
work directly on the alcoholic vapor from the heated
beverage
at 80-90%. No storage tank.
I
read that a cooler fire makes for a better running engine,
so
the water vapor is taking in some of the heat, but you get a
cheaper and longer-lasting engine.
Since there is no storage tank and almost no pressure, how
would one go about this.
I'm thinking about a continuous fire going through the
engine.
Then what? Is only a steam engine viable? I'm talking
practical. I annually have about 1M liters of 10%+ wine.
And in addition I'll have tons of biologic waste which emit
ethanol, and which I wish NOT to store.
Same for cow-farm rooftop ethanol capture device.
One-Million-Liter Test Sphere
https://en.wikipedi...n-Liter_Test_Sphere
A visual aid for anyone who wants to see how big a million liters is. See the photos linked in the external links section for better views. [notexactly, Jan 10 2017]
About our and other animal's culture
https://www.youtube...watch?v=bvBeQGbaj0E
Following Israeli prof. Amotz Zahavi's ideas [pashute, Jan 15 2017]
[link]
|
| |
// I have about 1M liters of 10%+ wine annually |
|
| |
<sits with mouth open> You're a better man than me. I am amazed you can find the keyboard. |
|
| |
But seriously, I think it's quite hard work (at least for the yeast) to make the alcohol, so surely the problem would be a lack of alcohol, rather than their being too much? |
|
| |
Yeah, you could run a steam en (breaks off to kill the cockroach on the floor, chants 'nam myo renge kyo' 3 times for its soul) gine, or a jet engine. |
|
| |
The most efficient heat engines are large scale steam turbine based generating plants. |
|
| |
1000 tonnes of wine, 10 tonnes of alcohol. |
|
| |
Spot price of JP-1 is about USD 40¢/litre. |
|
| |
Neglecting differences in density, and enthalpy of combustion, that's going to cost USD $4000. |
|
| |
Your process efficiency and ROCE is going to have to be pretty good to achieve any sort of payback. |
|
| |
//// 1M liters of 10%+ // |
|
| |
1000 tonnes of wine, 10 tonnes of alcohol. // |
|
| |
BZZZZT. Shirley that would be 100 tonnes of alcohol?
Unless the process is only 10% efficient? |
|
| |
I think I've said it before, but grapes are an inefficient
way of making alcohol, if the end game is volume of
alcohol, not something nice to drink. I can't help but
think you're better off selling the wine as wine. |
|
| |
There's got to be a whine/wine pun in here somewhere. |
|
| |
Has nobody thought to ask [pashute] WHY HE HAS ONE MILLION LITRES OF WINE????? |
|
| |
[pashute], why do you have one million litres of wine? |
|
| |
I vote a crack team of halfbakers go visit pashute and see what we can do with this wine problem. |
|
| |
"You're gonna need a bigger liver." |
|
| |
On a separate line of thought, instead of making an alcohol fueled generator, has anyone ever considered using a vinegar/soda chemical reaction to power a turbine? It might be worthwhile to allow the original wine to turn to vinegar if the market is glutted or if the product is otherwise unpleasant to consume. |
|
| |
How does one come by 1 million liters of excess wine? I
have the opposite problem, all products containing
ethanol tend to dispose of themselves in my house,
there isn't much of a pattern although I have noticed
the gin disappears in a linear relationship with the
limes. |
|
| |
The problem with ethanol, is that it's not that
energetic. You could make vinegar out of it. This is the
traditional thing to do with excess wine which tends to
solve its own storage stability problems. You even get a
bit of heat energy out of that, but even 1 million liters
of wine is only about 450,000kJ or about 125kWhrs, so
only $10-20 worth of heat. Unless you han an insurance
policy AGAINST the wine becoming vinegar, then that
could be... fortunate. |
|
| |
Getting the ethanol out of the solution is what you're
asking. You've suggested running the engine on the
vapor from heated wine* and that can work. If you're
clever you can put together a heat exchanger which will
utilize the generator exhaust heat to gasify the ethanol.
Do monitor the generator if water vapor is going in the
front end, oil contamination is the big problem there. |
|
| |
If you really want to burn ethanol, what will really help
is upping the ethanol concentration in the first place.
The yeast in winemaking is good for making nice
beverages, but average at making ethanol. There are
yeast strains with a more pronounced work ethic, that
can get you to almost 30%, and some bacteria that will
get higher still. Those concentrations make the whole
project a lot more workable. There's no better way of
driving ethanol out of an aqueous solution than
increasing the ethanol in solution to start with. |
|
| |
This would give you a system of a: a tank/fermenter
with all your waste/feedstock and a high ethanol
proucing strain of microbe b: a filtered take off from
the tank removing ethanol-rich liquid c: an exhaust
powered heat exchanger to heat the liquid and drive
off ethanol d: a return line to the tank, cooled
preferably by the initial take off. The whole thing could
run continuously with a nice feedback system in place.
The faster you remove the ethanol, the faster the
microbes make more of it because you're removing the
main inhibition. Conversely, turn off the generator and
the whole system slows down as it reaches equilibrium.
Sort of a biological governor. |
|
| |
* I do hope this is crappy wine.. |
|
| |
I can't help feeling that we're being distracted by the science here. The question is still: [pashute] how and why do you have one million litres of wine?? |
|
| |
As for energy recovery, do you live on a hilltop? If so, pour the wine down a big pipe with a turbine in the middle. This has the advantage that you can then walk down the hill and drink the wine. |
|
| |
//I have about 1M liters of 10%+ whine annually.// |
|
| |
//Has nobody thought to ask [pashute] WHY HE HAS ONE MILLION LITRES OF WINE?????// |
|
| |
That's annually, too. How many acres does that correspond to? |
|
| |
Anyway, stop whining and make brandy. |
|
| |
And maybe vodka with the "biologic waste".. |
|
| |
//Has nobody thought to ask [pashute] WHY HE HAS ONE MILLION LITRES OF WINE???? |
|
| |
Objection y'r honour, my client doesn't have to answer that. |
|
| |
Anyone here have 20,000 kgs of excess cheese annually? I
know for a fact that there's lots of Halfbakers who are already
crackers. |
|
| |
Answer: A Jewish ritual, according to religious law which
initially in ancient times was supposed to fund the
teachers off the agricultural produce , is today used in
various ways with olive-oil, wheat, and other produce, but
the wine from Jewish-owned wineries is just poured out. |
|
| |
Wine, olives, honey, and milk are all part of a major
industry in Israel, due to the nostalgic historical part they
played as local produce during the biblical, Helenic and
Roman periods. Exciting archaelogical discoveries
confirmed this, and the returning Jews were determined to
reestablish these practices. |
|
| |
I read that in France, every year several million liters of
excess whine are disposed of due to market reasoning. |
|
| |
//whine from Jewish-owned wineries// |
|
| |
The clue as to the spelling of "wine" is to be found in the word "wineries". |
|
| |
//just poured out// Oy vey!! Now, you see, this is why (well, OK, one of many reasons why) I have problems with religion. |
|
| |
You start out with something sensible - like "everyone gives a share of their produce to support teachers"; or "it's a bit insensitive to cook a calf in its mother's milk". |
|
| |
Then, 2000 years later, these initially reasonable ideas have become transformed into "Let's pour a million litres of wine down the drain" or "cheeseburgers are a sin". |
|
| |
Seriously, you guys are loopy. And when I say "you guys" I mean almost everyone. |
|
| |
Oy Vey is right! Now wy did I think whine whas spellt
whith a
dhouble yhew? |
|
| |
But if I correct it, no one will understand the annos.... |
|
| |
The book of Numbers records in detail my ancestors'
whining. |
|
| |
And yes, I was hoping no-one would ask. |
|
| |
Actually, we like to think of ourselves as holding these
rituals which cause us (hopefully) to raise moral questions
and to try at least to sometimes care for all humans and
for the other sentient beings on this earth. Oh, and with
the help of Halfbakers there won't be a million liters of
wine poured out anymore either. |
|
| |
//we like to think of ourselves as holding these rituals which cause us (hopefully) to raise moral questions and to try at least to sometimes care for all humans// |
|
| |
Yes, I get that, and it is a noble idea. But it's also very dumb. Why not try the following instead: |
|
| |
(a) Raise the moral questions but then
(b) Instead of throwing away perfectly good wine and food, actually sell or donate it to help care for all humans? |
|
| |
What you're doing at the moment (and probably for the last century or so, I'm guessing) is roughly the equivalent of saying "Let's burn down houses to make us think of the plight of homeless people!" |
|
| |
Dumb, dumb, dumbity dumb. A century of unquestioned dumbth. |
|
| |
I had assumed the 1M was a typo of some sort. |
|
| |
I wonder if in a cylinder engine, as the cylinder rises it might reduce pressure or even pull a vacuum over the wine. This would facilitate evaporation of the ethanol, which then ignites driving the piston up all the way. |
|
| |
But the wine - why not let dairy cattle drink it? The water contained is of good quality and it has caloric value. As ruminants who generate loads of ethanol in their stomachs, cows are probably immune to getting drunk. |
|
| |
According to my sources (Google and Google), cows can indeed get drunk. |
|
| |
I should clarify: alcohol per body mass to inebriation is greater for ruminants than for nonruminants like cats, dogs and ourselves. |
|
| |
I initially read about feeding domesticated animal ethanol in the context of an innocentive challenge seeking a way to make pigs fatten up that was cheaper than corn. I am not sure what the status of pig farming might be in Israel. Cows I think are a safe bet. |
|
| |
I read about this in the context of trying to understand the country song where the singer requests "whisky for my men and beer for my horses". It turns out horses love beer (for the flavor) and do not get drunk. |
|
| |
Yet I have also read than elephants seek out fermented fruit and eat it to inebriation. It should be the most difficult of all to get elephants drunk as physiologically they are scaled up horses. |
|
| |
" I read about this in the context of trying to understand the country song where the singer requests "whisky for my men and beer for my horses". It turns out horses love beer (for the flavor) and do not get drunk." |
|
| |
I think your sources are inaccurate. I gave my horses beer many times, under controlled conditions, and they became visibly relaxed. If I'd made bigger doses available I could have had a thousand pound drunk, but that was not appropriate. |
|
| |
Did your horses relax for other treats - like a sugar cube or apple? Excess wine, perchance? |
|
| |
It makes sense that an animal with a belly full of fermenting vegetables should be endowed with an arsenal of metabolic enzymes to cope with ethanol. |
|
| |
They had no other reaction to food other than to eat it. |
|
| |
A horses gut might have a high tolerance for live cultures, but they are affected by alcohol just like the rest of us. |
|
| |
OK, I added some interesting material with sources about
intoxication in animals to the Alcohol intoxication article on
Wikipedia. I think its an interesting read (and watch, if they
don't remove my youtube ref) |
|
| |