h a l f b a k e r yInvented by someone French.
add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random
news, help, about, links, report a problem
browse anonymously,
or get an account
and write.
register,
|
|
|
There are commercial oxygen carrying blood
replacement
fluids called perfluorocarbons [link].
If you drink oxygen dissolving perfluorocarbon (blood
substitute) does it get absorbed to the circulatory system
with your circulatory fluids? Wikipedia says it does.
Drinking perfluorocarbons
could be an oral
therapy for people with pulmonary (COPD) and heart
oxygenation difficulties. It may also be a way to
voluntarily
increase athletic performance. One of the
perfluorocarbons at the wikipedia [link] looks polar to
me, and the other looks nonpolar. Making a more highly
polar version could cause some uptake from oral dosing.
Another oral dosing approach is to put the
perfluorocarbon in liposomes which do pass through the
GI tract to have various contents absorbed.
Also, it might be possible to use some hypertransport of
imbibed fluids technology like ORT (Oral rehydration
therapy) to preferentially transport the perfluorocarbon
to
the circulatory system.
Preventing SIDS (sudden infant death syndrome) with oral
perfluorocarbons: When the baby at the 2-6th month
highest risk interval is fed
perfluorocarbon It enters the Baby's circulatory system,
imaginably increasing oxygen carrying capacity 40-
80%.
Then if the baby spontaneously stops breathing (SIDS(?))
it
has 40-80% longer to restart its breathing.
Reading wikipedia suggests you get almost full coverage
if you have babies drink it from just age 2 months to 6
months
One benefit to babies from preventing SIDS, along with
being alive, is that precluding and curing SIDS makes it so
people can start putting toys and blankets back in cribs
providing a snugglier environment for the baby.
perfluorocarbon
https://en.wikipedi...rfluorocarbon_based
[beanangel, Apr 29 2021]
IV perfluorocarbons rescue body tissue (lung) from ischemia
https://journals.pl...ournal.pone.0087826
[beanangel, Apr 29 2021]
perfluorocarbons are just $5-$8/Kg
https://www.alibaba...rbon&viewtype=&tab=
Not medical grade, medical grade is $1000/Kg [beanangel, Apr 29 2021]
Perflourocarbons are used in artificial blood.
https://science.how...20like...%20More%20
[Voice, Apr 30 2021]
Gut-PFC O2 exchange.
https://www.the-sci...o4Wd0tJbqu46DwiA4tk
[bs0u0155, May 20 2021]
Please log in.
If you're not logged in,
you can see what this page
looks like, but you will
not be able to add anything.
Destination URL.
E.g., https://www.coffee.com/
Description (displayed with the short name and URL.)
|
| |
[a1] the perfluorocarbon does not actually carry a load of
oxygen from being swallowed. It joins the circulatory fluids
and then carries extra oxygen the baby breathes in through
its lungs. This is sort of like when athletes transfuse their
own blood back into themselves so they have say 140%
oxygen carrying capacity compared with 100%. |
|
| |
So perfluorocarbon can hand off oxygen to heme? |
|
| |
Sleeping with the mother is the best thing for the baby. |
|
| |
[a1] The wikipedia link says, "PFC solutions can carry oxygen
so well that mammals, including humans, can survive
breathing liquid PFC solution, called liquid breathing." |
|
| |
[a1] that is the new to me idea part: that if you can rinse
your lungs with it it is likely safe to drink. Thanks for
asking because I got to incorporate the part about ORT in
the description. |
|
| |
1) why do I believe it will diffuse through the GI tract to
replace plasma volume; will it get peed out? |
|
| |
reply to 1) a perfluorocarbon is actually kind of like a
fluorinated branched alkane, if you want it to be even
more polar than it is you just change a couple atoms on
it. Making a polar version of perfluorocarbon could cause
it to avidly pass from the GI tract to the circulatory
system |
|
| |
Also, you might have heard of Oral rehydration therapy,
they can mix some sugar and salt into water and it
becomes like 160% more rapid at passing into the body
than freshwater. I think ORTPerfluorocarbon solutions are
possible, so that could make it 160% better at getting
absorbed into the body than perfluorocarbon alone |
|
| |
//if you can rinse your lungs with it it is likely safe to
drink// - what?! |
|
| |
injecting perfluorocarbons causes sufficient increased
oxygen carrying capacity to keep lab mammals alive by
circumventing ischemia [link] |
|
| |
So, babies drinking perfluorocarbons makes them asphyxia
resistant and there is more time for their breathing to
automatically restart without injury to the baby. |
|
| |
//is fed perfluorocarbon It enters the Baby's circulatory
system,// |
|
| |
Animal life would be in pretty bad shape if everything we
ate just ended up in the circulatory system. We have a
whole organ system to control that process. Unmodified
perfluorocarbons aren't water soluble, and as a artificial
compound there won't be a receptor or transporter. So, it
will likely just come out the other end with all the other
stuff the body doesn't know what to do with. |
|
| |
//perfluorocarbon can hand off oxygen to heme?// It
should happen in both directions depending on the pO2.
You also need some intervening medium like water for the
O2 to move between. |
|
| |
//Making a polar version of perfluorocarbon could cause
it to avidly pass from the GI tract to the circulatory
system// |
|
| |
No, we have cell membranes that are impermeable to
polar molecules. Each and every polar molecule, and
others including water, has to have a specific protein
transporter. Take lactose, it's composed of two
monosaccharides for which there are transporters. In
lactose intolerant people, they can't split it into
monosaccharides and as such, it hangs around, acting
osmotically to hold water in the lumen of the bowel. |
|
| |
// Oral rehydration therapy, they can mix some sugar and
salt into water and it becomes like 160% more rapid at
passing into the body than freshwater.// |
|
| |
Well, we know the mechanism for this, and it doesn't
apply. Our bodies don't control the flow of water into and
out of cells, it just moves passively through channels
called aquaporins. What we control is the flux of ions,
mainly Na+ and K+, if you move those around then water
follows osmotically. Adding sugar just adds some extra
energy to power the Na+/K+ pumps. |
|
| |
// //if you can rinse your lungs with it it is likely safe
to drink// - what?!// |
|
| |
There's some logic there, PFCs aren't toxic as far as we
know. And the digestive system is a lot less fussy about
things than the lungs. You can perform an experiment
with two fresh cups of tea, drink one, breath the other
and see which one is better tolerated. |
|
| |
//Look at the elimination path in liquid breathing
experiments as well as in IV treatments.// |
|
| |
Transport is the biggest problem. You're putting liquid
(well, they have to make stabilized emulsions) into an air
handling system, and that system is tidal. The other main
problem is the O2 binding kinetics. PFCs have a linear
relationship between O2 binding and pO2. Hemoglobin is
much cleverer than that, it has a huge non-linearity
meaning it will grab/dump O2 in specific sweet spots that
correlate with O2-rich lungs, O2-poor tissue. The O2
affinity is also modified by useful things like pCO2 and
pH. It's all very neat. |
|
| |
What might be interesting, is that you could definitely
put PFCs through the bowel. The bowel is extremely well
vascularized and is pre adapted for absorbtion and it's not
(usually) tidal. If you had someone with serious lung
problems, maybe you could pump artificial blood through
the bowel and get O2 in that way while the lungs recover.
That way you're handling liquids with a liquid handling
organ. It might be less problematic than forcing higher
and higher O2 concentrations into already damaged lungs.
O2 is nasty stuff at high concentrations. |
|
| |
More content at the idea, it now includes, "One of the
perfluorocarbons at the wikipedia [link] looks polar to me,
and the other looks nonpolar. Making a more highly polar
version could cause some uptake from oral dosing. |
|
| |
Another oral dosing approach is to put the perfluorocarbon
in liposomes which do pass through the GI tract to have
various contents absorbed." |
|
| |
//perfluorocarbon in liposomes which do pass through the GI
tract to have various contents absorbed.// |
|
| |
Liposomes get you through one cell membrane. Now you
have a load of redox active, non-metabolizable insoluble
molecules in the cytoplasm of the 1st layer of cells. That's a
very good way of making them toxic, but it doesn't get them
into the blood, and even if it did, they'd be insoluble. |
|
| |
[a1] good idea about the lasers, it is just possible a really
bright flash of white light that illuminates even a sleeping
baby's
eyes with light so bright it startles them could restart
breathing. like, could, I do not have any idea! |
|
| |
I have not been here often lately, but I can still detect a [beanangel] idea solely by the title at a glance ;-) |
|
| |
//you're just blowing smoke up his arse// |
|
| |
That'll be hard to absorb into the lungs. |
|
| |
//What might be interesting, is that you could definitely
put PFCs through the bowel. The bowel is extremely well
vascularized and is pre adapted for absorbtion and it's not
(usually) tidal. If you had someone with serious lung
problems, maybe you could pump artificial blood through
the bowel and get O2 in that way while the lungs recover.
That way you're handling liquids with a liquid handling
organ.// |
|
| |
It turns out I wasn't the only one thinking about using the
gut surface area for oxygen exchange <link> |
|
| |