h a l f b a k e r yWhat was the question again?
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This is a very well-made point. I'm just not sure
what it is. |
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It's a little more complicated than puire ideology, that
you can teach in schools. Remember Marx is a
materialist. Basically in a capitalist society only some
people can be actual capitalists, because they need
workers. Bismark changed that invented the middle
class, so atleast people would own homes as a form of
capital, Ford did another big thing, and got everybody
their own car. Neoloberalism did something else,
getting rid of as much working class in capitalist
countries as possible, and instituting reforns to get
workers to adopt capitallist ideologies, particularly by
focussing on job search and resumes and stuff like that.
But it's not going to work poor people is the state of
humans in nature. If you want security for the rich there
has to be security for the poor, so that means a public
sector that is not in the market for everyone outside the
market. Simply forcing everyone to get into the market
is like trying to invent an antigravity machine. Some
people will be too dense to ascend classes no matter
how much energy you put in. |
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[rcarty] I think you're wrong on multiple fronts
there, chief being the worker demand: rising
productivity is likely the chief cause of the
growing disparity in incomes. |
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The fact that Cameron's proposal seems so
shocking is likely the perfect signal just how
distorted public education is, whether in the UK
or elsewhere. |
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This is the news report the Cameron said poor must raise
asperations? |
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Yes well that's basically thatcherism-neoliberalism,
human
initiative thing again. |
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Rising productivity in what, high tech, information and
knowledge economies? Of course that creates disparity.
There's academic credentials, and raw brain power in the
way. A disparate society based on advancement of this
kind of capital was exactly what marx was talking about. |
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My suggestions would be number one, eliminate stupid
social competition ethos that is so dear to darwinians.
Don't make people compete for jobs, but let everyone
with some ability contribute what they can, and not
necessarily give them their needs, but based on what
they can produce. Second, start all childrens education
off in the skilled trades, everything from cutting dolls
hair, to carpentry, and academics last. Third, a public
commons where low income people don't necessarily
have to maintain private single family dwellings, but
share accomidations and community resources. There's a
lot of social values, 'christian' (although christians are
communal and not single families) and otherwise that
stop social progress, and conservatives that arn't
necessarily capitalists insist that they be maintained. |
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In any Bureaucracy ( animal, vegetable, or mineral ) left, right or center it is not water, but excrement that flows downhill. But don't teach the kids that and steal what little hope they still have. |
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//neo-loberalism// [marked-for-dictionary] definition to follow. |
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Neoliberalism - the simplest definition is if liberalism is
in
fact bourgeoise ideology, then neoliberalism a program
of
reforms to globalise manufacturing, rationalize the
domestic economy, undermine the soviet union (in the
absurd russian, and
international workers union sense of the word), get
people off social welfare and develop positive attitues
towards work and capitalism, and privatize public sector
businesses and services, play Ace of Base on the radio,
and
myriad other reforms, it's quite an extensive
implementation. These, in combination with
neoconservatism, the reversal of popular progressive
movements from the fifties and sexties, have been the
defining points of my generation. Even
environmentalism is part of market rationalization, a co-
opting of an anticapitalist argument transformed into a
more rational sellf-regulating consumer. |
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Neo-loberalism: a program of reforms to reprogram
or replace defective parts of poor minds, one lobe at
a time. |
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// but let everyone with some ability contribute
what they can// |
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From each according to his abilities. |
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The most offensive part of "liberal" vision is that it
constantly seeks to "let" or permit humans to go
about their activities. It's this bizzare assumption
that it is easier to list what's allowed, then what's
not allowed. |
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I think it would be better worth our time to teach kids that
shit flows downhill. Best to shatter the delusion that hard
work and honesty will get you to the top as early as
possible. |
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[Alterother], there has never been a time, in the
history of man, where it has been easier to follow
your own path, to the top or otherwise. |
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Wrong Solon the greek reformer of the early athenian city
state instituted a series of reformers allowing grain
producers to ascend to government bureaucratic positions
based on increased yields. He basically invented social
mobility. |
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ascending to government bureaucratic positions is a
bit different than making a living on Etsy or being
offered 3B for sending selfies. I'll grant you Athens
was an important milestone, perhaps one of the most
important. But they failed to scale. |
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Not to mention that things have changed a little bit since
Solon's time. Not much, but a little. Today we reward the
incompetents, liars, and pissants with meaningless
accolade rather than
stoning them to death in the town square. The strong,
forthright, and honorable people are mostly still at the
bottom. Drive through any inner-city housing tract and look
at the freshly painted houses and well-kept lawns. Those
neighborhoods are full of good people displaying their pride
because pride is all they have. Meanwhile the high and
mighty endow their ungrateful brats with fortunes they
haven't earned, and somewhere in the middle are
millions of shallow, ignorant twits whose highest
aspiration in life is to amass 100,000 Facebook
followers. |
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Gods, I'm starting to sound like [bigs]. |
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...well, who needs conspiracy theories after watching that?
No wonder they want to disarm the public. The whole shebang is bound to go all Sparticus on them sooner or later. |
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...and it's already later. |
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Besides their pride, [Alterother], they have to count
the million -- US -- of taxpayer dollars their children
would have cost to put through 12 grades. This
colossal, indescribable failure is purely a result of
capitalism being neither practiced, nor taught, in
their schools. |
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I can get on board with that, as long as I know where the
lifeboats are located. |
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//These, in combination with neoconservatism, the reversal of popular progressive movements from the fifties and sexties, have been the defining points of my generation.// |
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These defining points of your generation, [rcarty] - how can I break this to you? They didn't actually happen. More specifically,
1. the progressive movements of the sexties were sharply different from those of the fifties.
2. the progressive movements of the sexties were never, even at the time, as popular as they thought they were. There's a reason why people in them at the time failed to spot this which is, as Steven Fry might say, "quite interesting".
3. Because the progressive movements of the sexties were never, actually, as popular as they thought they were, there's no need (distant sound of razor being sharpened) to postulate a series of fiendishly clever capitalist plots to explain their subsequent collapse. |
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That's not to say that capitalists can't be clever - or fiendish - or, occasionally, both. It's just that, on this occasion, they didn't need to be. |
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...overpopulation? That's my grandmother's favorite
flogging horse. Or you could ask my Mom about welfare
programs, or talk to my Dad about animal cruelty. Oh, and
I made sure to marry a woman who has strong opinions
about...well, a lot of things. Sometimes when it all gets too
much the dog and I discuss the scheduling of meals. |
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//This is a very well-made point. I'm just not sure
what it is.
— MaxwellBuchanan// |
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At the risk of inflating an Englishman's ego, and I
know I'm going to regret admitting this, but it's come
to
the point where I gloss over an idea and skip to Max's
anno to see what the hell's going on without having
to actually pay attention to details, re-read the idea
etc. |
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Anyhoo, I'm going to bone this… no wait… bun. [+] |
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//the need to raise taxes in all countries// |
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[bigsleep] Never seen any budget -- any budget --
that couldn't be cut by 10% simply by asking some
questions. Raise taxes for what? |
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