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O.K., first, I never have and never will visit a prostitute. I simply believe the act of buying and selling sex and sex acts for money should be legal. They legalized abortion because of the "my body, my choice" theory, so why not this issue too?
Anyway, after some thought, I realized there is a
way around prostitution laws.
The law basically outlaws selling sex for money. So why not set up, say, a condom or contraceptive sales business.
Customers may purchase condoms to use for sex at $150 to $500 a box. Pricey for condoms, yes, but these are world class condoms.
And at the condom store, many of the clerks are paid to work. Let's just say, they aren't forced to do anything, but they like to treat their customers very well.
So, without beating around the bush, the John buys a $200 box of rubbers and one of the salesladies takes him back to her "stockroom" to get friendly.
There's no law against $200 condoms and there's no law against consentual sex between two adults.
If there is some law against having sex on the premises of a place of business, then, hey, she could take John to a private hotel room (remembering to "clock out" of course).
How can anyone fight this in a court of law.
Lawyer: "Did you pay this woman $200 for sex?"
John: "No."
Lawyer: "Then why did you give her $200?"
John: "For a box of condoms."
Lawyer: "But didn't you have sex with her after buying those condoms?"
John: "Yes. I always use condoms when I have sex."
Lawyer: "But you could have bought these some ones for $12 elsewhere."
John: "True, but I'm a loyal customer and they have a quality product. You can't be too careful these days."
It's a foolproof scheme. There's no legal challenge to it that I can find. As long as the sale is clearly for "condoms" and nothing else, there's no way to stop people from doing it.
Legally, the girl wouldn't have to have sex with the guy, but she'd find her "condom" business would go bad really quick if her customers didn't like the product.
Supply & Demand analysis
http://www.abcnews....y?id=1919192&page=1
[theircompetitor, May 08 2006]
[link]
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Let me see if I can explain this
better. |
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Many people are under the
misperception that the law judges
the physical actions people take,
regardless of the intent of those
actions. Some of these people
therefore conclude that, if there
is *some* story (no matter how
far-fetched) which offers a legal
explanation for each of their
actions, they will be "off the
hook", even though those actions
combined add up to an illegal act. |
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If you like, I can cite legal
authorities which explain that the
law does in fact judge intent, and
that it is up to judges and juries
to weigh intent as best they can,
even though it is not directly
observable. |
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But I don't think we need to go
there. Instead, consider that a
great many laws governing
transactions and sales -- not just
prostitution -- would be trivially
circumvented if the law worked as
you apparently believe. Consider
the following ridiculous excuses
someone might offer a jury: |
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"No, I didn't sell a beer to that
15-year-old. He just happenned to
tip me for getting him a glass of
water, and then I just happenned
to leave a bottle of cold beer on
the counter, and then he just
happenned to take it, and then I
just didn't think it was worth
prosecuting him for shoplifting." |
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"No, we didn't cheat on sales tax.
She gave me some money, because
she's a nice gal. I then gave her
some goods, because I'm a nice
guy. There's no sales tax on gifts!" |
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"No, she didn't pay me to smuggle
contraband into the country. She
paid me to carry an unmarked
suitcase to its destination. No,
I had no idea why she didn't use
UPS. No, I had no idea why she
was paying me so much. I didn't
declare it at the border because,
well, I didn't think it was
important. I hid it under the
spare tire because, you know, I
didn't want it stolen." |
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"No, I did not procure sex from
her. I paid for a box of condoms.
She probably had sex with me
because she thought I was cute.
Yes, they were expensive, but I'm
a loyal customer and they have a
quality product." |
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In all of these cases, any halfway
competent judge or jury would
throw out the story as an
implausible excuse. Looking at
the facts, they would determine
that there could be no reasonable
doubt that a crime had occurred.
They would find the perp guilty,
and that would be that. |
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I reiterate: It's about *intent*.
The intent in the scenario you
describe is to purchase sex and to
sell sex. That's what matters,
and the court is perfectly capable
of figuring that out. |
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No. He didn't pay for sex. He paid for condoms and the sex was free. There is no law against consentual sex.
This is better than an escort service because there is a viable product exchanging hands.
"Yes sir. I bought these condoms. The lady only had sex because she chose to and because she liked me."
There's no way you can beat that in a court of law unless John flubs and says something stupid or does something stupid. |
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This idea depends solely on the assumption that all juries
are made up of morons. That kind of defense gets used
all the time:
"I wasn't dealing, it's for my own personal use... all 75
kilograms."
"She didn't say 'no' at the time."
"Sure my car went through a red light but I wasn't driving
it."
"I may have had a gun in the depository but someone else
shot him."
These are called lies. Defendants tell them all the time.
If the jury decides that the real reason the
money changed hands was to pay for the sex it doesn't
matter if the customer really was stupid enough to pay
$200 for condoms.
And what happens when the "John" is an
undercover vice cop? |
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How about a campaign to get the law changed instead? As egnor illustrated, a feeble excuse only serves to highlight your intent. If you must try and circumvent the law then a better line of thinking might start with a call girl agency based in international waters, hopefully beyond the jurisdiction of most governments. |
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I still can't believe this is a "career" choice for anyone. How boring. From the other side....what a waste of money. |
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Uh, Peter, doesn't it say at the begining of that first
article that it's a *fictional* series? |
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A friend of mine came up with a better version of this(not that he tried it):
Buy a porn film studio,
Hire some atractive people,
Make other people pay to be in your movies... |
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Baked in Las Vegas where they make them get licences and health screenings every 6 monthes. |
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we can sit here and say it's all bullshit. but the truth of the matter is that this is a very real loop-hole. the reason why this defence is used so often, is because it works. end of story. it's not an issue of morals, but of the stupidty of the laws here un america. they have made the legal process way to f*ing complitcated. thus leaving many back doors open to loop-holes such as the one under discussion here. |
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This pretty much describes a front. Nice try, prevert! :) |
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Mephista: Fabulous! I'd LOVE to read it!! |
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In Vermont, it used to be illegal to charge money for tattoo application. Tattoo parlors would charge money for a custom work of art, and then apply it to the customer as a tattoo for free. This was all considered legal. A few years ago, there was concern over standards of hygene, and it was decided that the law should be changed to allow professional tattooing but to also regulate hygene.
[egnor] above, attempts to show that intent is what matters, and draws some analogies which I don't think quite work. The difference is that amateur concentual sex is actually legal in most places, as is giving a friend an amateur tattoo. Smuggling contraband and furnishing alachol to minors are both illegal with our without payment being involved. |
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Here in Holland we have tax paying licensed prostitutes, they can't use heroine or crack cocaine if they have a legal operation. They use agencies rather then pimps. This type of business creates black money, justice doesn't come cheap + Millions in mist taxes, we tax all other services, so I don't know what's so different about this. |
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"they have made the legal process way to f*ing complitcated" You got that right, celizafinn! however you punctuate it.
Incidentally, 20 years ago in my state it was legal to sell books on Sunday, but not billiard tables. So some shops sold $600 boks with a free billiard table thrown in. Failed on the 'intention' grounds. But times have changed & now if you have the money you can hire a hooker all Sunday. |
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RobertKidney is on the right track. Where I live, prostitution is illegal, but selling and making pornographic movies is not. So I could pay a woman to be an actor in a "low budget" porn film where I am the other actor, film the whole event, and then destroy the tape afterwards...or keep it as evidence. |
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All I would need is a place to do the deed and a video camera with a tripod. |
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Wait a second...what am I sitting here for? |
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BTW, tigerwren, not baked in Las Vegas, baked *OUTSIDE* of Las Vegas in other Nevada counties. Each county in Nevada has the right to choose (like gambling). Clark County (wherein lies Las Vegas) has chosen NOT to legalize prostitution, on the grounds that it has legalized "gaming", and legitimized prositution would trod all over the improving reputation of gaming and people would stop coming to LV for "family" vacations. I actually took a class in this at UNLV (University of Nevada, Las Vegas, "Sociology of the Sex Industry").
SO, you can't legally hire or be a prostitute in Las Vegas. BUT, if you are a high-roller, there are rumors that your preferred hotel will supply a car/limosine/taxi/whatever to Pahrump, the closest town that has a "chicken ranch", where you can *um* to your heart's content. |
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Keep in mind that juries are not forced to believe just anything. They're free-thinking people. You know .... your peers. So ask yourself this ... would YOU believe such a story? |
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No enforceable civil law is violated for keeping a lover in every port nor for having a different one for each day of the week for that matter. I think this would be far more fun and cheaper too. Please don't confuse my point with advocacy. It's not. This solution, as it applies to certain individuals, is simply more appealing to me than that suggested by the author. |
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I have heard of a similar loophole for drunk driving. A
friend of mine told me about a lawyer he knew who would
tend to drive "under the weather" from time to time and
feared getting caught. His self-designed legal loophole was
to always keep an unopened bottle of whiskey in the
glove box for this inevitable day. |
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Here's the real story;
He was eventually pulled over for suspected D.W.I. He
locked his doors, rolled up his windows and took the keys
out of the ignition. He waited for the police officer to
approach the car and in clear view he opened he glove
box, broke the seal on the bottle and took several long
swigs off of it. At his trial, his lawyer asked the arresting
officer whether he could honestly say when his client
drank the alcohol which showed in his system; before
getting behind the wheel or at the scene of the arrest.
The case was dismissed. |
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//Then why did you give her $200? - For a box of condoms.// |
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If you BYO, do they charge corkage? |
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//The lady only had sex because she chose to and because she liked me.// |
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This happens in certain hostess bars. Drinks for the ladies are $20 to $40 each. After a couple of heavy drinking sessions, the manageress 'suggests' that the hostess should 'date' the guy. |
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It doesn't mean it isn't prostitution. Granted, it's a bit easier to explain to Dad (happy father's day, BTW) how she pays her rent, but it doesn't mean the gal isn't being ripped off by the system and has any choice about who she sleeps with. |
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//He waited for the police officer to approach the car and in clear view he opened he glove box,// |
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Best not attempt this in my neighborhood, Buddy, unless you have bullet-proof windows. |
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Look, these tortuous loopholes only highlight how silly it is
for something to be legal to get free, but illegal to pay
for. Among commodities/services, political favors are
about the only parallel I can think of, and those usually
involve thorny issues of equity (i.e. 'victims' too) much
more directly... |
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I can't really decide on the legalities of a selling (or gifting) a comodity that has not yet been bought or sold! Surely then, it still belongs to its creator (the perp.) and is theirs to give, sell, donate or even squander, providing that no person is dissadvantaged, violated or slightly upset! |
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Wow, what some people will do for sex! I still don't understand why porn movies are allowed, but someone paying for sex is prohibited. With the recent Supreme Court decision in Texas, overturning sodomy laws (which are also used to file prostitution charges in some states) you probably won't have to find such loopholes in the future. Streetwalking should be prohibited, and local communities should make the final decision if they want a brothel. However, if someone wants to hire an individual to come to their home or hotel room for sex, it's none of my business. Just keep the shades down. I think a jury would feel the same way. |
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Buy a condom for 200 $ and get free sex! |
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Would that be legal? You don't buy the sex.. |
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// Here's the real story; He was eventually pulled over for suspected D.W.I. He locked his doors, rolled up his windows and took the keys out of the ignition. He waited for the police officer to approach the car and in clear view he opened he glove box, broke the seal on the bottle and took several long swigs off of it. At his trial, his lawyer asked the arresting officer whether he could honestly say when his client drank the alcohol which showed in his system; before getting behind the wheel or at the scene of the arrest. The case was dismissed.
\\ |
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Not a bad idea. Wouldn't work where I live though. Here being drunk in your car equals driving drunk. Doesn't matter if it's moving or not. |
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Where I live, it is illegal to have open alcoholic beverages in a car. |
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Anyhow, this idea gets a fishbone from me because it wouldn't generally work. If you want to get around prostitution laws, the simple technique is to just go somewhere else, such as Amsterdam. You're much safer with regulated prostitution anyways. |
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//Each county in Nevada has the right to choose// |
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I believe that prostitution is legal in counties whose population is below some threshold. Clark county exceeds that threshold, and thus can't have legal prostitution. |
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Dear editor, well guess what; I never believed it could happen to me, but ... |
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Something similar to this usually happens around the time of major sporting events down here, because its illegal to resell tickets for a profit, you fing people selling an envalope with free tickets. |
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$500 for a box of condoms? |
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I've never paid more than $100 for a box! |
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Heavily baked. Go to www.craigslist.com, look up "erotic services" involving "donations" for unspecified acts. |
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Also, they're called escorts. |
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[egnor] is entirely right on this one. The odd (in both senses of the word) judge might let someone get around this, but usually you wouldn't get away with it. I can't see why anyone would believe the story suggested.
I love the loophole for drink driving though. Here (in Britain), they could still get you for being in control of a vehicle while drunk. Perhaps if you gave the officer your keys or something to that effect to show that you are no longer in control of the car. |
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Isn't it funny the only reason we have to put up with this crap is because of the Catholics. This is the single best idea to come off this website. [+] |
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that's a great way to spread STD's...which I would say is one of the strongest arguments for illegalizing prostitution in today's world. |
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Funny, I thought that was one of the strongest reasons for legalizing it. You'd get workers into safe and regulated environments. It's not like making prostitution illegal really stops it. |
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Murdoch! Now [Honduras] doesn't have any eyebrows left! |
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What is this talk of "free" sex?
You could also (probably unsuccessfully) argue that there is almost no such thing and that all sex involves a payment of some sort.
Or am I being too cynical? |
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Or you just could get married for $200 (is that really all it costs?) w/ a free divorce coupon. |
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Eh, I'm sort of scared to enter this debate, but as a fifteen year old with no experience of law, I'll say that it seems pretty sound (if in my view, highly morally questionable) and give it a croissant because I think it serves its purpose. |
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And if John turned out to be a cop, there'd be no problem, as far as I can see, because it would be up to John alone to suggest the sex, and if the girl agreed, then it wouldn't prove anything. |
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Although I'm not a lawyer and I don't know much. Ahem. Don't kill me. |
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That's the best idea yet! |
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"Your Honor, I paid for sex in <name of country>, where prostitution is legal." |
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"You were in New Jersey." |
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"No sir, I was on the sovereign soil of <name of country>." |
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Maybe you can get appointed a 'diplomat' of <name of country>, and simply assert diplomatic immunity. |
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Of all the ideas around here. I think I hate this the most. Why do people keep bringing it back? |
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I love it when you talk dirty [UB]. |
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I don't see the point of prostitution. Either it's too expensive, or you get a disease. |
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Just go on the internet. There are thousands of people into thousands of 'things.' I'm sure you could find someone who'll go at it with you. |
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Thanks, [UB]. I've just corrected my spelling error. Though in truth, I don't need to SPELL "sovereign," I just need to SAY it. |
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And you might want to check the stats on STD's among legal prostitutes in Nevada. Safer than dating. |
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And the add's goes, : EMPTY COMDOM's VERBOTEN,
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, after use, will develop criminals, off
uncertain, size, and dimensionss,,.. -) |
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