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This is a ceramic rotary engine with much tighter area-contact seals, with its perfectly utilized rotor the only major moving assembly, with much greater percentage of working volume to the total engine volume partially due to double-acting wall configuration, with far greater horsepower per pound (surpassing
the gas guzzling jet engine even if it has full-throttled afterburners), yet far more efficient than diesel engine due to its hybrid thermodynamic cycle (two-stage intake stroke similar to miller cycle due to supercharging effect of centrifugal action of the ported compressor rotor; realized ideal constant volume combustion process by using pre-chamber formed by the concave cavity of the expander rotor on which the accumulated pressure is stored temporarily throughout complete combustion and instantaneously released at TDC when the unique rotor position instantaneously make the immovable rotor pre-chamber wall into being movable, assuring transfer of torque from absolute zero to 100% at TDC, unlike the common engine wherein the combustion advance have negative torque before TDC; complete expansion adiabatic process due to longer expansion ceramic rotor segment with no cooling system; no valve/port overlap that would compromise the thermodynamic cycle, due to dedicated compression and expansion rotor segments; very minimal fluid turbulence in suction and exhaust strokes due to moving porting configuration located in the rotor, unlike the conventional engines which have stationary ports located in housing wall; very minimal energy-depleting formation of Nitrogen Oxides due to exhaust-gas recirculation provided by the pre-chamber wall cavity in the expander rotor mentioned above) and higher compression ratio attainable due to more surface area sealing at TDC, yet simplest by far than Wankel engine as shown by the simplicity of the components and its kinematics. This unique hybrid propulsion uses a newer hydraulic drive system configuration without the use of any propeller shaft and conventional hydraulic pump, instead utilizing the middle segment of the rotor as rotary hydraulic pump. Due to its compact design than engines in equivalent horsepower, it can achieve even higher rpm, thus achieving an even more attainable power. It has a neat utilitarian rectangular package with air filters and catalytic converters tucked-in with their respective opposing inner-rotor chambers. This unique hydraulic drive system has matching hydraulic wheel motors designed after the effective basic configuration of the rotary engine.
Thus, the car would be very efficient as the compactness of the drive-train without flywheel, transmission and propeller shaft, and instead with powerful engine and hydraulic system, translate or have a snowball effect to its overall structure with much lighter, robust and more responsive structural-frame components, and drive and suspension systems. Then, the car can accelerate fast and have smaller regenerative hydraulic braking components that are required to capture the lower kinetic energy of lighter inertial mass—this tends to lessen also any energy loss of the propulsion and brake systems. The next logical step would be, when the necessity arises to save fuel, flying the car straightforwardly with its ducted lifting fans, avoiding the more energy-consuming winding road ahead. A pretty wonderful scenario, would you agree?
Hope this would encourage teamwork for us here to get some very practical yet astonishing research creations. Check out the links below for further comprehension. Then put your best queries, comments and suggestions worthy of a witty humor perhaps. Then, I’d be technically humorous as well. Good luck and God bless.
Is it okay to have a Halfbakery Team to compete in the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE? I guess it worth our best teamwork…
New Rotary Engine of Disruptive Technology Type
http://rotaryengine...pines.blogspot.com/
This is the simplest eccentric-rotor configuration with rotor as the main or major moving part and the hydraulic oil as the motive power supply. [rotary, Mar 30 2008]
flickr slideshow for the New Rotary Engine
http://www.flickr.c.../24884787@N06/show/
Check out how the individual components in compressor and turbine portions/segments comprising the: 1. single rotor assembly; 2. single housing assembly [rotary, Mar 30 2008]
Paragraph breaks
Normzone_20Paragraph_20Breaker
[normzone, Mar 30 2008]
sonofagun, there is an automotive x prize
http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/
[dentworth, Mar 31 2008]
hydraulics drive-train advocate 1
https://engineering...2006/EnergyRecovery
She quickly lists the advantages of fluid power: It is more powerful and compact and lighter than traditional electromechanical systems. A fluid power system on a windmill, for example, would be the size of a coffee mug; an electrical power unit would be about the size of a trash can. [rotary, Mar 31 2008]
hydraulics drive-train advocate 2
http://www.ccefp.or...sfpmonthly0107.html
The second goal is to move fluid power into the transportation sector by developing the hydraulic hybrid passenger vehicle. A 10% improvement in the efficiency of automobiles would save $10 billion per year. [rotary, Mar 31 2008]
hydraulics drive-train advocate 3
http://www.scienced...09/010926072017.htm
Because water offers several environmental and economic advantages over petroleum hydraulic fluid, the students teamed up to demonstrate that such a vehicle is now possible. By using water instead of heavier petroleum fluid, Krutz estimates the efficiency could be boosted at least 10 percent. [rotary, Mar 31 2008]
hydraulics drive-train advocate 4
http://investing.bu...p?privcapId=4223256
The goal of the project, which is being done in conjunction with Western Michigan University (WMU), is to develop smaller and lighter drivetrain components, increase fuel efficiency and improve traction and stability for Army tactical vehicles. [rotary, Mar 31 2008]
hydraulics drive-train advocate 5
http://www.progress...prize-details/teams
Valentin Technologies, led by Ingo Valentin is producing the INGOCAR, a medium size 5-seat passenger car. It is driven by a new hydrostatic powertrain with energy storage. According to the team, this new concept technology is very efficient, light, and powerful. Tests and simulations performed by the team indicate a fuel consumption of 130 mpg (NEDC) and a 90% reduction in emissions. [rotary, Mar 31 2008]
Animation example.
http://en.wikipedia...i/Four-stroke_cycle
Otto cycle presentation. [Ling, Mar 31 2008]
Wankel Animation example
http://www.keveney.com/Wankel.html
Great website with animations of many popular engines [MisterQED, Apr 01 2008]
(?) MEM's rotary engine power system
http://www.citris-u...engine_power_system
My basic-form rotary engine is more appropriate for this than Wankel engine. [rotary, Apr 03 2008]
Top view of design
http://img167.image...age=30270089nl4.jpg
[MisterQED, Apr 08 2008]
basic design to clarify the above link
http://bp2.blogger....e+demonstration.jpg
This drawing is already in my blog long before. [rotary, Apr 09 2008]
HB article: Slow-burning fuel engine
Slow-burning_20fuel_20engine
'sealing' and 'starting' topics of my design [rotary, Apr 09 2008]
Wikipedia - Roots Supercharger
http://en.wikipedia...s_type_supercharger
[MisterQED, Apr 10 2008]
One of these Trucks
http://www.guzzler.com/DFACE_1252.asp
Big Roots Pump [jhomrighaus, Apr 10 2008]
Gallery of rotary engines and accessories
http://dds78dan78.free.fr/
My rotary engine is at the rightmost of the 5th row [rotary, May 22 2008]
(?) similar rotary engine with shifting axis
http://dds78dan78.f...pascal%20HAPHAM.htm
take note that our major difference is that they have line contact sealing to achieve higher pressure while mine has an effective area contact sealing that can achieve higher compression ratios. [rotary, May 22 2008]
70% efficient rotary
http://www.gizmag.c...istol-rotary/24623/
a light compact rotary engine. [travbm, Oct 29 2015]
[link]
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That first sentence must be some kind
of a record ! Welcome [rotary], but you
need more breaks in your text. That
bone is not mine by the way, but you
may find yourself collecting more,
unless you do some editing. Just trying
to be helpful :-) |
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I can't take it any more. I'm off to research discriminating superlative processes. |
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Oh, thanks xenzag. Well, that's just the nature of my active mindset. "True geniuses would just appreciate the design, not the designer." Maybe I am attuned to that phrase than looking at myself. Poor me. |
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Well [rotary], it depends how important
communicating your idea effectively is
to you. I assume it's of some
importance, otherwise you'd keep it to
yourself. As for genius, there's not too
many of them here (if at all) or
anywhere else for that matter. |
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I tend to think that genius crosses
boundaries and takes ideas to
unexpected levels. Rotary engines are
never going to go there... not even the
first one. |
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Oh, I forgot! click at the animation in my blog of which link I provided here. Or, click at the flickr slideshow link, then lay back--forget those long sentences. I disagree watching long TV programs makes us dumb, or... I am dumber already by not realizing it now... |
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Cool drawings, confusing text. What I get is a redesign of the Wankel to use a bulbous three sided piston/rotor that “rotates” inside a roughly 4 sided cylinder. I assume the concave three sided object inside the four pointed star is the mechanism to move the piston correctly. I don’t see what is motivating it yet. |
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It sounds like you are forcing the air into the bump in the middle of the triangle for ignition and then venting to the side for expansion force, which is cool, except I am missing the Miller cycle part of this where the expansion volume would be greater than the compression part. The system seems to require even volumes, just like a regular piston. Also since the ignition chamber is never physically evacuated, I don’t understand how it is scavenged or is that what you mean by exhaust gas recirculation? |
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You also claim to have “higher compression ratio attainable due to more surface area sealing at TDC”, but your system still needs the same apex seals that cause Wankel’s such problems. You also have the same corner sealing issues at the top and bottom of the rotor which are also probably leaky. |
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And DEFINITELY the biggest issue is the combination of high RPMs and hydraulics which never goes well. The fact that you have that hydraulic fluid inside the same uncooled rotary engine means that I suggest you have a fire extinguisher handy when you start this up. |
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I’m probably missing a lot, but this is pretty good considering I had to sift thru so many superlatives to find the idea. |
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Welcome [rotary]. I agree with you that the idea is more important than the grammar. |
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Either way, I would love to be on your automotive X-Prize team. Surely you could use a musician. |
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It's good to have a thick skin here if you know what I mean, especially if English is not your first language. |
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Nice comment, MisterQED. In your first paragraph, you assume well, only that it is not right. That’s pretty average, seeing that almost all are not spy material: |
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A redesign!? Wankel obviously has not even a single side of the rotor which brushes with the alien look-alike trochoidal housing surfaces. My clear configuration, which is totally not a redesign of Wankel, has almost all surfaces of the rotor in contact with the flawless circular-arc surfaces of the housing: so it is obviously not just a makeup but total smack on the face! As you can see, the rotor is a cam with far lesser stress contact: Wankel apex seals give their harshest scrapes and scratches in lustful passion, but these engine seals got their sensual strokes in a true love fashion. Did it need grinning teeth like that of synchronizing gears of the Wankel to ease out the scratches and be tolerable? No need! A gentle hug of the faithful cover plates is enough to secure the ecstatic chamber privacy. |
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Nice comment, MisterQED. In your second paragraph, you describe well, only that it is not right. That’s pretty average, seeing that almost all are not detective material: |
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Accusing someone of forcing something!? The rotor is divided into two very identical portions, a half of it is the compressor, and the other half is the turbine and its waist is the rotary hydraulic pump. The “bump” you said are just low-pressure transfer-manifold chamber of which its slits/ports are located in the inner portion. And you are confusing the Atkinson Cycle attributes to that of Miller Cycle. For in-depth information, the Atkinson Cycle attribute is evident in the shorter compressor portion of the rotor and in the longer expander portion of the rotor. Its Miller Cycle attribute is evident to the tossing action of the rotor we normally termed as centrifugal action, because the intake slits/ports are located in the compressor rotor portion. Please study the configuration carefully if ever I left a wide space in the compressor portion not being squeezed out to the last breath of the Air of Life. It seems you miss to lay back and watch the flickr slideshow, and further look up at the accompanying fashion-statement description of each strip-teasing picture. (BTW, I still disagree watching long MTV programs makes us dumb.) :-) |
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Perhaps it would be helpful if you could
elaborate on its halfbaked features? |
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As a general comment the flowery prose and sexual side references are making it really, really difficult for me to take you seriously in any way shape or form. |
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Thanks, [xenzag]. Well, that configuration has no half-baked features, friend, but probably half-baked illustrations, descriptions, renderings, accounts, etc. (maybe mostly attributed to me). Perhaps, that is why I employ the superlative terminologies (It is just simply superior). No offence here. Don’t worry, I like (to tease) the likes of [MisterQED]. I might pop my eyes out laughing, figuring how they mess or miss the yeasts and ruined the whole batch of dough, leaving our party here with bones and cartilages from dried fish to nibble, forcing each individual intuition to a more contemplative fasting. :-) |
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btw rotary, have you applied for a patent on this thing? |
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You lost me at hydraulics. Way too lossy. A quantum leap has to happen in hydraulics efficiencies before they will be invited to play at X-prize games. |
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Don’t worry [jhomrighaus], I cannot be offended. The geekiest in the mind of the geeks are among them who do not seem geeks anymore—those, instead of acting clumsily funny, make fun out of others for their own amusement sake. No, that’s not me. (Shhhhh, well, don’t take any personalities of your subjects too seriously; just mind each of their businesses.) |
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Well, [dentworth], I have my ultimate personal reasons for not applying patents on all these things. |
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And, in my blog, I have written this: |
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“…So, is there any alternative design that is simpler by far than Wankel yet powerful by far than jet engine, and economical by far than diesel engine? Without further ado, I have—and it is ALL FREE: no patent infringements to fear upon. Take a feature peek at the series of prime pictures above and the animation of its kinematics in the video.” |
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Sorry, [elhigh]. I can provide you numerous links that totally advocate hydraulic drive-train due to their thorough research of its efficiency and vast advantages. Don’t worry also about the last comment of [MisterQED] regarding hazards of hydraulic fluid, because researches at Purdue on WATER hydraulic systems are making leap and bounds in efficiency and safety. Maybe you keep on missing the highlights into the Valentin Technologies regarding their passenger car driven by hydraulics participating in the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE challenge. |
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My apologies great teacher for my confusion of Miller vs. Atkinson cycles. If my text seems broken it is due to the severe beatings I have performed upon myself to try to remove the black mark my mistake has left on my sole. Now, oh enlightened one, as I kneel subserviently at your boundless fount of true wisdom, please explain to one, so lowly as I, the biology of the yeast that will allow this phenomenal mechanism to be balanced and rise to it’s perfect bread? My poor embattled mind looks upon this, the holiest of all ideas, and flounders in a miasma of confusion as angular and linear forces fly unbalanced for even if the matching rotor flies as the day chases the night, it will only cancel the linear oscillations and introduce new angular ones perpendicular to the original axis. The unseen force like the smile of a toothless woman that drives the central concave triangle along its own path to enlightenment and purpose in this reality can’t help but to introduce rotational accelerations as its path follows four external points of rotation. This all as my sole yearns to hear how hydraulics bound to this retched plain by physical laws of viscosity can be freed to act in this high speed play of immaculate form meeting spiritual function. |
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I............... ................
.......... ......... Cant.........
.......... ......... Breath.......
......... .............. must.....
.............. stop..............
............. laughing...........
............. ................ *thump* |
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rotary, it is YOU! YOU YOU YOU! YOU alone are the geekiest! The Freaky Geeky, that's what I shall call you. |
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rotary, I can't find a description of how your engine actually works - plenty of claims however - but from the animation it looks like the rotor will have high vibration with those changes in direction. |
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Why don't you consider an idiots guide to gas flow, showing compression/ignition etc? Something like as shown for the Otto cycle, linked. |
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Fine, co-herald [Ling]! This pitiful temporal baker humbly concedes to the judgment that his shewbread is half-baked, somehow ill-representing the impeccable, inspired, heaven-sent flame lit by the bolt of the thundercloud of his brainstorming, though he takes refuge under the shade of the banner of HALFBAKERY fortress. I may be aloft, in the tower betwixt baking chimney stacks to these kingdom hearers, to stage my formulation for food for thought of all, yet I’m still at the mercy of the searing elucidative heat of the noonday SUN of justification. And I was found wanting (somehow deserving your fish-bone votes). I plead for utmost exculpation too, dragging [MisterQED] to my darn irresponsibility that unwittingly desecrate horribly the Most True unembellished Invention. |
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Soon, in short time possible God permits, I may be able to lay down in plain manner the inner workings of my rotary engine, and fine-tuned to be at pace with any brilliancy of each of your unique and personal hindsight. Both of you, Ling and MisterQED, are superbly discerning of most of minute vibrations this configuration kinematically impart to the rotating/revolving rotor. I will expound my understanding in that matter soon, but, for the meantime, here is my humble observation: |
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This engine will be roughly a tenth of equivalent conventional engine size, so any noticeable eccentricity has been reduced proportionately when viewed by comparison. Moreover, the dampening effect of the fluid viscosity would prevent the banging of the surfaces and, furthermore, will impart hydrodynamic lubrication between the mating surfaces. Forgive me if I have no empirical data to justify that the hydrodynamic action of the hydraulic pump would not limit significantly the maximum rotor speed, but I have some future modification for that (still in the works today), aside from employing distilled water as hydraulic fluid. I give you some hints: I will employ a cyclic push and pull of the fluid in the hydraulic lines, which is equivalent to ac circuit of ordinary electric lines, yet still maintaining a slow total system flow in one direction, thereby minimizing fluid shear near the hydraulic tube walls. The hydraulic leaks also would provide steam-engine capability to make expansion process much more elastic and to minimize major hot spots. |
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Please don’t be reluctant in posting relevant queries and needs for clarifications. We have plenty of time here in HALFBAKERY for all the exemplary engaging moments to come. And, BTW, always keep your sense of humor intact. (Or, I mean, always put up your smiling mask.) |
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//Soon, in short time possible God permits, I may be able to lay down in plain manner the inner workings of my rotary engine// |
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A picture paints a thousand words. In your case, a sketch might suffice. |
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I personally didn't want to sound negative. In any new idea there will always naysayers who will tell you your idea is bad even if they don’t understand it. I was trying to understand it and I still am. |
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So let’s try again, because I also figured out how to solve the balance issue and you may want to know how. |
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What I think this is, is an axial inlet and exhaust engine using a single roughly triangular rotor which is using all three faces of the triangle as a separate piston. The rotor moves on a path defined by a central concave triangle moving inside a concave square. One of the truly interesting parts is the fact that the air charge is not combusted against the square, but I think the charge is forced into a combustion chamber in the middle of the side of the rotor. There are probably four fuel injectors and four spark plugs built in the middle of each of four sides of the rotor housing, so once the air is forced in, the fuel is injected and ignited. Then the rotor rotates to allow the charge to expand and then be exhausted and pushed out of the chamber. |
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From the first link, look at the video and imagine that there is an inlet port at the bottom left of the top chamber. From 0-3 seconds is the “suck” portion, 3-4 seconds is the “squeeze”, 4-5 is the ignition, which may actually occur at a constant volume up till 6 seeconds. Restarting the movie will show that chamber expand from 0-1 seconds then exhaust from 1-3 seconds. At least that’s what I think is happening. If you go to the exploded view of the parts you can see the inlet and exhaust ports on the dark grey pieces. |
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At least this is my best guess. |
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A bun to you, sir, because I have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds like a good idea. |
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Thanks, [MisterQED]. I truly appreciate people just like you, having keen first impressions. You are right that the video suggest a simpler approach for a thermodynamic cycle to happen in a simplest rotor (you have probably noticed the unique feature of rotor porting without additional mechanism to effect covering and uncovering). This configuration has a lot more to explore, and what impressed you first is actually my initial practical approach. As the design progressed further, I was looking for incorporating the finer aspects of the design to make it near perfect: I really liked the idea of incorporating the advantages of Otto, Diesel, Miller, Atkinson, and Bryton Cycles into one package, in such way they cancel each other disadvantages. And, fairly enough, I succeeded in my final, but more elaborate design. Yet I have to keep an open mind on other possible redesign to achieve a truly perfect engine; there are still a handful of exciting improvements I am exploring: I am praying somehow God would provide me the best environment to realize these dreams. |
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Concerning the imbalance you’ve mentioned, that is really a bit of a problem to the smallest engine attainable, although it can be perfectly balanced by synchronized counterweights. But for higher capacity ones, I really intend to have a modular approach of stacking at least four assemblies with synchronized opposing movements to cancel out those forces. Furthermore, this modular approach would vastly help in maintaining a standard with leaner component variation to sizes and shapes, thereby bringing down price and assembly handling complexity. |
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Thanks, [Voice] and [Ling]. Wait a little longer, friends, for I am still preparing for some animated presentation to make my invention downright clear to everyone who at least knew the basic engine already. |
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It is far better to try to create a better future somehow than to merely expect much about it. :-) |
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"animated presentation," oh my stars and garters. I'm guessing it's going to look like Animaniacs on meth. That ought to be fun. |
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Rotary, I can't follow everything you're saying - I'm not sure if I ever could - but I'll give you this: you're enthusiastic. |
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...Huh? After scrolling through a large block of text about this engine that is apperently "The lightest, most efficient & powerful hybrid engine in the modern world", I glance down and find that apperently somehow this idea also relates to how cars should fly with ducting fans and such. |
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Well you do have interesting opinions, [rotary]. |
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What is the point of all the inner rotor stuff and the weird assembly in between the 2 rotors. Almost nowhere in all of these links is there a clear cycle description of how the motor works, I mean for Christ sake even a basic numbered diagram would give us something to go on. |
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I see at least one technical issue here. In this statement; |
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//...realized ideal constant volume combustion process by using pre-chamber formed by the concave cavity of the expander rotor on which the accumulated pressure is stored temporarily throughout complete combustion and instantaneously released at TDC when the unique rotor position instantaneously make the immovable rotor pre-chamber wall into being movable, assuring transfer of torque from absolute zero to 100% at TDC...// |
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you seem to imply that the combustion takes place in a fixed volume space and that after complete combustion you release the chamber into an expansion chamber. The problem with this is that the combustion process is the work that pushes the piston(or rotor) and allows the expansion. If you complete the combustion in a fixed space you will see the pressure spike(during the active explosion phase) and then return essentially back to the original baseline pressure with a net increase in temperature. The combustion must take place in a chamber which can expand to allow it to do work otherwise you have nothing. |
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The loses you go on to discuss from before TDC ignition are actually counter to what you are implying, with proper adjustment the ignition of the fuel air mixture occurs BTDC so that there is time for the flame front to propogate throughout the mixture which then accelerates the piston downward during the active explosion of the mixture. In compression engines(diesels) the ignition occurs pretty much simultaneously when ever the proper amount of compression is reached(pretty much at TDC or slightly before) In all cases work can only occur during the expansion of the exploding fuel air mixture, once combustion stops there is no more work to be done(some slight pressure increase due to temperature rise but this is not significant) What say you? |
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The whole thing needs more grommets
and soft action delay motion. |
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rotary, I intend no offence here, but would you mind a quick turing test? |
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The inner child in me still yearns to be an outstretched eagle – an everlasting child of the sky. Keeping this hope alive, I lay down these past-time plans for a temporal wing: a counter-rotating, hydraulic-driven, axial-tandem ducted FANS powered by this portable ROTARY ENGINE concealed in a backpack. (Who would like a pair of composite arm armor as articulated-wing backbone with joints driven by hydraulics and the human arms serve as manipulators and sensors?) Hope this might fan your fancy, [acurafan07], and enthuse you up high, [elhigh]. |
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[acurafan07] - my humble apologies. |
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[jhomrighaus], we can simplify the engine without those inner rotors. That for sure is valuable to MEM’s research to replace batteries with miniature ceramic rotary engines. –See link. |
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Here are the reasons having those compressor inner rotor and expander inner rotor for a car engine:
1. Provide additional working chambers to maximize space and power capacity.
2. Provide intake-air and exhaust manifolds/ducts, respectively.
3. Hold fast the air filter and catalytic converter, respectively.
4. Simplify alignment and fastening (by single bolt and three alignment pins).
5. Utilized their mating end portions as rigid hydraulic pump.
6. Use to communicate outside the movement of the rotor for other possible uses like:
a. Ancillary motive source for transmission, valves, pump, sensors, timing mechanism, etc.
b. Anchorage for synchronizing mechanism for vibration cancelling/dampening.
c. Easy provision for automated centrifuge cleaning for air and gas filters. |
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Their additional inherent feature advantages:
1. Imparting centrifugal force and helical movement to the air and gas, ensuring faster flow.
2. Effectively set uniflow configuration and widest distance between the incoming air and exhaust gas, minimizing secondary gas ingestion.
3. Outward centrifugal forces of the inner-rotor mass are counteracted by the inward respective compression and combustion pressures. |
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Please go back and read my last comment and question. Your last response did not address any of the technical issues I commented on. |
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Hmmmm, [jhomrighaus]...seems you feel the suspense building up. |
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You picked one of the best features of my configuration, and the rule is: we ought to save the best for last! Wait a little longer, friend, and give chance to minor questions from others first. You picked the best question too, or probably you are erroneously assuming already. Observe carefully what I have told, and seek out the inconspicuous detail in flickr pictures: it is simply just there. (hint: Do metallic sheens bother you... but that’s just a picture!) hahah |
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Here's my best suggestion: Try to be in the mind of the originator first, then you might probably discover other wonders he missed among others he is being overwhelmed with. :-) |
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[jhomrighaus], first understand that we are talking about heat engines. Otto/diesel/wankel/brayton etc. are all internal combustion, but sterling and steam engines are just external combustion heat engines. Heat is the key and it is where the power comes from. Efficiently using that heat is the goal. The ideal heat engine would run on a Carnot cycle. The constant volume combustion is one of the pieces of the Carnot cycle and useful because it means that all the heat is generated converting into the maximum amount of pressurized gas that will then be used to push pistons, etc. The ignition of fuel BDC in a gas engine is a trade off which causes some extra pressure but allows much higher engine speeds and actually attempts to approximate a constant volume combustion chamber. |
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Hmmmm, [MisterQED]. Oversight mitigation: The constant volume combustion is but in ideal Otto Cycle, yet trying to approach the efficiency of Carnot Cycle in a practically compact engine. |
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I, for one, think that boning an idea just because you don't completely understand it the first time around is wrong. |
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I agree I have not yet voted on this one. |
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[rotary] Is the combustion taking place in those little spaces in the walls of the Main Rotor?(where the small slit shaped openings connect the spaces in the rotor to the outer cavities between the rotor and the main housing) |
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Well, I broke down and figured I’d lay out the engine in usable pictures so people could understand how it works, but I found three problems, corners, seals and tolerances. To explain it I put a link to the picture of the rotor from top view. The red outer design is the housing and the blue inner piece is the rotor. The blue triangle in the middle is just for visual understanding and the red concave square at the center is the path of the center of the rotor as it rolls around the inside of the housing. |
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Corners, this design has them and that is a big problem. The corners I am worried about are both in the housing and on the rotor, where the apex of the rotor will try to seal against the central curve of the housing. (Bottom center of picture.) These two points will create hot spots that will pre-ignite the fuel mixture and even if they didn’t, the corner of the rotor passes the corner of housing point to point. On paper this may not seem like an issue, but in the real world, where exact rotor position cannot be assured, this is disastrous. You have designed something without tolerances. |
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Speaking of tolerances, we come to seals. Your design lacks and needs to lack apex seals. Apex seals are an issue for Wankel engines but that is nothing compared to the issues you will face. Your design calls for “area seals”, which I can only assume means an area of close tolerances that gas will not pass by, but that doesn’t work, if it did, pistons wouldn’t need rings. You cannot even add seals, because if you did, they would catch on the corners that I mentioned in the second paragraph. |
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Tolerances. Without seals that can adapt to wide tolerances, you need close tolerances, but you cannot have close tolerances because you have a non-standard motion. If the motion were simple spinning, you can have reasonably close tolerances because bearings are well developed, but you can’t. You’ve never explained how you get your rotor to move in it’s correct orbit, but I can only assume a pair of gears with the rotor attached to a conconcentric part of one of the gears. (Think spirograph.) In any case it will have some slop and this design can’t have slop. If the rotor is not EXACTLY in it’s correct orbit, it will BIND in the housing. |
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It is possible that you can redesign this to eliminate the corners, but until you do, it can only be half-baked. |
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I spent quite a long time examining this idea and I feel that it shows a critical lack of experience with any sort of practical application. Briliantly ellegant but completely lacking fundamental structures and ignorant of the real world problems of heat, combustion, seals, bearings, fluids, friction and efficiency. ok, this is the HB, but rotary seems dead serious about this idea. Nobody I talked to thought the idea would work or that the fueling system that he proposes makes any sense. Further the idea of a complicated pump that would contaminate the medium with soot made little sense. Also he seems ignorant of cavitation which would ABSOLUTELY limit the speed of the pump. |
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Oh, I have already talked with [WcW] in “Slow-burning fuel engine” article of [pashute] regarding the seals. This might a little bit clarify some queries of [MisterQED]. Here is the excerpt: |
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// Do i see 16 apex seal and 32(36?) planetary seals? How do we get the air in? do the rotors float? How do we start it?-----WcW, Mar 29 2008 // |
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// WcW, the tightly fitted outer rotor walls (or cladding), the inner housing four contoured apexes/tips and inner rotor three contoured apexes/tips act as seals: They can be separate and spring-loaded in larger models or integral feature in thinner and smaller ones. The air is channeled in through air filter then to the suction chambers as intake ports in the rotors are inherently uncovered by its unique movement. The rotor components are fixed by a single bolt and aligned by three pins while assembled together with the housing. Starting is achieved either by hydraulic means (by reversing the hydraulic pump), or by pneumatic means (by introducing compressed air to the turbine side)…. –rotary, Mar 29 2008 // |
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See link provided and another link to clarify the good insight of [MisterQED] drawing. Sorry for further delay of my promised thorough presentation due to priority constraints. My apologies |
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[WcW] I agree and [rotary], I would not be so critical except you seem so serious that this will work in the real world and I’m not saying it won’t, just not in its present configuration. It seems to have exacerbated all the issues that have held back the Wankel, but more on that later. |
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[rotary] // the inner housing four contoured apexes/tips and inner rotor three contoured apexes/tips act as seals: They can be separate and spring-loaded in larger models//
No, they can’t. If they pop out at all they will be sheared off as they strike the outer housing. Rounding the edge of the outer housing will soften the blow, but it will only delay the inevitable. Wankel seals can be spring loaded because they are in constant contact with the housing, yours aren’t, so they can’t. |
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As for your link, it is what I used to create my drawing. Actually I created a series of drawings that I was going to create a motion GIF like the one I linked to, but once I looked seriously at the first I realized it wasn’t worth the effort. |
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// The rotor components are fixed by a single bolt and aligned by three pins while assembled together with the housing.// What is this all about? Your pictures show four bolts at the corners of the outer housing. Do you think that three can be replaced with pins? This would leave one bolt in one corner and nothing holding down the other corners but what, glue? Are the three pins perpendicular to the rotor axis? Pins are only good for shear loads. |
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These points may seem nit picky, for the half-bakery, but you are an engineering student who entered this idea in to a contest and you act like you take it very seriously, so, so have I. |
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You started with a Wankel type rotor and tried to improve it which is a good idea. Wankels hold grand possibilities, but see little use for three main reasons: thermal losses, sealing issues the general inefficiencies due to the inadequate expansion of the power stroke common to most engines. The thermal losses come from the heat escaping into the large area housing walls as the charge is pushed along its path. The old RX7s used to have enormous radiators to dump all the heat. Your “solution” actually magnifies the issue by having more surface area per displaced volume and then you say you will not be cooling it because it will be made of ceramics. Sealing issues in the Wankel come from the varying attack angle of the seal against the housing and the issue of sealing the 90 degree angle interface at the ends of the rotors. Your design replaces one dimensional contact seals with two dimensional non-contact seals. The inefficiencies of the power stroke are nearly universal in internal combustion engines, in that a volume of gas is compressed ~10 times, then heated and then only allowed to expand back the ~10 times before being exhausted, instead of the 20 or 30 times necessary to extract all the extra energy out. You solve this by introducing a Miller cycle which pushes back out some of the air that the rotor sucked in before closing the port and compressing the charge. Also you added in extra time at full compression to allow for complete burning of fuel which should gain you some efficiency. |
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The result is that at present your design has more problems then the design it is trying to replace. |
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/// The rotor components are fixed by a single bolt and aligned by three pins while assembled together with the housing.// |
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I think this refers to an image about half way through the slide show. The 2 rotors appear to attach to one another at the center of the engine(where the flat center plate is located) With a single large Allen bolt and three smaller pins positioned in the trilobe section at the center. |
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I still am unclear as to where the combustion step occurs(I asked this before and got no answer) Is thew combustion taking place in the small cavities in the main rotor body that appear to have small vent slits along their edges? |
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Where is the ignition source that fires the fuel mixture, while I assume that diesel or other oil type fuels would self ignite, gasoline would I assume not do so in this engine, so where does the spark come from. Also I have not identified the air flow passage that allows for intake and then differential exhaust as the center plate seems to limit cross flow only to the center trilobe section. |
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Where is the Fuel charge introduced and when during the cycle, if it is introduced during the compression phase would not some of it escape out the small secondary port? If it is injected at the moment at TDC then what is the mechanism by which this occurs(ie where is the fuel injector) Last how is the combus5tion chamber(if it is the space in the rotor body) flushed of the combustion byproducts prior to the next combustion cycle, or does each chamber go through a 4 stroke cycle? It seems that with such a design you would experience stratification in the combustion chamber that would lead to rapid carbon buildup as there is no cross flow of the chamber. |
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[masterQED] Isn't a roots type blower an area seal type design(I realize there is no combustion to deal with of course) These types of blowers are capable of extremely high pressure(or vacuum, ive actually seen a diesel trucks engine stopped and spun in reverse by a large roots type blower on a positive displacement vacuum truck) My initial guess is that the problem comes from the reciprocating motion of the rotor(changing orientation in this case) is where the problem comes in but I was curious to get an expert opinion. |
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[jhomrighaus] // Isn't a roots type blower an area seal type design// Yes and just to double check, I went to Wikipedia (link). And true there is no combustion and specifically there is very little heat involved, which is important because heat would cause the metal to expand and the rotors to touch. The rotors in a roots blower turn in simple rotation, so you can use very tight tolerance bearings and very small area gap seals as long as there is very little heat. |
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//These types of blowers are capable of extremely high pressure// No, they are commonly used for moderate boost <5psi. Actually they are most commonly used in Detriot two-stroke diesels, where they don’t actually act as superchargers, just blowers to force air into the motors at normal pressure. The reason they don’t work at high pressures is that the seals don’t work all that well and extra pressure would cause heating, which causes expansion, which causes metal-to-metal contact. |
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//ive actually seen a diesel trucks engine stopped and spun in reverse by a large roots type blower on a positive displacement vacuum truck// Yes, that would work. If you put enough vacuum on a Detroit diesel, it will stop and turn backwards. |
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See Link above to the Ace Guzzler Dry Vac Truck that uses a 5300CFM Roots Trilobe Pump for pressure/Vacuum. I know personally that these can achieve more than 30PSI and hold that through the Trilobe for some period of time. They will also stop the engine if placed on full vacuum with no intake air. |
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OK, I'm probably off, so let's say they can do double that, so 60psi. That is still only 5:1 compression. On certain pumps they may add contact seals on the rotor apexs. You can do that with teflon and let them bed in to interference fit at first run up. Either way that is still a long way from 10:1 static compression in engines or the crazy pressures attained when the fuel ignites, but most importantly it is with a rotor that is constrained very accurately in simple rotation and having little or no heat expansion so the gap can be fine tuned to limit leakage. |
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I have thoroughly studied long before the roots type blower/compressor/engine yet have not found one which has area contact between the lobes (only line contact), although their tips have area contact spring-loaded seals for the housing. I haven't found any solution yet how to achieve that with rigid rotors. Please let me know if someone arrived with a solution to that. For the moment, I cannot abandon my configuration in favor of roots-type design. |
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Dude will you answer the questions that I'm asking, for butts sake man I've only asked you to explain specific technical details 2 or three times now. I'm beginning to suspect the reason you don't answer is that you have no answers. Mind clearing that mystery up for me? |
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[jhomrighaus], my engine is diesel fueled and of compression-ignition type, so, there are no spark plugs ever. Fuel is sprayed by using the principle of air injector without a separate compressor tank but instead using the compressor portion of the rotor, so the combustion is expected to be very instantaneous (best for high-speed operation). |
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Take a look at the 3 semi-circular outer groove near the apexes of the nickel-colored expander rotor in pictures “rotor-g” and “rotary engine9997” (or “rotary engine9998” so you will not be dazzled by the nickel sheen of the rotor, as the housing outlined one of the rotor apex): a cavity formed by one of it and a housing wall is needed to create a combustion chamber for the air compressed by the corresponding outer compression chamber of the purple compressor rotor {this creates a nearly ideal constant volume combustion process I mentioned before}. That is one of the 3 simultaneously burning combustion chambers; the other two are pre-chambers located in the rotor-assembly middle portion with their corresponding compression chambers formed between the purple rotor inner cavity and bronze colored 4-lobed inner housing, and between that 4-lobed inner housing inner cavity and the bubble-gum colored 3-lobed inner compressor rotor. The purple rotor has linear-arrayed intake slits/ports: 3 arrays in the outer side located near the apexes and 3 arrays in the inner side located near the 3 convex corners (see images “rotary engine8”, “rotary engine9”, “rotor-l” & “rotor-m”). The bubble-gum colored 3-lobed inner compressor rotor has 3 groups of linear-arrayed intake slits/ports located in its apexes (see “rotor-h” image). |
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Are you planning to make a working model, friends? Or, do you mean you are planning to enter the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE? If so, we badly need each other to be successful, for the emerging technologies would surely be unprecedented (and that challenge excites me most; I have a lot of designs in reserve and aces up my sleeve to win overwhelmingly). |
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I am quite satisfied that, even if this can work as an engine, it probably isn't worth the trouble. As pure geometry, on the other hand, it is a thing of beauty. I think you are mistaken, [rotary], in believing that you have designed an engine. You have designed a strategy for setting out a cathedral, the way cathedrals ought to be set out, at scale 1:1 on the ground, using ropes and pegs. |
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All you need to do now is develop one diagonal into a transept, and one of the remaining corners into a nave and westwork. You've already got a chevet, complete with sanctuary and radiating chapels (more if you have a mind to develop them), in the remaining corner. |
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I'm not making fun of you, I'm perfectly serious. It would make for a brilliant cathedral. |
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Oh, you mean a monumental cathedral-like colossal rotating and revolving well-ventilated power-generating museum of the future in commemoration of the first and the best ZTE(zero thermal expansion)ceramic, near net-shaped ceramic-manufactured, synergistic ceramic composite, boric-acid lubricated, truly adiabatic, long-lasting, silent rotary engine that had humans able to fly like birds. |
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[Ned_Ludd], Do you mean you would like your name to be commemorated on its podium and resonated around its walls as its advocate, or as its skeptic? Please clarify... |
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No, [rotary], if I'd meant a power station I'd have said so. If I'd meant a "museum to the future" (which may or may not be an oxymoron but might in either event very likely be a dreadful thing) I'd have said so. If I'd meant a monument (and probable mausoleum) to my or your pride - still prime among the deadly sins - I'd have said so. |
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I meant a cathedral. That I would most certainly advocate, for whatever my advocacy might be worth. |
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Shirley the [HB] is monument enough for the eponymous inspirer of the Luddites? |
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//The next logical step would be, when the necessity arises to save fuel, flying the car straightforwardly with its ducted lifting fans, avoiding the more energy-consuming winding road ahead.// Sweet. This is more typical HB material-- cool, original, and wildly impractical. |
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I am revising my [-] to a [+] due to [rotary]'s detailed animations, which show an impressive amount of effort and several new ideas. I am impressed, but still confused. I boned before because this idea was difficult to understand and seemed impractical/flawed. |
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I am still confused: Due to the unique design of this engine, it is not obvious where fuel goes in, how it is ignited, and where exhaust goes out. |
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A numbered diagram of the different steps of this engine's cycle would make it clear what exactly is making this thing work, and would make it easier for [rotary] to quickly explain the workings of this engine to people. I see description in the idea posting and in comments, and animations of it working, but I'm not willing to read through two pages of text multiple times and watch animations multiple times to figure it out. I would like to see a series of numbered picture to illustrate each step of the cycle, along with a less-than-12-word description of what is happening at that point in the cycle, with all schematics and descriptions fitting on a normal 8.5x11 sheet of paper with 12+point font. |
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[rotary], have you looked into getting this thing made? I anticipate difficulty with machining the tubular triangular/cloverleaf part in the middle. Making a working prototype is needed to verify that this thing actually works. |
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But first, have you talked about this idea with an engineer who's currently employed designing engines for a car company? I would guess you could get more useful information in a half-hour lunch with an engine designer/expert than you could ever get on halfbakery. I would suggest you make //a clear cycle description of how this motor works//, in addition to the animations, find an expert in this field, and take him/her out to lunch in exchange for understanding and giving you some brief advice on this idea. |
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My experience suggesting this course of action comes from an experience I had working on an invention that started out as a n engineering school project. I wanted to make some molds for injection molding, and got some advice on how to do it from machine shop staff who had a little experience with it. After I had invested a substantial amount of time in trying to do this, I visited a professional injection molding place, and realized that the process I was trying to do would not produce the result I wanted. I could have saved many hours by visiting the experts first. I suggest you do the same before you get too emotionally invested in this. Chances are, it will not work. But, good luck! |
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//Are you planning to make a working model, friends?// There is no way <b><i> I </b></i> am making a prototype of this thing. I barely understand how it would work (assuming the design isn't flawed somehow). [rotary], the prototype business is up to you. But talk to an expert first. Also, I'm sorry, but I'm not your friend, except in the loosest sense. I don't even know you. I read your idea, tell you what I think of it, wish you the best possible luck, and await further developments with interest, but I don't expect to ever actually meet you in any social or professional capacity. |
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Also, I suggest that the idea title describe the engine (ie Infinite-Compression-Ratio Wankel Engine or something similar) rather than describing what it's good for or as "perfect" for anything. I want to make up my own mind about how good it is. |
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Thanks [sninctown] of your very heartfelt annotation (man, methinks you made me feel at fault for not even having close to half your faintest ardor). You have a fair assessment of how massive are my efforts into building this idea, yet (by saying //too emotionally invested// and //expect to…meet you…social…capacity//) you fail to notice how lighthearted I am into posting this idea here in Halfbakery, friend. |
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See, I never made a slight effort to profit from this by patenting (this further sealed my incapacity to patent such). Notice too that I never fret into how should my peers rate it–my stance even suggest the contrary. I somehow mused of the universal fact that any idea is remarkable enough if boned (/sneered?) to the max. Yet, “I” believe that any counterintuitive idea is truly remarkable only if proven successful beyond “my” normal comprehension of the moment: unless proven totally successful, this idea is half-baked. |
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Much like a comprehensive technical publication is distinguishable to a riveting newspaper so is a scientific blog to a multifaceted forum like HB: so, that title is suitable enough (your suggestion too is amply valid). Also, a descriptive title would be too redundant to one who has time to pore over the technical links. This idea is not meant to be taken seriously, unless you are its enthusiast who happens to be an engineer and a scientist too, together with having a privilege of an expedient time to mind other’s business/affairs (whom to such I am a yielding friend). |
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There are lots of gems here in HB to cash into also. In comparison, mine is a very minuscule part of the total whole at home close to the chest of HB’s treasure-trove of categories. |
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//You have a fair assessment of how massive are my efforts into building this idea//
//This idea is not meant to be taken seriously// |
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I'm confused. If you don't take this seriously, then what are you doing?? WHY?? |
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Your single-minded focus on this idea, as shown through your detailed animations, postings on multiple websites, and lack of other HB ideas, suggests that you care deeply about this idea. However, you don't take it seriously enough to concisely describe what your idea actually is or believe it could actually work. This is a contradiction bordering on insanity. |
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If you care, you should make this idea easier to understand by making a single picture describing it, and stop mixing in new design "improvements" to solve every problem anyone suggests. That way, people can easily see what the current design you are proposing is. Not doing this is wasting peoples' time. |
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If you don't care, then you should make it clear that you don't want to be taken seriously, so we can know not to make the effort needed to understand this, and instead can make jokes. |
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//Yet I have to keep an open mind on other possible redesign to achieve a truly perfect engine; there are still a handful of exciting improvements I am exploring: I am praying somehow God would provide me the best environment to realize these dreams.// |
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Good luck. To some extent, you make your own environment. Providing an easy-to-read description of this idea would make it easier for other people to help you. |
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//I never made a slight effort to profit from this// |
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Well, you can profit from it indirectly by learning about engines and taking pride in doing something cool. If this engine is as good as you say, you could profit from it even without a patent. But, given the low chance of this design being viable, multiplied by the low chance of you actually trying to build this, I doubt there will be any profits. In fact, this idea has already cost you substantial time, and therefore money. |
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There's nothing wrong with taking a flawed idea seriously-- learning how it is flawed can lead to better ideas, or at least cessation of constant mental effort thinking about how wonderful this idea would be if it happened to be viable. Putting serious effort into a non-serious idea is obsessive insanity. |
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My opinion is: If you care, pull together the ideas that you have into a clear, concise summary, and go talk to an expert. If you don't care, stop wasting your time. |
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Alright, that's enough HB for me for awhile. |
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// await further developments with interest, but I don't expect to ever actually meet you in any social or professional capacity // Oh boy [sninctown], watch how your fellow puckish kids bore dads for expecting too much goodies. Same to us, dear—better ask me the right stuff: rather than nagging for rotary candies, better cajole me (in vain) how they’re made (so you can trumpet an elegant Engineering culinary class project sooner). Be childlike like Mike Tyke, rather than stay childish dervish/popish, or cloddish as fish (with flawed eyes staring blank at the perfect pearl). |
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// cool, original, and wildly impractical // // seemed impractical/flawed // // I'm not willing to read through two pages of text multiple times and watch animations multiple times to figure it out // // Chances are, it will not work // // I want to make up my own mind about how good it is // I think it’s much better you make a statement that there was no such herald before Oedipus that came close to the gates of Thebes before him, than these. And oh, boy, this idea somehow made you a naysayer! |
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And, little babe, you like Mechanical Engineering… So, hurry! Better crack the enigmatic assembly of this idea fast before the bionic Sphinx is brought from her half-life! (Or, we risk the enhanced life of your engineering profession!) |
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Yeah, [rotary] you stopped taking the meds again didn't you. |
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PS My machine with AutoCAD died so I haven't drawn it up, but I think I know how to solve one of the problems you are going to have, motion. Take a clue from these guys http://www.starrotor.com
but use your three pointed star and four point housing and convert your rotor motion into simple rotation and rotate the housing around a separate axis. It complicates the ignition and the injection, but it makes the seals possible I think. |
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Best of luck and remember the meds. |
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[MisterQED], do you expect me to foolishly agree with you that lobe pump has better seal than piston rings? After all this time that I demonstrated an area contact seal rotary mechanism, are you still fascinated by Internal Lobe type pumps? For your info, they all have line contact sealing (or maybe it is hard for you to understand what line-contact sealing is). And, if you worry too much about the shifting axis of rotation, then you might as well look at this site: http://dds78dan78.free.fr/ and advice the creators at the left of the link image of my engine that their shifting axis of rotation is flawed too. For more info, just click at the links I provided here. |
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//Why don't you consider an idiots guide to gas flow, showing compression/ignition etc? Something like as shown for the Otto cycle, linked.//
//Thanks, [Voice] and [Ling]. Wait a little longer, friends, for I am still preparing for some animated presentation to make my invention downright clear to everyone who at least knew the basic engine already.//
//I would like to see a series of numbered picture to illustrate each step of the cycle, along with a less-than-12-word description of what is happening at that point in the cycle, with all schematics and descriptions fitting on a normal 8.5x11 sheet of paper with 12+point font.// |
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Just to let you know: I'm still waiting for enlightenment. The inner workings of your engine might be perfectly obvious to you, but I have no idea where or if the engine has ports; valves and timing functions, or what the gas flow is, where the compression occurs; ignition; intake or exhaust. |
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By the way, have you calculated the acceleration of the rotor when it changes direction? |
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ling you are not alone. Sometimes passion for a concept makes describing it in a succinct fashion impossible. This seems to be just such a case. |
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[WcW] or when you work on something for a long time, tacking down all the details... then you find it's going to be just as much work if not more, to translate the x-dimensional concept that you've polished between your ears, into something linear that can be understood by other people... whole 'nother artform. |
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Well, since I noted the negative commentaries, the engine is in imaginary iteration as the rotor is perfectly centered on its axis of rotation and the casing follows a looping path perfect for the kinematic setup of my reconfigured mechanism of its continuously-variable automatic transmission with positive contacts (opposed to sliding contacts of CVTs). By the way, the rotation-restrained housing is effectively counter-weighted/balanced by fluid displacement process. |
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Rotary, I have proof that your engine won't work, but sadly this annotation box is too small for me to write it out. I'll post a link, later. |
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