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As it is obviously going to be very difficult to take on whoever is responsible for the attacks directly, the world should rebuild the WTC in defiance.
Get Frank Gehry, or Richard Meier, or both, to design the tallest, biggest most beautiful building(s) ever to replace the twin towers.
A memorial
on the site would be appropriate too. I don't want to mention a cemetry because the thought of that is too mindboggling.
Comments on the WTC collapse
http://cryptome.org/wtc-collapse.htm
Discusses the structural reasons for why it collapsed and how the constructors flouted building safety regulations in opposition from the fire department. Probably not a good idea to build another skyscraper that high. [Jim, Sep 13 2001]
the slashdot idea...
http://www.sublimedirectory.com/pod.jpg
[futurebird, Sep 13 2001, last modified Oct 17 2004]
(?) Frank Lloyd Wright's mile-high skyscraper
http://www.primenet.../~byoder/flwill.jpg
This needs to be built, even without the atomic elevators. [rmutt, Sep 13 2001, last modified Oct 17 2004]
My personal preference for the redesign.
http://members-http...net/biffsparky/WTC/
"...incorporates a gesture and spirit familiar to all New Yorkers." [StarChaser, Sep 13 2001, last modified Oct 17 2004]
(?) What is a troll?
http://tuxedo.org/~...ml/entry/troll.html
From Jargon File, for Zircon (and GeorgeTheRobin, inter alia) [pottedstu, Feb 01 2002, last modified Oct 17 2004]
skyscrapers.com
http://www.skyscrap...ht2/bt02/index.html
Proposed Tokyo Skyscrapers [ferret, May 27 2002, last modified Oct 17 2004]
"95-Year-Old Plans Considered at WTC Site"
http://story.news.y...ks_historic_plans_1
Gaudi! [waugsqueke, Oct 17 2004]
The chosen plan
http://www.dailytel.../02/28/ixworld.html
Building to begin in '05. [RayfordSteele, Oct 17 2004]
ha ha
http://www.csee.umb...orldTradeCenter.jpg
[hippo, May 01 2005]
(?) Penn and Teller agree with me
http://www.ridingsu...ts/1158148491.shtml
[mrthingy, Sep 16 2006]
[link]
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Note: this is not to be confused with a New World Order centre. That would be very different. |
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I'd like to see the towers rebuilt exactly as they were, to sort of say 'fuck you, you can't take this from us.' But I imagine that not all the bodies will be recovered and so the authorities will be reluctant to rebuild on the site. |
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[Jim] The fact that it's a bad idea is the best reason to do it. |
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I imagine that a memorial of some sort will be built, however. |
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someone on slashdot suggested that we build the two towers just as they were but we put a third tower in the middle much taller than the two others as to flip off whoever did this |
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Well some of the most significant constructions are built on the tombs of the people who built them, such as the Great Wall of China. |
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I think it would have a bigger in-your-face effect on terrorists if the WTC was replaced by something even bigger and better. What about the first Mile-high skyscraper? |
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I like this idea just as long as it's a trade "center" and not a trade "centre"... |
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but thanks for playing our song today at the changing of the guards... it meant a lot. |
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Yeah, but harlem needs parks more than wall st. there are tons of parks downtown... |
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Also, there is housing there that sprung up just so that people could work in the WTC. |
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I second futurebird's sentiments on the changing of the guards. A beautiful gesture. |
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Hmm, well it is the WORLD Trade Center/Centre after all. But since its in the US we'll let you have it your way. |
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I'm not a Brit though I'm a kiwi. Still, churches here have been filling up every day for prayer vigils. Most NZers are quite affected. The same can't be said for the dorks threatening arabs. |
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I have to say the idea of a park sounds good, but practicality probably means they'll be needing the WTC back where it was. |
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Who knows who long it'll be before they rebuild though. |
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The only way to have an impact on the terrorists would be if the WTC could be rebuilt overnight. They achieved their goals and proved that you don't have to be intelligent to destroy property and murder innocent people. They hide behind a veil of dogma, spitting out their vile, twisted ideologies, claiming to be right and just. Rant, rant, rant. Whew! I feel better now. |
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I say rebuild, incorporating a memorial park into the new design. Consider using *stealth* construction techniques so you can't see the new towers from the air and put gun turrets on the roof to pick off approaching aircraft. |
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If you rebuild it - there is an obvious potential for the same thing to happen all over again. Would you want to work in a new super-tall World Trade Centre? Workers would spend all day watching the skies rather than their screens.
Tuesday's events may see skyscraper plans in London (e.g. 1200ft London Bridge needle) and other cities put on hold for some time to come.
My best wishes go out to everyone in New York City - a still great metropolis, that should and will be rebuilt - perhaps just a little differently. |
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Osama Bin Laden is a multi-billionaire who lives in a cave. Find out how caves can be penetrated, penetrate caves in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Then build penetrationless caves. |
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As much as we (the West) want to stand in defiance of terrorism, don't you think it is more important that we focus on making sure this sort of thing never happens again? |
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sdm is 100% correct. Symbolic gestures of defiance have only ever added to the fury of the Provisional I.R.A and E.T.A.
It is a bitter pill to have to swallow though, and if I was American I don't think I'd be ready to hear it yet. |
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If you rebuild it - they will come...
I say we build it back to an extent. How about if we build it half as tall and put a bunch of it underground? Yall would know better then me about how feasible that would be, but still, it's an idea.
On a side note, I was reading this and listening to the radio at the same time and right when I read the word 'China' in the 5th annotation they said something about it on the radio. |
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I like the idea of building a park. Lilek's bleat today
http://www.lileks.com/bleats/index.html mentions we don't need symbols
for freedom when we have the real thing. |
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I disagree, UB; if I didn't have to work to eat, someone else would have to be feeding me - I would feel tied to that person out of guilt and gratitude and that, to me, would be less free. I don't feel compelled to behave the way I do because of society, I feel that the way I behave is what creates the society and creates the environment by which I am surrounded. My definition of 'free' comes from the way I have grown up, and therefore no-one can tell me what is true freedom, just as I could tell no-one else that my sense of freedom will fit them too. |
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From a psychological standpoint, would anyone want to go to work in another large tower on that site again? |
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I hope you are right Rods Tiger. Having thought about it some more, I believe that rebuilding offices there, in addition to a memorial of course, would tell these terrorists that the world will not be held hostage by fear. Interesting, I was just at Canary Wharf very recently on a trip to London, even rode the DLR there, going through South Quay station. I had no idea it had even been bombed. I hope, and I believe we will, be just as resilient. |
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Of course, they got the Pentagon too and that's not exactly a skyscraper. |
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Sure, rebuild the WTC. (Emotional response, on my part: I had a bit of family history around the Twin Towers, and I am mourning the whole area now.) Put the memorial park between the towers ... and quietly install air and ground traffic monitoring stations (and anti-aircraft missile turrets, perhaps?) inside strategic top, middle, and lower floors. |
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Yes, it will take time to do this. We've got the time; the American people aren't going anywhere, much to the disappointment of those few who have been trying to drag us into this war for years. |
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My sentimental favorite idea is still the capture and trial of the entire Taliban. If these aren't war crimes, I don't know what is. |
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so glad you are back futurebird |
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love from london with bells and whistles |
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Hi all! Nice to see the new members of Halfbakery
Glad to see the return of the older members, also. |
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In my opinion:
New WTC -- I wouldn't even name it that; some things are better left retired, and I think the WTC name fits that description.
Memorial -- Yes indeed. I think. Would Kremlin-style walls fit nicely among the remaining structures?
Guns and Rockets -- I'm still predominantly against the idea. Stucture the defense to incorporate emf pulses or instrumentation scrambling jamming devices that aren't ugly and I'll agree.
Hypocracy alert -- Beware a country that assuages the feelings of profiteers who took money to allow undocumented terrorists ability to train in the US, and don't allow our government to resist taking what money those terrorists may have left. |
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Yeah reensure, that reminds me of something I've been told recently. Can anyone confirm or deny for me that the CIA actually trained Bin Laden to fight their enemies in the mid-east? Or is that just some movie plot someone has got confused with. |
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It would be the ultimate irony if that was true. |
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There was in article in today's New York Times (by John Tierney) suggesting that New York should build better, more modern buildings in the present site rather than rebuild the old WTC. |
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He also says most New Yorkers are in favor of rebuilding. |
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I say let the New Yorkers decide. If they want to rebuild, rebuild. If they want a park, build 'em a park. |
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But then again, knowing the real estate value of office space in New York and the current office shortage thanks to the attack, the likelyhood of seeing a park is inifinitesmal. (Is that spelled right?) |
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As to UnaBubba's thoughts on *real* freedom, isn't it nice that we can discuss our freedoms and infringements on them in a public forum like this? |
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"The World Trade Center is a living symbol of man's dedication to world peace . . . beyond the compelling need to make this a monument to world peace, the World Trade Center should, because of its importance, become a representation of man's belief in human dignity, his need for individual dignity, his beliefs in cooperation of men, and through cooperation, his ability to find greatness."
--Minoru Yamasaki, designer of the World Trade Center |
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Quite a good reason to rebuild. |
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I don't think defiance is at all important. <rant>I don't think violent response is all that helpful either. And exactly who has America declared war on?</rant> |
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A memorial is almost mandatory; a park would be appropriate. Build another symbolically titanic tower in your own time (the WTC took 15 years, didn't it?) and in an appropriate location (maybe Lower Manhattan, maybe not). It's not important now. |
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UB as much as I would like to disagree with you sometime, I really like the idea of the Buddha towers |
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I'm surprised no one's suggested a jello World Trade Center yet. Just watch those jets slosh harmlessly into its side and gently slither down to earth. |
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Also be much harder to hit, especially in high winds. |
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[pottedstu]: I don't know... that cream suit with that (literally) lime green office? Call me old fashioned, but the fashion police would definitely have their work cut out. |
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I sure pick some times to decide to go on holiday in the Middle East. Around Easter I was going to go to Dubai... until Dubya decided to restart bombing Iraq (and who can blame him?). And guess where I've just spent the last week... I would have been shitting a brick on the flight home if I hadn't been so damn tired. |
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I say we rebuild it in Afghanistan, that way if they attack it, they are destroying their own land as well.... |
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Should we cover the Statue of Libery head to toe with black fabric - leaving only the eyes exposed? |
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Nah, we should put her in shorts and a cropped T-shirt with her navel exposed. |
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zero5 - it is true the CIA trained and copiously equipped bin laden and all his buddies for TERRORIST warfare because they were fighting the russians |
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the taliban regime is also some sort of legacy from those times |
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mrthingy - but from the air the pentagon looks a bit like a giant target |
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how come no-one talks about the pentagon, just the WTC? admittedly the WTC had more people in and was civillian and was completely destroyed but still wouldnt you expect a bit more attention? that one would give the conspiracy theorists a fit "you see there is obviously a massive conspiracy of everyone just against me because no-one else mentions it" or "there are aliens in there because this guy i met in a chatroom said his friend saw a video of someone saying they had seen a UFO flying along behind the plane" |
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gosh i really am talking a lot of bollocks today |
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Chud: "how come no-one talks about the pentagon, just the WTC?" |
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Because, "the WTC had more people in and was civillian and was completely destroyed". |
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The Pentagon might be seen as a legitimate target, being military. There's no way that the Towers could have been. |
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The only reason we might build a park is if it is ultimatly determined that rebuilding the WTC is simply to expensive.
I hope a new WTC is built and a memorial put on the first floor of the building. But it is no doubt going to take over 3 yr just to fully clean up the mess at ground zero and restore stability to the underground tunnel systems. |
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There is a severely limited amount of space in downtown NY. It won't be too expensive to rebuild. |
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Yeah. It's more a question of whether the economy in New York can afford to *not* rebuild it. |
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How about something like this and a similar shift in foreign and domestic policy? |
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http://www.city.hiroshima.jp/ |
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Yeah, the Japanese don't have any problems at all with terrorists... |
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Try doing a little research. |
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Star, speaking of research did you look at the site? Regardless of inevitable problems with the odd minority, Japan went through a period of self examination with a view to self improvement. What a concept eh? |
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And they still have their own terrorists trying to set off nerve gas in subways. |
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um, yeah, thanks for spelling it out to me star. Which bit of *inevitable problems with minorities* was tough? Still, not signing the anti-ABM treaty is a step towards self improvement eh? As is financing Israel's current behaviour. We may all get to see stars yet but I'd rather keep my feet on the ground thanks. |
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No problem, helping the clueless is my job. Yes, I read the site. It's a lot of 'rah-rah for aren't we so cool now and the rest of the world should be like us'...and no real meat. |
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oh, tech support, would that encourage a blind spot to self improvement? A positive and ethical way forward is no real meat? Have you noticed defiance just breeds more defiance? Getting back to the idea a memorial park is a lovely plan and would work so well on a day to day human level. |
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'Have you noticed defiance breeds more defiance?' |
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Yes, you keep trying to intimidate me, and it just isn't working. |
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I think the best memorial would be replacing the buildings as best fits the space, with a small pig farm in one corner, with OBL and cronies in a cage beneath. |
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//sarcastic tone// um, yeah, thanks again for spelling it out to me star. //end of sarcastic tone// |
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Is that easier? I’m not being intimidating – I’m holding the point of view that in only recognising intimidation as a one-way street, your government will not progress it's foreign policy to any safe effect for any of us. |
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I like your idea though – maybe they could be Hannibal’s wild boars rather than pigs and everyone be in the pit. Very much like The Animal Olympics Of Death, only with humans. Nice one. |
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Your sarcasm is pretty weak, too. And, as I said, helping the clueless is my job. |
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Unfortunately, I can't teach reading for comprehension. You have to learn that yourself. Try reading what I wrote, rather than reading what you think I wrote. |
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I think you're playing a move behind. |
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To simplify - 3 words - ethical foreign policy. Another 3 words - war on terrorism. Now don't go getting them mixed up now. |
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"'ethical' foreign policy" means 'do what I want', which is what the terrorists were hoping for. That we would change our policy to what they wanted. It isn't going to work. |
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O-Henry Bin Liner wants to be caliph of the world, by destroying everyone who doesn't believe the same thing he does. I, personally, don't feel like being one of his slaves, and refuse to change -anything- because he, or you, want it. |
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oh never mind, good luck with the war. Don't go changing, it's a black and white world in tech support. |
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Ok Ghandi, you have the floor. What, exactly, would you do? |
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Apparently the World Trade Tower might not get built due to the current fall in demand in America for office space that is impossible to evacuate and because skyscrapers are inefficient beyond a certain point. New York and other American cities may have to adapt to life with smaller, safer office buildings. |
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As a pacifist by principle I really ought to point out that Osama bin Laden's "Foundation" was only able to exist because a lot of people were angry and they were able to focus this on America. Afghanistan was a major Cold War battleground and it really should have been stablised by the wealthier side once the Cold War ended. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is also an open sore and one in which a lot of people saw America as partisan. Iraq is still a source of disquiet. |
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It simply makes sense to try and stablise troublespots by peaceful methods. You don't stop terrorism by making martyrs out of people. You stop it by seeking to allow people to choose peace for themselves, thus denying would-be terrorists necessary support. |
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While I doubt if this would be economical, I wonder how much it would cost to construct a pair of buildings which from the exerior resembled the WTC, but on the interior had almost nothing but trusswork and a few elevators between, say, the 60th floor and an observation deck? If you don't need to have much habitable space inside, a truss-framed structure can use a surprisingly small amount of material. |
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If they rebuild the world trade centre they should put a damn big anti aircraft missile system on top |
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Oh and surely the best path is to both treat people in general equally and well (i.e. make ethical forigin policy alterations) AT THE SAME TIME AS sending special forces to kill members of terrorists organisations in their beds*. That way you are doing the ethically right thing (the former) but I doubt the latter could be concived as giving into the terrorists. There both sides happy. end of argument. |
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*After all from disscussions with Bin Laden make it clear that he and many of his followers would like to see islamic governments across the western world, the break up of the U.S. and advocate the killing of westerners. These people will not change these views and settle down even in the face of the most wide ranging changes to forign policy, they must be eliminated *but quietly*. |
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Ooh I do hope that was sarcastic. Obviously a regime that sponsors the quiet killing of people in their beds is a terrorist one. |
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I don't that was sarcastic. A lot of people have failed to grasp that the way to deal with alledged terrorism is not with more terror. |
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supercat: One of the tragedies was that the low paid people staffing the resturants at the top floor had the worst chance to escape the WTC. So having just an occupied top floor would not help matters. |
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I recommend a peace monument for those people who are killed by terrorism - with the motto "We will try not to resort to the level of terrorists" on it. Hopefully this will inspire people to give peace a chance. |
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I thought all-tripe would shut up when asked to put up... |
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I like your idea of the monument, but it still needs to be in the lobby or court of the replaced building rather than replacing it. |
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I'm of the opinion that what is left of the WTC should be left exactly as it is, just as the Japanese did with the A-Dome in Hiroshima. The Hiroshima Peace Park is nice, but it is the A-Dome that packs a real punch. |
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Aristotle, Jan 27 2002 -- "Hopefully this will inspire people to give peace a chance."
When talkin about the people who killed 6-7000 people and declared war on the western world I'd prfer something a little more reassuring. |
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The surest way to stop terrorism is to make it harder for terrorists to recruit people. The fastest way to encourage terrorism is to make it look to their recruiting base like they were justified in the first place. This means doing tough things, like even-handedly following international laws even when the other side appears to be unwilling. This is even when your voters are calling for popularist vengence. |
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. |
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Yay Aristotle - glad there's some sense around here. Starchaser you doughnut, I didn't respond because there's no point arguing with someone who's so totally esconsed in vengeance, and besides, Aristotle had already made all the relevant points. |
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Surely It can only be a memorial park or monument or similar, because if it goes back to being an economic centre it will demonstrate all the wrong priorities. Hasn't the mighty dollar got enough palaces in NYC? |
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[Aristotle] After we have done all the right things. Started trying to treat all people equally, stopped our biased support of certain governments and removed unfair sanctions that hurt people rather than dictators, there will still be those that hate western culture and want to kill westerners. |
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Who have demands so radical that we could not change our policy to meet them as we would infringe our own people's rights. |
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These people will still be armed. |
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What is your opinion about how to protect ourselves from such individuals, in the short term? |
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Zircon: World politics can't be explained in a short annotation so I can't give you an answer beyond what I've said already. It might be worthwhile for you to read foreign news sources to help you gain another perspective on these issues. |
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notripe: A problem with rebuilding the WTC is that it was a structurally flawed building that proved to be nigh on impossible to evacuate and did a lot of damage to the surrounding area when it collapsed. I read the obituaries of the regular people who died in there whilst working for a minimum wage and it was very moving. I would like to see a memorial there instead to remind people of the bitter cost of not building a lasting peace whenever we get the chance. |
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[Aristotle] I just re-read my earlier annotate and it seemed a little sarky. Don't misunderstand me I really do think that there should be wide ranging policy change from western countries. |
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I see what you're saying about forign news sources. I have no great illusion about how countries outside the west see those of us in the west. |
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What I'm concerned about is that, like an oil tanker making a U-turn, effecting this change will take time.
There are a number of armed and suicidal individuals in the world NOW who may be planning further 9.11 style attacks. Policy change in the long term will undermine their support and hopefully render them impotent. |
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However, demanding NO military action now leaves us vunerable in the immediate short term. All I'm saying is I wish people could be a little less polarised on this. |
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All-tripe: Yeah, right. All talk and no game. |
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Real estate in NYC is too expensive to leave it empty. It's a pretty thought, but I think the better memorial is to rebuild it and thumb the nose at the cowardly little pigpokers. |
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Don't thumb your nose; the opposite to love is indifference. Just build a neat, well constructed building that is useful to the people and companies that might want to work there. It needn't tower above the skyline. Care about providing what our own people need in terms of practicality; not what will upset others, as it probably won't anyway. |
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We should build a new WTC that can transform into a giant robot ? That'll fix 'em !! |
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[Zircon] and [gargax] have views on the WTC that I can definitely agree with. |
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As for armed and suicidal individuals America has faced these type of people on a persistant basis for a very long time. America is a big enough country to have a lot of crazy people prepared to kill their fellow citizens and save a bullet for themselves. There are also internal terrorists who kill their fellow Americans due to a hate of abortion or their own federal government. Adding foreigners to this pool of dangerous people changes very little. Recently an American kid crashed a light aircraft into a building and he had no contact with Bin Laden's Foundation. |
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I'm not saying no military option should be persued. Instead I'm saying that any persuit of a miliary option should be clearly reasoned, moderated and be seen to be performed in accordance with international law. Stopping terrorism is a long-term goal that takes a lot of careful work but inspiring people to become terrorists is unfortunately all too easy. |
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Go see "Bloody Sunday" in the cinemas for an example of the kind of perceptions that promote terrorism and then read about Sinn Fein getting offices in Westminster for a practical example of these issues. |
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Today for the first time, when I saw this idea in the "recent" list, I read the title as a trade center for the new world. I think that (my ability to mis-read it) is a hopeful sign. |
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Starry doughnut, the talking IS the game here isn't it? |
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//Real estate in NYC is too expensive to leave it empty.// |
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Your message really sums up the worst aspects of US priorities at work, and you probably can't even see it. |
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Ever wondered why impoverished Islamic fundamentalists become suicide bombers? Hatred and vengeance in the name of Allah or in the name of the Dollar are still hatred and vengeance. |
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I''ll be checking out ground zero next week, likely trying to avoid being handed flyers for the lap dancing clubs, as the crowds there have been, while in contemplation. |
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gargarax, how Jack Handey of you. |
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All fair points Rods, and that's the trouble - making money is so logical, it's only with a lot of public opinion that the line can be drawn, and probably not even then. |
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No, 'talking is not the game'. Or at least not volume of crap. <deleted> |
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I give up. You're trolling, and I don't want to play anymore. Go away. |
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please leave this alone, notripe - have you no shame? |
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Less than 2 months prior to 9-11, 2001, Larry Silverstein won a hard-fought battle for a 99-year lease on the Twin Towers and two other buildings in the complex, as well as the retail mall. He paid $3.2 billion, the most ever for a parcel of New York City real estate. Some 12 million to 15 million square feet of office space was destroyed when the Twin Towers were attacked, and another 12 million to 15 million feet have been rendered temporarily unusable. Larry is 70 years old and I doubt sincerely he wants to go to his grave without recouping at least a fraction of his investment - The Port Authority of New York has more than $600 million from the - again - recent 99-year lease on the property. Insurance payouts and even Uncle Sam could provide the rest of the down payment on a new World Trade Center project. Perhaps the New Structures should be built where the buildings 'weren't' i.e. space in/on/around/between pre-existing buildings. And where the buildings 'were' - Memorial and passageway grounds. In other words - accentuate the positives while negating the negatives. |
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[notripe] no, you are a shameless troll and I am heartily sick of you. I think you are a complete wind up merchant. |
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Um, what is a troll? (newbie query) |
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Zircon: Wow! You are a newbie, to the internet and possibly to life. A troll is (to put it kindly) a person who makes controversial claims that they may or may not agree with in order to start a pointless argument. An example of a troll would be anyone here who mentions gun control or killing animals, since such subjects inevitably start pointless arguments with no resolution. |
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From the Jargon File: TROLL 1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT. 2. n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll." |
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yep - that's what trolling is but I assure everyone that nothing I have written on this topic is trolling. (on others, perhaps). |
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troll + wind up merchant = loser |
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World Trade Centre in the style of the command buildings in Stingray. As soon as there is a threat, they sink into the ground (to the accompaniment of incongruous bong drum music) |
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So, for example; on this site, where ostensibly the point is to discuss original ideas, is any development into moral argument (see numerous annotates from lots of people above) trolling? Or is that okay as long as it is measured discussion and not an attempt to provoke. |
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Bin liner wants the US out of 'his' world. He had them crash the planes in an attempt to show the Muslim world that the US could easily be beaten. He found out wrong. |
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The US doesn't randomly bomb people. We were ASKED into Kuwait. We didn't just decide one day to blow something up. |
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//StarChaser is rather sensitive about this issue. He lives in a country where little of the sociopolitical discussion with which we are familiar filters through the parochial media, so his views may not tally well with yours// |
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UnaBubba, are you trying to patronize StarChaser? I am American, and I would much rather be Brittish (or mayhap Canadian) due to the horrid history and even current doings of the US. The public's morals suck, everyone is extremely superficial, and dangerously influenced by propoganda. Just because the general population of this country is blindly patriotic does not mean that we (at least some of us) are not intelligent enough to see things from the other side of the fence. |
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I do not agree with notripe's trolling (and I appoligize for my own right here), yet I can see where he is coming from. America is better than a lot of countries in the world, but it is a far (far, far, far, far, far) shot from reaching its claim of being the best. |
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Thanks Neverdie for some perspective but there is no trolling. And UB – I don’t object to Star being righteously indignant with the situation, I object to his shouting down of anything that doesn’t agree with a blinkered world view – indicative of much of his country. |
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Star – look at the facts. Was the US also //asked// into Korea, The Dominican Republic, Vietnam, Grenada and Panama? Was it //asked// to encourage bloodshed in Iran, Guatemala, Brazil, Indonesia, Chile, E. Timor or Somalia? How about Cuba, Laos, Iraq, Angola, Cambodia or Nicaragua? |
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All of these people were US allies at some point - Mobutu, Marcos, Saddam Hussein, Suharto, Ducalier, Noriega, Bin Laden? Does that surprise you? Do you agree with tactics like this? |
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Instead of crapping on about trolling and dissing ethical foreign policy, maybe use this opportunity to consider cause and effect. What begins with a 12 year old Palestinian boy being shot for throwing a stone can end with his brother flying a plane into a building. And what begins with Bono flying the stars and stripes at the Superbowl can end with a population’s support for civilian casualties in far off lands. It can’t be that hard to realise that the US is a far off land to some people out there. |
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Of course the WTC was a disgusting and shameful, cowardly, vicious tragedy and of course there should be a memorial park and monument rather than a financial institution or the corporate, capitalistic pomposity and lasers of U2 for christ’s sake. Of course there should also be measures taken to make sure it never happens again, but controlled measures taken by a civilized nation, not a good excuse for a people to take on the mentality of a giant hypocritical lynch mob. |
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Patriotic pride shouldn’t exclude you from considering the difference between your government’s respect for human lives and your government's respect for American lives. Are we civilized or not? |
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Mile high? pathetic - check link!!! |
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Weapons supplied by the US and Britain in the above conflicts > Nearly all |
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I'm not really trying to ressurect this (very long, contentious and often off-topic) thread, this just seems like the best place to post a question I have for any american bakers; |
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On september the 11th I'm sure I remember hearing that in addition to the airliners being crashed into the buildings and the ground, there was also a car bomb at the US State department in Washington. Now I come to look for details on the 'net I can find barely a mention of it. In one place it is claimed that the car bomb story was released and the retracted, but this confuses me as, how can you be mistaken about something like a car bomb? So my question is...What's the deal with that?; was there one or not?, and if there was; have they found the guys who planted it.? |
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I truly believe that this should be done. I understand it is important to remember that horrible day, but with CNN and everyone blowing it all out of proportion with ceremonies and day-long specials, I think that we are showing weakness. Let's move on, rebuild the WTC bigger and better than ever. |
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[Zircon]: According to a program on BBC2 last night, in the hours shortly following the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon there were a number of rumours flying, one of which was that there was a bomb in the State Department. It turned out to be untrue; it seems this may just have been a product of the confusion and shock. The White House had been evacuated at this point, along with other government buildings and it may have been a case of Chinese Whispers, a misheard question becoming a suspected fact. |
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I suppose it was inevitable that this should make a re-appearance so close to the anniversary. I found myself thinking about it last night when I was watching a film. I don't agree with re-building the WTC. Sticking another giant insurance centre on the site seems somewhat sacriligeous to me.
Anyhow, the film that I was watching was Lord of the Rings and the bit where they pass the Argonath (a pair of gigantic statues for the non-fans amongst you) set me to thinking that not many things have as much of an awe factor as giant statues.
The thought occurred that the site should be used to build a second, even bigger, Statue of Liberty. As a symbol, it stands for all the right things, it would be a fitting monument for the victims of 9/11 and, for those who were thinking along the same lines as StarChaser, it would be a metaphorical finger to the likes of the Taliban and al-Qaida who are well known for their hatred of statues. |
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i think another liberty would detract from the existing one. how about a different one of those figures (im assuming that there are others than just liberty and justice)? or just a garden/memorial, more tasteful. |
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Work has already begun on “WTC #7” a 70-story large footprint structure at the periphery of the twin towers site. I understand that the redefinition of NYC's traditional ‘radio row’ street plan is integral to the reforestation of the site with office space. Sorry, nature lovers, but plans suggest an emotional eclipse of the heart of the big apple without perceptable dimming of the skyline. |
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I agree, the WTC should be re-built bigger and taller, but hows this, build it on huge hydraulic rams so it can effectivley dodge incoming terrorist threats, also of course the buildings could be programmed to give a gentle yet pleasing swaying effect during those charming New York sunsets. |
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Concerning the very first sentence of this idea about how hard its gonna be to find the culprits, how true that statement has turned out to be. So, now on the eve of war in Iraq, how about dedicating whatever ends up being built on the ground zero site, to the thousands of innocent victims who are about to be blown to bits and who have already been blown to bits in this ridiculous 'war on terror'. |
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That's stupid. Instead, dig a WTC sized hole in the ground and build the replacement there. Not as easy a target, plus I think it's an idea worthy of the Half Bakery. |
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This is by far the Jewel (in my humble opinion) of the Halfbakery. I teaches me a lot about the bakers here, and I thought I'd take an opportunity to bring it to the top of the list (again). |
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I have pictures when I was very young, sitting on my dad's shoulders, wearing a hard hat, in front of the towers as they were being built. My father was in the building (he survived) during the attack. He is a Sr. Planning engineer for the PA, and worked in those buildings since the day they opened, through the numerous attacks/fires before the final one. |
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He said he broke down crying when he was running from the buildings and actually saw the jet engine from one of the planes on a corner of one of the streets he was passing. |
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The United States, although unpopular in many of its actions, has for the most part done the right thing. It HAS made many mistakes, but I'm bewildered that [notripes] conclusions (and I respect his thinking very much) have led him to profess a more ethical foreign policy. |
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Every country has been responsible for atrocities or "non-ethical foreign policy". To make it sound like the US is the only guilty party is ludicrous. |
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My wish WOULD HAVE BEEN that they rebuilt them EXACTLY as they were, with one extra floor. On that floor there would've been memorials to each of the survivors, and the families would be allowed to place there what they saw fit. |
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I hear the new design is such that during the exact moments between the first and second planes' attacks on each sept 11, there is no shadow cast on the memorial grounds. |
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spamhog, there is no hope for you. |
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[starchaser], Gandhi would've agreed with [notripe], and Gandhi would've been wrong. |
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[mahatma]//The United States, although unpopular in many of its actions, has for the most part done the right thing. It HAS made many mistakes, but I'm bewildered that [notripes] conclusions (and I respect his thinking very much) have led him to profess a more ethical foreign policy. |
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Every country has been responsible for atrocities or "non-ethical foreign policy". To make it sound like the US is the only guilty party is ludicrous// |
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Yes, this is certainly the case, but surely the point is not "you did it first", "remember the Boer War" etc. but *actually* looking at what is causing, or is perceived to be causing, most of the problems and fixing it ie. The West's unethical foreign policy, sabre rattling, foot-stomping and demonisation of other cultures. |
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Neither finger pointing nor apportioning of blame do anyone any good. |
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On september 11th, i was a mix of many emotions. I was sad, pissed, wanted to go on a rampage killing the people who did it, and just felt really bad inside, as well as anxious on what was to happen. I think that building the mile tall tower would be great. I also would like to say that it was really moving when the UK played the U.S. national anthem at the change of the guards. You folks over there in the UK are truly one of our best allies. Same with you guys up north there in canada. and down under in Australia and New Zeland, and to just about every other country that speaks english! |
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//one of the reasons why the only other buildings that could handle a 767 were built in the past millenium is because it is like the survival of the fitess. The weak buildings die and the strong robust pyramids and other structures live on for ever.// |
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Sort of. Prior to modern engineering, many buildings were massively overbuilt. Since people didn't really know which parts needed to be stronger than others, they simply built everything strong. In some cases, the engineering margins on the most critical sections are not very big, but in most parts of the structure the engineering margins will be pretty huge. |
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Generally, however, overbuilding structures causes a geometric or exponential increase in the amount of material required for a given size. The pyramids are quite large, to be sure, but they weigh many orders of magnitude more than would structures of similar size built today. |
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The problem is that when part of a structure is made stronger, it becomes heavier; other parts of the structure must thus be made stronger (and thus heavier) to compensate, in turn requiring other parts of the structure to be still stronger, etc. Eventually, things reach a point where things become impossible and a structure strong enough to support a given weight would weigh more than that weight. |
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I think we should create nuclear warheads in the shape of the twin tower, and launch them at Afghanistan. |
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Fucking stupid hackermaster! There's several million (mostly innocent) civilians over there! |
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It's too bad that you can't MFD an annotation... Yes, [hackermaster], that's you I'm talking to. |
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The new world trade center: A quiet, meditative park containing a memorial or memorials to the fallen of september 11, particularly those who gave their lives attempting to save others. Because no amount of rebuilding can bring them back, and no amount of revenge. Plant a tree for each victim. |
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Put something in the occupancy papers that nothing can be built there ever again. |
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