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Inspired by the old Ford factory that was the size of a
city,
raw materials would come in one side and cars would
drive
out the other. This would be a factory that would
indirectly make everything.
Although factories are unlimited in the variety of
processes
and materials they use to
make stuff, factories
themselves
are similar in the materials needed to make them. An
auto
body panel press and a surgical scalpel making machine
are
comprised of many of the same materials, just in
different
shapes and sizes so they should be able to be made in
the
same factory.
Then have them made in modules that can be trucked to
their prospective cities and assembled similar to how
modular housing is created.
I believe it's time for civilized countries to stop utilizing
countries that mistreat their workers and to bring
manufacturing home. The path to this is better
technology.
The best way to end slave labor in China for instance is
to
make it financially unfeasible and this might be one
approach.
Thought of this and found the below link being similar,
but this is to just have a modular factory factory that
makes only factories. Baked? Eh, maybe but needs to be
put out there regardless.
Found this being similar, but specifically my idea is to have this make modular factories.
Self-replicating_20facility
[doctorremulac3, May 22 2022]
Self-replicating machine
https://en.wikipedi...replicating_machine
[Voice, May 22 2022]
Something else we have going for us.
https://www.youtube...watch?v=myBVejwZt8Q
[doctorremulac3, May 22 2022]
https://www.newswee...a-505717.html?amp=1
[xenzag, May 22 2022]
Groveling before his Chinese overlords.
https://www.youtube...watch?v=z88zeQ25pjQ
Proof that having big muscles doesn't make you a man. [doctorremulac3, May 23 2022]
5 year cancer survival rate by country.
https://en.wikipedi...ality_of_healthcare
[doctorremulac3, May 24 2022]
Klaus Schwab: one white cat away from being a Bond villain.
https://twitter.com...75478865921?lang=en
"Yu vill own nutzing oont yu vill be HAPPY!! OR ELSE!!" [doctorremulac3, May 24 2022]
Even dresses like his hero.
https://www.empireo...cdiarmid-interview/
Emperor Palpatine and him have the same tailor. [doctorremulac3, May 24 2022]
Humans like ice cream.
https://www.youtube...watch?v=j4IFNKYmLa8
[doctorremulac3, May 25 2022]
Desserted island
https://anopic.us/B...SleRRIaLWMLZ1UO.jpg
[Voice, May 25 2022]
Self-Replicating Machines are the only means through which to spread through the Solar System
https://www.nasa.go...tal_alex_ellery.pdf
[mylodon, May 27 2022]
An Architecture for Self-Replicating Lunar Factories
http://www.niac.usr...t/880Chirikjian.pdf
Figure 7 shows the seriousness of the situation. [mylodon, May 27 2022]
[link]
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Are we assuming that we know in advance what modern
society needs, or does the meta-factory have its own AI
market research function to tell it what first-order factories
to build? |
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Well, we can start with stuff we've used for hundreds
of years. Eating utensils, tools, household items,
toys, clothes, tech products, medicine etc. |
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I'd put the first of these factory factories in Detroit. |
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Tricky. These factories would become subject to
ITAR restrictions, since they could make weapons-
related items. |
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Hard to scale also. Lots of tooling and equipment is
made by small specialty houses, as there's no need
to make 30,000 of the same line presses when 2 will
do. Automation gets super cumbersome when it has
to make lots of varieties of things. What
configuration is optimal to build one type is
completely impossible to build another. Just
changing over a car line from one truck to the next
year's model takes months of preparation and
adaptatiob of the equipment. |
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Robots are already assembled by factories, so that's
out. |
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Halfbaked over and over and over in science fiction, to the extent that I'm sure you're read one or two. [-] |
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Fair enough V, you're probably right but do you have
examples? I don't know of any. |
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And Ray, I'm factoring in a lot of 3D printing for as many
aspects of this as possible, something that's relatively new.
They're 3D printing metal now. |
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Off the top of my head there's the Culture series by Ian Banks, the Matrix machines, and the Berserker series but there are many more. Note that the scale of the self-replication is only a detail of the concept of self-replicating machines which can also produce other things. |
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Well, fair enough, not sure what the technology is in those
science fiction stories but this is something with the advent
of 3D printing advances that could actually be done. |
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I put up a link of "self replicating machines" in science
fiction and they basically just say "self replicating" without
getting specific about how. |
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This is a proposal for a way to streamline manufacturing by
having a series of master facilities that churn out factories
at a hundred to one speed of standard factory construction. |
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// This is a proposal for a way to streamline manufacturing by having a series of master facilities that churn out factories at a hundred to one speed of standard factory construction.// |
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The whole of your proposal is "a factory that self-replicates". It's a very well-worn idea. Its benefits have been explored many times. See also reprap, grey goo, biology, and the linked Wikipedia article. Saying that your idea is a factory and therefore possible doesn't make it less baked or more possible. |
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Well then where are they? Are there any plans to actually
build these or are they only
vague entertainment concepts? |
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Writing about space travel doen't bake or WKTE the invention
of the liquid fueled rocket. |
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//Well then where are they? Are there any plans to actually build these or are they only vague entertainment concepts?// |
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There are several organizations working on self-replicating machines of various scales. There exist artificial cells which can self-replicate. There is RepRap. NASA has explored the concept of self-replicating factories on the Moon. In all cases it's not that no one has come up with the idea but that it's really, really hard to make one. In the case of RepRap if you can design a computer that can run the firmware and also be 3-D printed by a RepRap you'll have solved the biggest obstacle they have. |
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//Writing about space travel doen't bake or WKTE the invention of the liquid fueled rocket.// |
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No, but it half-bakes an idea like "push fuel through a tube and light it on fire so it expands, and use that to push a rocket" |
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How do you push that fuel? I just happened to be reading
about turbopumps. If somebody proposed the turbo pump you
couldn’t say “Somebody’s already proposed pushing fuel
through a tube somehow.” |
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You may be right, this idea may be somewhere, but I’m only
seeing
the words “self replicating” being vaguely thrown
around. |
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What in your idea is more concrete than "a factory that replicates itself"? |
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It's not replicating itself for one thing. It's configured to
create most factories for most products and to make these
factories separated into modular units that can be easily
shipped to the locations where they'll be assembled. |
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Some of the descriptions of self replacating factories are so
vague, they have a picture of a robot arm making
something, okay, but does this make another robot arm
factory right next door? Sure, that's fine, but I think the
idea of self replicating anything's been done to death
without much specificity. |
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Put it this way, go to a bank and ask them fund any of the
science fiction self replicating anythings listed. Tell them
that this is the business plan. They're gonna ask for a few
more details. Like "What will the end product be?". This end
product will be "consumable goods for most industries, the
manufacturing of such feasibly distributed across the
country to available and appropriate sites proximate to the
necessary
resources and workers. And along with modular factory
manufacturing would come standardization minimizing the
constant re-inventing of the wheel. Factories that all make the same thing should be identical following the best agreed upon design." |
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A picture of a robot arm making a robot arm isn't going to
open that checkbook. |
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Not rattling the bun cup or anything, and I hear what you're
saying, but I think this is a valid enough idea to leave it up. |
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Unfortunately China's industrial lead is now |
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unassailable and increasing exponentially. They are |
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already the largest economy in the world and will |
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soon be in command of the world's most powerful |
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military. Being a totalitarian state enables China to |
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function like a type of Borg and with a population |
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of over a billion, they have the critical mass to |
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bully everyone into a form of compliance that suits |
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their agenda, Here's the reality: want to build |
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something that uses steel? Where does it come |
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from? Want to manufacture something to a price? |
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Where will you get it made? China will simply start |
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making your factories Doc and you'll end up buying |
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them from them, or your competitors will, and |
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you'll go under. It's capitalism, Chinese style, and |
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they're raking in the dollars. Even Trump ordered |
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everything he built from China. [link] |
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No, please, PLEASE no more T word. |
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As for China a man can hope technology will out-pace them. |
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Oh god xen, you started so strong then BLAMMO! |
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The reason I've been thinking about stuff like this is
specifically how the US can stand up to China. Problem with
China having robot factories like this is that they still have
to
ship across a massive ocean. I've gotten stuff made there
before for products I've invented and my company has sold
and shipping is a factor in cost. |
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We as a free people build smart enough and there's no
amount of slave labor a fascist tyranny can use that can
match us. |
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And you know what else we have going for us? (link) |
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Hey xenzag, regarding wanting to turn this place back into
the
T word based Hatebakery with that post and when that
didn't
work, putting up that link, I'm serious, I
think you need to see somebody. |
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That's not an insult, that's me being kind to a fellow human
being that I think needs some help. |
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But your post prior to the T word thing made a great point.
You're a very smart and incredibly creative person and one
of the most cherished members of this site, I think I can
speak for everybody in saying that. |
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//As for China a man can hope technology will out-pace them.// |
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China does not recognize intellectual property rights from others.
All your inventions are belong to them. |
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As for self replicating factories, historically... it is societies which have been forced to change which innovate the most. As an example I would compare our trans-Canada railway being turned into a hiking trail as compared to what is happening concerning railways in Japan.
I suspect that your factory-factories will be obsolete before the first one builds the second. |
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Doc - I'm just pointing out that when you start
building your factories to usurp China, you'll be
ordering your steel from guess where? China - just
like Trump did. It's a simple undeniable fact. If you
choose to spin that as hatred, that's your choice.
Read the Newsweek article. It's very informative,
and most likely uncomfortable reading but that's
something to take up with the journalists and not
me. |
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{starts taking down the bottles from behind the bar} |
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Damn, we only just replaced those stools last month. And
as for the pool table ... |
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I'm well-aware of 3D printed metal. I use it for some of my
components. It doesn't have the properties that you need
for
most tooling, high-stress load-bearing, surface heat-
treated, rotating, and structural machine components,
which is precisely what you need to make the business end
of any factory machine. It can't do
decent surface finishes without additional machining, and
even then trying to is going to gum up every stamping die,
mold, bearing
surface, and gear. 3D print me a gear that has
the surface finish and hardness to take a few thousand
MPa's that gears put up with and then we'll talk. |
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China's edge now is that they have a large pool of
manufacturing engineers that the US doesn't. |
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I'm also aware of the limitations of 3D printing
doing it for my company as well which is why I said
"I'm factoring in a lot of 3D printing for as many
aspects of this as possible". There's no problem
with a factory making factories. Factories already
make factories. The modular aspect and the
standardization is what's suggested here. |
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But there's one important aspect of coming up with
new manufacturing processes that's pretty
important. Guts. If our attitude is to lie down and
give up to some fascist regime that uses slave
labor, where workers have zero rights and is a
humanitarian disaster then there really is no point
in even trying. |
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The link shows what I think is a low point of
western civilization. Some well paid American
actor that mentioned a free country and its
people, Taiwan,
and was told by his money hungry managers that
he needed to grovel to the fascist Chinese
government to
apologize for insulting his Chinese overlords for
mentioning this country, all in the name of money. |
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First step in any process is not being this guy. (link) |
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//As for China a man can hope technology
will out-pace them.// |
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//China does not recognize intellectual
property rights from others.
All your inventions are belong to them.// |
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I've always thought China crowing about how well
they steal intellectual property they don't create
themselves is like the kid in class sitting behind
the
smart kid, looking over his shoulder and stealing all
his test answers then bragging about how he got
such a good grade. |
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In competition, be it industrial or even warfare,
you only need to be one step ahead to win, and if
your whole program is based on copying the
innovator, you'll be sending last year's technology
to the competition against the new wave. And
what is that new wave? You'll find out when your
one step behind technology gets wiped out by it.
And it
doesn't have to be that many steps ahead. |
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Case in point, next time you're in England, ask
about the longbow at the Battle Of Agincourt. |
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You'll want to ask in English. |
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//3D print me a gear that has the surface finish and hardness to take a few thousand MPa's that gears put up with and then we'll talk.// |
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Print and then coat using laser scintering in a nitrogen atmosphere full of flying carbon nanoparticles? |
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// China does not recognize intellectual property rights from others.
All your inventions are belong to them.// |
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You're missing the point. If technology improves enough, such as making a self-replicating machine, where the easy ore is will become irrelevant. Where the PEOPLE are will become irrelevant. While it's true that certain elemental metals are much more common in Asia those limitations can be worked around. Look at our move to high k gates in processors: completely different materials. |
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In the end an economy is about giving people what they want. And that can be done with more or less difficulty from any large country's resources. |
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Point is, just because we might not be able to do it
now doesn't mean we can't figure out how to do it if
we put our minds to it. |
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That was a response to your first post V, as to your
second one, absolutely. |
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You'll need a factory to make these factories that make factories. |
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It's factories all the way down. |
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// if your whole program is based on copying the innovator, you'll be sending last year's technology to the competition against the new wave. And what is that new wave? You'll find out when your one step behind technology gets wiped out by it. And it doesn't have to be that many steps ahead.// |
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//You're missing the point. If technology improves enough, such as making a self-replicating machine, where the easy ore is will become irrelevant.// |
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Without patent start-ups can not... start up.
Innovation is stifled without protection from competition. As China flouts intellectual property rights any new innovation needs to compete against the resources and work force of that entire nation. |
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As long as this remains the case the deck is perpetually stacked in their favour and since North America and its politicians are basically all for sale... |
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...we're all fucked unless something drastic changes.
Why bomb what you can just out-compete and purchase?
Even more than that though they think in terms of thousands of years and have perfected the long-con while we were perfecting colonization. |
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So unless your new technology can actually defeat that situation before it can be adopted, then we've all just become Chinese on a really shallow curve which is about to steepen drastically. |
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All legit points, but I also remember when Japan
was cleaning our clock in the manufacturing
department and buying up land, at least here in
California and the general consensus was "We won
the war, but they won the peace.". Actually I think
the inverse of that statement was coming mostly
from them. |
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So what happened to that? There's other factors to
consider, one being birth rates (does that figure
into this? Dunno) Japan's second quest for world
domination lost speed for some reason, maybe
because they realized they were happy right where
they were. My dad had once said we did them a
great favor by beating them in WW2, otherwise
generations of Japanese youth sent to keep the
occupied territories in line would be getting
slaughtered in the mountains and valleys of
California by guys like us. Ask England how fun
America is to occupy. |
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Maybe the CCP will lose interest too? Maybe they
try
to invade Taiwan, get their asses handed to them
like Russia seems to be currently and decide that
having prosperity at home is good enough? I don't
know, but I'll keep fighting for our side, even if
defeat is inevitable, better to die on your feet
than live on your knees. |
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Empires aren't forever, maybe ours is over, but I've
been to Italy after the fall of the Roman empire
and they're still doing pretty good. |
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But let me clarify, you didn't say anything that I
disagree with. Maybe the fact that people are
waking up to the threat of CCP expansionism is a
good start to standing up to these thugs. |
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Given the oligarchs running everything in Russia and
largely the same situation in China these days but
both with questionable birth rates, one wonders if
we're going to stay the exception to the rule or not
anymore. |
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I wonder, after China's population implosion really
starts to work them over, do they start importing
cheap Indians and such to fill the gaps? |
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Taiwan is a postage stamp. They're buying tanks
from us but frankly if they have to use them it's
already over. |
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My Chinese friends and coworkers tell me China will
never import workers of another race. These
are Chinese people telling me this, draw your own
conclusions. |
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And tanks are 100 year old obsolete technology.
I’m thinking the Ukraine might be the last time we
see them. |
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// Ask England how fun America is to occupy.// |
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No no... ask Asia. Same latitude, wide open spaces, billions of... subjects to oversee.
Empires fall because they become complacent. They lose the hunger of youth and or oppression. They need not die and I think the Netherlands is as close as we currently have to how to fix this shit.
An elected monarchy with checks and balances to ensure benevolence. |
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I hear their monarch rides the public transit just like everyone else and they're just like; "Oh him?... well he's just this guy, you know?"
Meanwhile if your mum gets dementia, there's a village for that.
If you're just too fugly to get laid, there's a conjugal visit prescription for that.
You will take a two week tropical vacation every year and if you can't afford it we've bought an island and you will vacation there. |
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Etc. etc. yet when all is said and done they pay less in taxes than we do here in Canada.
I mean, my God, in the US if you are a broken and bloody mess on the side of the road without insurance or cash in your pocket they'll leave you there. |
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WTF are taxes for if not to protect us peons? It's extortion any way you look at it... but we've always paid tithe to the group holding society together.
When those collecting the tithe no longer have the best interests of the society they've been charged with protecting in mind... |
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...then, well that is when an empire collapses. |
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The exception seems to be China. It has remained a dictatorship for So long that I don't know if the Stockholm syndrome can be reversed.
There comes a point where you 'need' to be told what to do... or lose identity. |
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An extremely difficult situation to say the least. |
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Personally, I'm just digging in and hoping that at least some of those in charge can figure out how to throw a wrench of two in the works before the property I've worked a lifetime to gain doesn't suddenly belong to the state. |
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Will the poverty I've worked so long to gain also belong to the state? |
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All things will belong to the state and you will rent them... until you are deemed no longer useful and discarded. |
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All hail the glorious leader.
...or else. |
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Pardon my french but...
...fuck that. |
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I don't know about anywhere else but, but I do know that Canada will be a very hard mouthful to swallow without asphyxiating.
Perhaps other morsels will be deemed more palatable. |
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//in the US if you are a broken and bloody mess on
the side of the road without insurance or cash in
your pocket they'll leave you there.// |
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Not sure how this story still has legs. An ambulance
would pick you up and take you to the emergency
room and there's no exception to that. Having
worked in hospitals (not as a doctor, I just got that
name from the Howard Stern show) I can tell you
the emergency
rooms are filled mostly with poor immigrants,
many of them who don't speak english. We have
medicare, socialized medicine that amounts to 12%
of the government's budget over 3/4 of a trillion a
year, the rest of us are covered by private
healthcare. |
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And before you peg me as a right winger, wait for
it... |
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The system could. and should be improved, and I'm
for taking that money we're spending on civilizing
the world through pointless wars and bringing it
home and increasing social spending, but there's
good and bad social spending. That's a whole new
discussion. |
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For instance, how come socialist programs
work great in some countries and don't in others? |
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In Venezuela you have to eat zoo animals to
survive despite them having among the most oil
reserves of any country in that hemisphere.
Venezuela is 12th in global oil production vs 57th
in oil
production for the Netherlands, but the
Netherlands do amazingly well. Why is that? |
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Never been to Venezuela, don't ever plan to, but
I've been to the Netherlands and yes, they are a
model of how to do things so we're in agreement
on that. But if socialism is the panacea for all our
problems, how come so many socialist countries
are absolute poverty stricken hellholes? Even ones
rich in natural resources? |
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My view is that socialist programs are a tool that
can be used or misused. If we're debating whether
hammers are good or bad I'd say "Are we talking
about driving nails or cleaning teeth? It's how it's
used." |
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//All things will belong to the state and you
will rent them... until you are deemed no longer
useful and discarded. Citizen. |
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All hail the glorious leader.
...or else. |
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Pardon my french but...
...fuck that.// |
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The sales brochure from the World Economic
Forum summit for this new fascism says "After the
great reset, you will own nothing, but you will be
happy." |
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I suggested adding what you said, "Or else." |
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They really do just come out and say a handful of
us elites will own everything. Can't make this shit
up. The bait is some sensible social programs, the
hook is totalitarian fascism. |
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// if socialism is the panacea for all our problems, how come so many socialist countries are absolute poverty stricken hellholes? Even ones rich in natural resources?// |
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Because the checks and balances are not in place to ensure benevolence and any system will become corrupt if steps are not taken to counter it in advance. |
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//They really do just come out and say a handful of us elites will own everything.// |
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Yes, including politicians and this planned overreaction to the, (perhaps intentional) release of Covid is a good indication that it is not only possible but likely.
We got a little taste of what's coming when our Canadian federal government had a bit of a panic attack, turned militant and started seizing bank accounts the instant our boys drove down there for a little chat and we raised ten million dollars in a couple of days to make sure that they were heard. |
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Our government has been bought... or at least enough of them to keep the rest in line with threats to their careers if they don't follow suit. |
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The people did not reelect that ass-hat Trudeau, yet there the little shit is.
That's not democracy, it's a con job. |
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One of the things that never gets discussed is what
I think is this false dichotomy (god I hate that
term, it's what stupid people use to sound smart)
that there's this left wing/right wing thing that
assumes there's always been the equivalent of two
football teams. |
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Using that analogy, you can't say that one team is
right all the time and one is wrong because for one
thing, they're constantly changing. I could say "I'm
a fan of the SF 49ers because they're awesome!
Joe Montana and Jerry Rice and the best
quarterback / wide receiver team in history!" to
which you'd say "They don't play with the team
anymore." |
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Same with the Democrat and Republican
parties here in the US for instance. Different
players than in the past, different values, entirely
different groups. In my opinion the Democrat party
used to support the worker, now they hate the
lowly knuckle dragging unconnected pickup truck
driving hick. Proles that need to know their place.
As far as the Republicans, I've always said, stupid
or evil, take your pick. And let me be clear, I'm not
insulting people who vote for either of those, we're
all just doing our best with the choices we've been
offered. I've voted for stupid AND evil at various
times. |
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That's why I support a topic based discussion, case
by case but that's not really allowed. "Are you a
moron right winger or a totalitarian
communist?" |
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Which is why at parties I use the line "I don't know
which party to support, they're both so darn
awesome!" which is guaranteed to stop the
conversation dead in its tracks. |
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I wouldn't mind the proles nearly as much if they
didn't spend so much time acting like Roseanne Barr
and trolling reality. I would expect an answer much
the same if you ask any other Democrat, or even
moderate Republican lately. |
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//Ha! I'm using that line.// |
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Only way to guarantee all sides will hate us. It's a
beautiful thing. |
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At the risk of being boring, I can highly recommend the
Australian system (order-of- preference voting), where it's
possible to vote against both major parties without wasting
your vote. And a steadily growing number of people are
doing that. |
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It has been pointed out that you could experiment with that
in the US, without actually changing the constitution,
because it's one of those aspects of voting where each
state can do its own thing. |
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<edit>Ooh, I just checked, and I see that Maine is already
doing this. Good for Maine. </edit> |
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I’m all for trying new approaches like that. |
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Is that how we ended up with Susan Collins? |
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Live in the pod. Eat the bugs. Work in the cage. |
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Or eat the ice cream. (linky) |
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Apologies for any nightmares this video might cause. |
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I'm not much for horror, but that's still an awesome video. |
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Note the song in the background. Creepy AF. |
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That brand of ice cream isn't horrible by the way. Low sugar.
low carb. Certainly creative in their advertising. |
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// China's edge now is that they have a large pool of manufacturing engineers that the US doesn't. // |
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If this is true, then why does China barely export any cars? |
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Different focus and better margins elsewhere maybe? Also difficulty with regulations and high risk given the trade war. I imagine it costs a lot to get a new car certified for safety and smog and with China a popular target for tariffs and embargoes all that money in developing for the American market and getting past regulators could disappear at the whim of a politician. |
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They export car parts by the gazillion, and there's
enough of a market there to not bother with the
complexities of whole vehicle exportation. |
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Disease outcomes are a poor measure of healthcare. You need to somehow derive the post-cultural-effects influence of the healthcare system on healthcare outcomes. So that includes the people who never got sick. A system that prevents 50% of cancers from ever getting started leaving the most dangerous needing treatment would look worse than one which cures them all after they start if you only use cancer survival rates. But you have to eliminate cultural factors, like smoking rates, diet, stress, family life, types of work, median hours exercised etc. etc. except where (and here it gets even hairier) those cultural factors are caused by the healthcare system. Maybe you would be better off reading chicken entrails. |
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