h a l f b a k e r yI think, therefore I am thinking.
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I'm just trying to work out the future trend in psychopathy, brought on by me changing my junkmail box emptying habit.
I'm aware that torturing animals does seem to have some connection to future psychopathic behaviour, and previously I just used to delete the junk mail as it came in, now I seem to
be hoarding it for one mass deletion in the Night of the Long Mouse(click).
This then made me wonder about future psychopathy, would it be a valid option to let psychopaths work out their less socially useful habits on computer-life, leading up to VR when it finally gets there, so they can assuage one desire and then go back to normal life and do maybe useful things.
Or alternatively would it be possible to make earlier diagnosis by analysis of their computer use?
Better Angels of our Nature
https://www.google....hl=en&client=safari
Pinker argues that the murder rate is going down and people are getting historically nicer, because, among other reasons, all the bad people are playing video games [JesusHChrist, Apr 23 2013]
The Hare Psychopathy Checklist, Revised (PCL-R)
http://en.wikipedia...ychopathy_Checklist
[CraigD, Apr 24 2013]
Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself....
http://www.eurekale...4/uoc-pan042313.php
...there is no spoon [4whom, Apr 25 2013]
Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?
http://www.nytimes....d-a-psychopath.html
Great NYT article covering research on early diagnosis of psychopathy. [swimswim, Apr 29 2013]
[link]
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// would it be a valid option to let psychopaths work out their less socially useful habits on computer-life, leading up to VR when it finally gets there, so they can assuage one desire and then go back to normal life and do maybe useful things //
To the best of my knowledge, no. I don’t believe there’s credible evidence or sound psychological theory that suggests that antisocial desires can be diminished by being experiences in a safe, controlled setting. |
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The idea that it can, I think, is a reflection of fictional stereotypes about psychopaths, rather than actual science. In fiction, psychopaths are usually depicted as manipulative, deceitful, well self-controlled, cunning people in whom murderous urges gradually build up until satisfied. In real psychology, however, they’re characterized by manipulative behavior, pathological lying, but also less than normal impulse control and long-term planning ability. In fiction, psychopaths are often depicted as unflappable, but in reality, they are prone to frustration and outbursts of violent anger. |
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// alternatively would it be possible to make earlier diagnosis by analysis of their computer use? //
I don’t know of any studies of this, so can only hazard a guess that yes, computer use history might improve the accuracy of test like the PCL-R. Psychopathy correlates strongly with “grandiose sense of self-worth”, so psychopaths might show a greater preference for video games and other computer-using activities that reinforces such feelings and aversion to ones that challenge or criticize it. It also correlates strongly with lack of empathy, which I suspect is manifest in video game and other activities preferences. |
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A drawback to this is that such preferences and computer-use is common in many people who are not psychopaths, possibly so much so that it would be difficult or impossible to correlate it to psychopathy. |
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What is pathological lying? And how can I be sure? |
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It's when Pinocchio tells you his nose will definitely grow... |
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Beilieve it or not, I've given quite a bit of thought to the whether VR or the holo-deck would help people with mental illnesses, and I agree with [CraigD] on how ineffective it would be to expect psycho/sociopaths to lose those tendancies by reinforcing desensitization.
I am however more than a little swayed toward thinking that a stint in the holo-deck sans medication would do wonders for those unfortunate people I've witnessed change over-night and slip into schizophrenia or the overly-manic phaze of bipolar disorder.
When these friends/family have... slipped into mania, they, well they just don't understand why their reality has suddenly changed. |
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To be able to have them step into a virtual reality and eased back to calm, rather than that dismal antisceptic environment they are tossed into until the meds take hold, would do a world of good. |
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As somebody who is profoundly bipolar (the manic aspect
of which can range into psychopathic delerium), I'll tell you
that the last thing you want to do with a mental illness is
indulge it, and going 'off-meds' while doing so would only
make things worse. I sincerely doubt the type of treatment
proposed would be beneficial, and I suspect it could
deepen the trauma. |
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I have to ask [Alterother], and I appologise in advance if it is not a welcome question, but I grew up with my brother and saw the instantaneous change of schizophrenia, the before and unmedicated-afterwards. I helped to raise my step-son and now have to help him through psych-ward stays between his random physical attacks. I was abandoned by a father with ptsd, and raised by a psychopathic step-dad and an anxiety riddled martyr of a mother.
I have no credentials but I might know mental illness on a level that few professionals can match. |
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How could any manufactured virtual reality be worse than that solitary antisceptic pit thay are tossed into now? |
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Of course the real answer is prevention but that is barely on the radar. |
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//I might know mental illness on a level that few professionals can match |
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I think we have all had some experience, personally or indirectly and I'm guessing that, a large proportion of people who do need help never make it to the psych wards. It's very probable non-professionals have a more varied experience than psychiatric professionals. |
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As for me, I'm lucky time and geographically-wise. My mate in East Europe had to spend a month in a psychiatric hospital for what we have in common. |
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I agree with Alterother. You can't simply flip off psychopathy after indulging it for a long while and escape all normal; the brain is not a hard drive or CPU and can't be reformatted over a few hours. |
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//It's very probable non-professionals have a more varied experience than psychiatric professionals.// |
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You certainly do learn the nuances when you live it that's for sure. |
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//You can't simply flip off psychopathy after indulging it for a long while and escape all normal// |
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Not psychopathy no. I agree one hundred percent, but witnessing schizophrenia, (once a definition is established) and the manic phaze of bi-polar it seemed as though the conscious mind of the person I knew had inverted with their subconscious mind, and I am convinced that for a brief window of time after a psychotic break that a re-inversion is possible before the brain begins to re-wire itself from the change.
From my perspective it seemed as though their minds were attempting a synthesis of subconscious and conscious selves but without control because they didn't know it was possible. |
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The poeple who have gone through these changes and the families who care for them know that this new person is not the person they either knew before, or were before. In many ways a death in the family is easier to cope with because there is some form of closure.
The persons' memories, (the ones not re-written), are the same, but the raw emotion and omnipotence of a lifetime of controling the dreamscape awakens with this change and they are unable to understand why they can not control their reality the way the were able to just a short time ago. They eventually come to accept the fact that they are now stuck in this reality and learn to adapt to its limitations but the self they once were has been internalized and is probably having just as shitty a time trying to learn how to control the dreamscape as their inner-selves have out here in reality for the first little while. |
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A sophisticated virtual reality environment allowing the dream to run its course might be just the ticket to a possible re-inversion. |
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Again though, the real answer is in prevention and the only prevention I know of is foreknowledge. |
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// How could any manufactured virtual reality be
worse than that solitary antisceptic pit thay are tossed into
now?
// |
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Tricky question. It might not be much worse on a simple 'is
this good or bad?' scale, but mental illness isn't simple. I
know you know that. |
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The issue that I have here is the suggestion that providing
a 'safe' environment in which delusional fantasies can be
played out without causing anyone harm will not be
constructive. Whether simulated or in real life, indulging
unhealthy compulsions only amplifies the trauma from
which they spring. I'll give you a personal example: last
week I experienced a prolonged manic episode that lasted
for several days. At one point I refused to leave my home
office, convinced that if I set foot out of the room
something terrible would befall a loved one (nobody
specific, I just 'knew' that something bad would happen).
For several hours I paced back and forth or
huddled in the corner, demanding both food and a bucket
to relieve myself in. Jenny refused to comply, knowing
from experience that if she indulged this delusion
it would only compound my dread and irrational
conviction. Eventually she was able to coax me out of the
room, at which point I was immediately able to identify
and reconcile the source of my anxiety (you have to
understand that we've been doing this for years; it's not
always that easy). |
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I had my cousin 'Joe' look at this post. He is a full-blown
schizophrenic who struggles with his illness despite
intensive therapy and well-balanced medication. He agrees
with my assessment that this idea wouldn't help; he said
the very idea of something like it existing would frighten
him due to the temptation it would pose. |
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I seem to remember that the biography of John Nash Jr. describes how he ameliorated some of his issues by working with computers. Then again, a certain kind of systemic thinking (circa 1950s?) may be a 2 dimensional sword. |
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Unfortunately there exists no "Voight-Kampff" test, yet. Although the authors in the link do suggest it is not far in the future. In fact they go so far as to suggest their research may be the beginnings of such a thing. That being as it may, treatment wise i do not think that many psychopaths may benefit from a non-destructive vent. It may apply to some, but certainly not all. Psychopathy is a spectrum, much like the autistic spectrum. You will find functional psychopaths all the way up into Capitol Hill if you look close enough, and in every major boardroom if you don't look close enough.
In essence we are all psychopathic to some degree. Life being a zero sum game, altruism has to be balanced by something. |
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//but mental illness isn't simple. I know you know that.// |
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I do. I do not mean to imply that there is any blanket cure-all by any means.
I only think that a VR re-inversion may possible during that very first break with reality, and even then, if the underlying condition which triggers the psychotic break is not dealt with then any re-inversion will be rejected. |
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Is it pretentious to make the statement that; I might know mental illness on a level that few professionals can match?
It shouldn't.
You assume that since I have been immersed in the illness of others that I can not look at the subject objectively because I am close to them. If you think this you are wrong. You can't care for them and not learn objectivity. |
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Pick any observable topic... oh, let's say horses for example.
Which person ultimately knows horses better; the youth who has spent every day of their lives working with the animals themselves, or the adult who has read all of equestrian history in books for several years and occasionally visits the stalls?
I find the book-learning on this subject, (which has been the bane of my entire existence), to be... quaint.
All of the exotic terms to be learned, and the history of chemicals and experiments that these people have been guinea-pig to... and still no answers.
So much focus on the hows, so little focus on the whys.
To medical health professionals these people are only patients, and the doctors get to meet only these 'new' peolple that their patients have become.
The case studies which I have done have been conducted with an intimate knowledge of, not only this 'new' person, but also the before, during, 'and' afterward person. Every miniscule detail of the changes which have taken place in their minds absorbed on a visceral level that can't be taught. Only lived.
When the Shrink goes home at night he puts aside thoughts of his oh so busy work-day. I spend every day trying my damndest to put thoughts of mental illness from my mind... and then I Go Home TO it.
A whole #@(%ing lifetime of it!
Yet my observations are pretentious?...
please |
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//altruism has to be balanced by something// |
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I feel you, man. As The Good Fairy Jenny says, the doctor
only knows my disease for an hour once every week*, but I
have to live with it every hour of every day. |
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... same as the old thing. |
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// drugs companies are bribing doctors to flog dangerous drugs // |
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No, they're not, because it's not necessary. Doctors will do it naturally.
All they do is try to get doctors to flog their particular flavour. |
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// There be some weird cults out there sanctioned by the powers that
be under the pretext of making our lives better. // |
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