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Most car manufacturers use interchangeable transmissions in different models, and often different manufacturers use the same transmission in their respective products.
My idea is for a replacement transmission that bolts up to an existing vehicle. This would contain an electric motor, a generator,
and a torque converter coupled to a direct drive (no lower gears, the electric motor would start the car from standing. The electric motor would propel the car up to about 25 mph, the ICE would begin charging the battery pack as the car began moving, and would take over driving duties over 25 mph).
I'm pretty sure this is possible using off-the-shelf technology, if not off-the-shelf parts, the problem would be offering it at a price competitive with conventional replacement transmissions.
In practice, when the origninal transmission goes out, I would take my existing car to a transmission shop and ask for the "Hybrid conversion" transmission. The transmission would be installed for the same price as a conventional transmission swap, plus the added cost of control boxes and a dozen or so off-the-shelf deep-cycle marine-type batteries. There is ample room for a battery pack in a car such as my 1983 Ford Crown Vic, under the seats and in the trunk.
After-Market Hybrid Kit
After-Market_20Hybrid_20Kit
My idea for a similar system [discontinuuity, Sep 24 2005]
[link]
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See the link. I brought up a similar idea before, but as several people pointed out, there might be some mechanical or cost problems with the plan. |
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Good points. It only works if the conversion is an exact, bolt-in replacement, and can be manufactured and sold for the same price as a conventional replacement transmission. With an electric motor replacing the functions of the lower gears, a torque converter would also not be necessary; I think it would all fit within the space constraints of a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive vehicle, such as a pickup or van or 2wd SUV or full-size American sedan.
The real challenge is manufacturing it and selling it at an affordable price.
I'm pretty sure this would be a project for a company that already manufactures automobile transmissions. |
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I like this idea better than the "electrocharger" bolt-on; putting the hybrid aftermarket kit directly in the driveline makes a lot more sense than trying to do something useful via the alternator drive. |
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Kudos to both [rasberry] and [whlanteigne], espec. [ras]'s realization that the elec. motor could do away with the torque converter. |
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If someone comes up with a viable way to do this, I'll offer up my old Toyota pickup for experimentation. The chassis is light enough, and it's conveniently rear-drive for relatively roomy installation, and paid for. |
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It was [whlanteigne] who said a torque converter would be unnescessary. I thought it would be best to add electric motors to an existing drivetrain, either after the transmission, or driving the front wheels in a previously rear-drive car. |
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I think if I was going to do a dual-powertrain conversion, I'd go with a front-wheel-drive ICE setup and an electric motor powering the rear wheels. Rear-wheel electric for initial acceleration, ICE front-drive for cruising. You would want a PTO on the front transmission to power the generator, and you'd need to find a place to put the battery pack (under the seats?). Heavier and maybe more work to do, but probably off-the-shelf components could be used. Two advantages to this: you've got 4WD if needed, and a backup motive source if one powertrain fails. |
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Why have the ICE 'take over'? Plenty of
very powerful, compact electric motors
exist these days. Remove the need for
mechanical connection between the
engine and the wheels and you have a
generator that can run at efficient
speeds, located wherever is convenient
in the chassis. |
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Such an arrangement allows for a
Stirling Engine to be the generator,
which is far more efficient and non-
polluting (being an ECE) and can be
produced as a sealed unit. |
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The advantage of a hybrid system is in using each
component at its most efficient operational mode-
thus an electric motor, having maximum torque
available from rest to cruise speed is more efficient
for accelerating. Internal combustion engines are
most efficient within a narrow rpm band, thus most
efficiently used for cruising speed or for running a
generator at a constant speed. The use of the ICE is
assumed to be more efficient at propelling the
vehicle mechanically than running the generator;
less power is lost in direct power transmission. |
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This one is good. My concern however is that I'm not yet convinced that the geometry of the transmission will really allow for a bolt-in replacement in most vehicles. For instance, how big of a motor would really be required for a Crown Vic to get up to cruise speed? I don't have any idea. Even so, I like this one. [+] |
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Personally I'd go for the front-ICE, rear-electric version. Ideally you'd want a newish vehicle with advanced electronic stability/braking control systems which you could tap into and extract useable realtime information to feed to your add-on's controller. You might also have to do some reprogramming of the existing control system, which could be iffy, although I know such aftermarket software mods exist for some vehicles. |
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I have to assume my Crown Vic 302 ci V8 puts out about 150 hp or so. I'm thinking the electric motor should be around 40-60 hp (30-45 KW). I have no idea how large a 120-240V 40 hp DC motor has to be. |
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a 302 V8... that's about 5 litres, putting out 150 bhp??
I mean, the 150bhp explains what about 3 of the
cylinders are doing.... |
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I have my "hillbilly hybrid" all set in my mind: just put in a shorter driveshaft (RWD) and use an EM to fill the gap. |
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I think this could work but only as a 100% bolt in
replacement. Internal battery packs. This will limit gains
due to battery size but will still save a lot of gas, and
would be realistic to expect normal people to have
installed when their clunkers tranny dies. People don't
want fussy wiring or loss of luggage space. They want zero-
compromise Bolton solutions. |
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^just enough batteries for regen then... you could toss out Reverse gear, maybe 1st as well, and just use the electric-motor for both . . . not sure how much room that would give. |
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Only if you have a Traf-Ford … |
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Battery tech has advanced incredibly in the last 15
years; a Tesla Model 3 battery pack weighs just over
1,000 lbs; I think a hybrid, with the existing ICE
providing some motive power, could get by with a
considerably smaller pack; say, half the weight. |
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(I sold the Crown Vic about 13 years ago. Somebody
is still driving it.)
[1984 Ford LTD Crown Victoria 4-door (104.5 kW /
142 PS / 140 hp) (September 1983 for North
America U.S.) specs review.] |
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Has anyone here experimented with gutting a junkyard
chassis and taking it all-electric? |
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In the scenario I imagine, the car is past saving in its
original form because the moving parts are too far gone,
but a new, all-electric power train would make that
irrelevant. The result would look like an old rust-bucket
until it accelerated in eerie silence. |
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This would be (a) a good practical joke and (b) a kind of
recycling. |
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// the car is past saving in its original form because the
moving parts are too far gone,// |
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This all depends on the environment the car has lived in.
Road salt causes corrosion that kills cars in colder
climates, the engines and gearboxes tend to be doing ok
when the body is decayed to powder. In sunnier climbs,
UV turns the paints and plastics to white dust and the
dashboard splits. |
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Where my brother lives, mechanical parts do wear out
because the air is just a fine suspension of sand particles
and the concept of maintenance is yet to be discovered. |
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Thank you, [kdf] and [bs]: those were exactly the sort of clues I
was interested in. |
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And whereabouts does your brother live, [bs]? Your hints
suggest either North Africa or Central Asia. |
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The middle east. The first/last time he took his car for a
service, they removed the air filter. This is fine if a new one
is fitted before reassembly. But that step was omitted. |
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