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Released upstream of the levee breach, these massive
plastic bags filled with sand would have just enough air
in
them to float into place, at which time they'd be
remotely
opened to sink forming an emergency barrier.
They would naturally merge at the points with the
greatest
water flow,
the area of the greatest breach so you
wouldn't
need to steer them, they'd steer themselves.
You could also just have warehouses of these placed
along
the levee with ramps that would drop down and let the
warehouse full of these slide into the water, follow the
flow towards the breach and sink into place.
These valves that would open could also have automatic
settings to open whenever they cross a line where a
levee
used to be and send out the coordinates of where it sank
to the central control unit that would control the sinking
of the other units as necessary. For instance, the first
bag
into the breach would sense that it's on the inside wall of
the levee and sink. It would send the message where it is
so subsequent bags would sink at appropriate positions
to
block the flow.
Because these bags are pliant but waterproof, they
would squeeze
together forming a very robust wall against the flow of
water.
ADDENDUM: Have long sausage shaped versions you tow
into place and sink. They'd still float into place but but
one could be 100 feet long and stored offshore alongside
docks. This might be an easier way to implement this
idea.
ADDENDUM 2: Perhaps a cable placed across the breach
could have elements such as sharp hooks that catch the
balloons and rip them open as they floated into place.
The way we fix levee breaks. Sandbags.
https://youtu.be/WSDaEgkRwhM
[doctorremulac3, Feb 05 2022]
By the way, inspired by this.
Fixing_20breached_2...ees_20using_20B-52s
The great artwork caught my eye. [doctorremulac3, Feb 07 2022]
(?) So just have sandbags in these exact balloons and shoot the with something when they float into place
https://www.faceboo...423070968?fs=e&s=cl
Dart gun, air rifle, automatic cross bow etc. [doctorremulac3, Feb 10 2022]
Would look very much like this.
https://www.stormh2.../parting-the-waters
These are for erosion control but the levee breach system would look similar after floating into place. [doctorremulac3, Dec 19 2022]
Looks like this only ready to drop in place and sink weighted by sand, not water.
https://www.erdc.us...-ubiquitous-gasket/
As described, they find their placement by the flow of water, not being directed by hand. [doctorremulac3, Dec 19 2022]
Could have them self inflate too, not sure how much more they’d cost though.
https://youtu.be/nM8P6TtcrFY
Drop these like bombs from a plane outside the breach, they inflate, float in and pop in the places with the fastest moving water. [doctorremulac3, Dec 19 2022]
[link]
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Same as my idea only with water instead of sand. |
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Mine could be left in place and essentially deploy
automatically when a breach is detected. |
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So within minutes my system blocks the breach. By
the time PLUG is in place the city’s already
flooded. It should be called the “Floating Lousy
Overblown Overall Dumb” system. |
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Plus, my sand stays in place because it’s heavier
than water. It could even serve as a base for the
permanent repair. |
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I’m also a bit concerned that you’re in the breach
repair business and you just said waterproof
sandbags won’t work. (link) Might want to take the
"a" and "bit" out of that one sentence. |
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The current way to get sandbags in place is
ridiculously labor intensive coming as they do
from the land side. Backhoes slogging through
flooded, muddy, soft terrain to fill very small bags
one at a
time. Mine are pre filled and due to their floating,
can be absolutely massive and simple floated into
place being very easy to manipulate and once lined
up as desired opened up and sunk. |
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And the force pushing then into the exact position
needed is the flow of the water itself. Opening the
air valves at the correct moment is the only input
needed. |
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They can even be refilled with air at a later date if
necessary and re-positioned, even by a small boat
with a one man crew. Try that with regular
sandbags. |
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This seems worth a serious study. Wonder what
a1's concerns are. |
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If you have "Thing 2" permanently placed next to "Thing 1" in
case "Thing 1" fails, why not just use "Thing 2" all the time, &
dispense with "Thing 1"?
Maybe something like the Thames Flood Barrier, but passively
actuated by the floodwater. |
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//A sandbag dropped "upstream" won't to be
carried
by the current to where it's needed. It'll sink where
you drop it.// |
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So what you're saying is you didn't even read the
idea. At least you didn't mark it [MFD] "let's all". |
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I'll try to see if I can simplify it, but not sure if
that's possible, I made it pretty clear. |
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Look at the airbags in the PLUG picture. These are
the exact same things except the lower 3rd has
sand in them. They're floating sandbags that float
into place following the flow of water that become
simply sandbags when you let the air out. |
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//I did, and note that you changed the idea and
the title and the overall method several times while I
was drafting my first reply.// |
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No, I changed the title, and put in an addendum
about another possible shape. You make it look like
you caught me doing something wrong which is really
bizarre. |
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You keep asking questions that show that you have
some kind of mental block against reading this. You
could stage them in warehouses that opened up
and rolled them into the water or have them
already floating waiting to be put into place. |
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I clearly specified both of those. You have no idea
if
this is a good or bad idea, you just decided you'd
sound smart saying it was a bad idea, now you're
looking foolish asking questions that were all
clearly
laid out in this. |
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//do you keep them in a warehouse or drydock
until needed?// That question shows that you
clearly didn't read these two parts of my post:
1-You could also just have warehouses of these
placed along the levee with ramps that would drop
down and let the warehouse full of these slide into
the water, follow the flow towards the breach and
sink into place.
2-Have long sausage shaped
versions you tow into place and sink. They'd still
float into place but but one could be 100 feet long
and stored offshore alongside docks. This might be
an easier way to implement this idea. |
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Okay, moving on. You didn't read the idea, now
maybe you have. Or if you did you just didn't
understand it. Either way we're moving on. |
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I'd also add (if it's okay to modify ideas as you
think
of them) these could be kept offshore sunk on the
bottom of the ocean and inflated from compressed
air tanks when needed. That or with boats
pumping air to them. That does defeat the benefit
of having them ready to put into place. |
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I do think I'm going to follow through with this and
contact some emergency agencies after putting a
test video of the concept together perhaps.
Inventing stuff and bringing it to market is
something I've got experience doing. This might
actually save not just lives, entire cities. |
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Hmm. Maybe you could just hit these with machine
guns as they float into place. No complicated
valves,
just watch till they get where you want them and
open up with anything that would pop these
things. |
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Or instead of valves, one big slot that opens up on
the top so it sinks instantly giving you good control
of
where you want it to be placed. |
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This would be really easy to make a scale model
of. Just use balloons with sand in them, build a
dam out of sand with these floating on the
upstream side, knock a hole in the sand and as the
balloons float into the breach pop them so they
sink and block the flow. As the breach flow shape
changes, the direction of the floating sandbags
would change with it going to where they're
needed. |
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I would make absolutely sure they didn't associate
me with you in any way. |
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An aspect of this that I really like is the fact that
after the rubber floatation "balloon" has served its
purpose of floating the sandbag into place, it
continues to be an important element by keeping
the sand from being washed away by the water
flow. The next unit that sinks on top of it will,
because of the rubber being pliant, form fit to the
layer below it and create a waterproof seal,
rubber
against rubber. |
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That's why I think these could simply be left in
place after some minor leaks were patched and
the whole emergency berm is covered with dirt,
paving etc after the storm has passed. |
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Okay, thank you a1, that'll be all. |
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Wonder how it would behave if you opened up the
ends. The center would sink first and the rest of the
unit would sort of "drape" into place. Just having the
ends pop off would be easier too. |
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I can see some kind of concoction which floats down on the surface until you spray it from above and it sinks. Roman concrete was waterproof, but that's simply a pedantic aside. Maybe some process used to solidify (and sink?) oil spills? |
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Well this is just a simple mechanical solution. Bags
of sand with enough air that they float into the
proper position that you pop when in place. And
sandbags are what's used anyway to block a
breach, this is just a much more efficient way to
put them in place. |
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I've got 12 months to patent this since it's now
published, I'll do a provisional patent while I try to
make a bathtub model to see how well this works.
Or if it works at all. |
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Actually this would be something I can do at the
beach. Talk about a fun day at the beach. |
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I think I like the idea of a barge full of these things
just mored to a pier someplace. Levee breaks,
tugboat tows it into the flow, dumps these and
they
float into the breach, pop and sink in place by any
of
the mechanisms, mechanical, remote breach of
the
envelope, etc. |
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Although on second though, they're already
floating, why would you need a barge? Just have a
mess of these big long sausage shaped things under
a pier. There's nothing under piers anyway, use the
storage space. |
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Keep us posted with your experiments, [doctorremulac3]; this is
interesting stuff. Careful with the balloons; you dont want them to
rupture, just "open" where YOU want. Maybe reinforce them (once
inflated) everywhere except your chosen weak points, or perhaps
just "around" the weak points, so the break doesn't propagate. |
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Oh yea, pop wasn't the right word, the sand would
just explode all over the place. |
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Yea, maybe just
coating the whole thing with a thin layer of
something might stop the propagation of the tear. |
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The final thing would be different, just want to do
the test as simply as possible. |
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Wonder if I can just pre punch the holes and cover
them with tape I pull off. |
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Trying to store them for too long I suspect will end
badly in that you want them quite durable to the
weather until you don't. Having them be robust and
then shooting them open makes sense to me. |
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Yea, no doubt there's be some practical challenges
with having these be able to be ready when they're
needed. |
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Inflation system is pipe(s) inside at the bottom. Air will leak,
so intermittent re-inflation will also loosen the sand.
Deflation: permanently mounted valves (ball probably);
handles all linked by cable (manual pull from the shore or
boat or...), or individual servos remotely triggered.
Not sure about the material. Needs to be very stretchy for the
floaty part, but also very strong for the sinky part. |
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Would some kind of nitrogen gas release reaction
make sense? |
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My prototype is going to try having the tape I’ve
put over
holes pulled off at the right moment. Starting with
simple. Air filled,
mechanical trigger mechanism etc. see if the
general idea works. |
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If it gets beyond that I'll look into real world
application issues and solutions. |
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Wonder is letting the sausage shaped ones float in
perpendicular to the levee might be advantageous.
Maybe even feed it in like spaghetti and zig zag it
into place. Have a string of these towed behind a
boat, back them into the breach zig zagging the
boat and pull one activation cable along the top
that sinks them one by one as they float into
place. |
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Interesting idea. The problem I'm picturing is that if you
have a bag with part air/part sand, it will float with all of
the sand below the water surface, so while you can reduce
the depth of the breach and reinforce the ground around
it, you can't actually stop the flow. I guess when you get
to the point where the bags are running aground on top of
the other bags, rather than deflating them, you could just
leave them inflated, creating a log-jam, but I'm guessing
that while inflated they won't pack as well, so you'll still
have a lot of holes. Maybe if you release some but not all
of the air you could get them to seal. You could refill them
with water ala PLUG, but that sounds difficult with a lot of
small bags. |
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In general, I like your idea of smaller bags rather than the
large sausage in addendum 1. Trying to maneuver that in
place in front of a levee breach sounds dangerous, but I
guess if you block most of the breach with small bags, and
bring in a large sausage to seal it, it is less dangerous
because the sausage will be floating too deep to go over
the sandbags. I still don't picture that working too well
since the bags under the surface are probably not lined up
really straight. |
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Another thought: have a sandbag on top of an inflatable
raft that is significantly wider than the sandbag. Then it
can float into a position with a depth less than the height
of the bag. Unfortunately then I don't see how you can
pack them close enough. |
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Hmm, for that final row... I'm now thinking of a 6 ft
diameter inflated sphere with a small sandbag (the type
that one person can heave around) suspended in the
middle. this sphere hits the partially repaired levee, water
pressure behind it will start to roll it up and over, then
BANG. The sphere is popped (by some mechanism TBD)
and the bag falls in the lowest spot in the levee where the
sphere was about to go over... |
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My suspicion is that if you have a fairly serious levee breach
then the small bags are just going to get pushed through it to
the other side as the water flow rate is usually pretty
substantial at the breach location. Bigger might be better to
encourage the logjam effect. |
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Good points guys, maybe bigger bags at first then
smaller
to fill the holes. |
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Or some kind of drogue shoot affair that catches the
water and pulls the later bags in place. |
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Wonder of a lighter than water liquid that hardens
rather than air might be something? Maybe three
layers, sand, that liquid and air, the air being let out. |
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Perhaps a biosafe oils of various densities... |
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Eh, getting away from the simplicity here. |
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I do like the idea of a water catching scoop on the top that
continues to pull the bag into place including pulling it on
top of previous bags though. Be an easy thing to add to the
bag design, just a little extra material. Maybe I'll generate
a drawing to post. |
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Foam that expands in water. Put it in the bags and puncture the bags as you release them. |
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Sounds pretty light, you've got many tons of water to hold
back. |
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Plus I'm trying to keep it cheap. |
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Next weekend off I'm going to the beach with balloons and
sand. I'm quite sure I'll look absolutely insane trying this out. |
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Just did a cheapo mockup of how this might work. |
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1- First floating sandbags through the breach are deflated.
Sandbag in place at bottom of breach. |
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2- Subsequent units hit previous sandbag and inflated
portion is pushed by water on top of previous sandbags,
basically rolling over them. Once in place they too are
deflated. (so having additional devices to pull the unit over
previous units, drag chutes or whatever probably not
needed. |
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So once no more units will fit in, I'm hoping the flow of
water will be blocked enough to make the system worth
while. |
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Okay, beyond the speculation point here, just need to see if
the basic concept works in reality. |
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What about something like a net, with weights on the bottom
and floaties on the top? Make it an early deploy somehow.
Then consecutive bags get caught in it. |
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My first thought was a cable across the top of the breach
that
catches the balloons and the pressure of the water pushes
the
valves open and sinks it, that or the hooks tearing them
open,
but that sinks everything at the same
place and I'd want the block to be wider. |
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Could move the cable I guess, but the less work the better. |
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I'm also thinking storing these in an uninflated state on a
barge with an air pump would be the way to do this. Tow it
to the breach and start blowing these up, tossing these over
and dropping them one at a time. Slower but might be
more practical than storing them inflated as most of the
volume of these would be air. |
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Again, overthinking down the line of something that hasn't
even passed the basic concept application test yet. |
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//Couldn't just heave the sandbags overboard where you need them?// |
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How do you park your barge right next to what's basically a waterfall? |
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Yes, fire sandbags out of air cannons. Tell you what, you suggest that idea I'll suggest mine. Rather than just driving a truck full of sandbags up to the breach (as they do now) and placing them exactly where you want them, have a massive air cannon parked some distance away from the breach (for some reason) blast these sandbags that are so well renforced, by chainmail presumably, so they won't explode on impact. Then load up the firing mechanism with compressed air (if you wanted to see sandbags fly for some reason a trebuchet would be the way, not a cannon) and start blasting amazingly expensive reinforced impact resistant sandbags where they will land unpredictably making an absolute mess until the adults arrive with a working mechanism. AFTER they clean up the disaster of the ballistic sandbag debacle. |
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Other than that it's a great idea. |
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Dude, we're having good nature fun. Please. Chill indeed. |
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A1 do you want me to "chill"? |
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If a1 isn't having fun I'll just smile and say "thank you" to all future posts. |
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Totally your call buddy. Let me know how to proceed. |
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Dhunno, twenty yards maybe? But far out enough that you
dn't get sucked in, that's why I'm likeing the sausage shape
as one approach, just motor across the flow towing these
and let it go. Going fast enough you'll traverse the
temporary river without getting sucked in, but the trailing
float/sandbag you release would. |
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My first idea of having a bunch of these just parked under a
pier is top of my list of how this might be practicable. |
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But I'm beyond my ability to speculate on this. This needs
to be
tried out in the real world. |
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And thank you for your notation a1. (manly hug, friendly
slap on the back) |
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Hmm. Wonder if little remote control tug boats might be
something. Get about 20 of them... |
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Well, I do want to keep this simple and easier and quicker
than the present method. If I start adding to many fixes to
make it work it's back to the drawing board. |
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But the core principal needs to be tested in real life. Does
the
water flow direct the water blocking units effectively? I'd
think so but thinking doesn't necessarily make it so. |
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Maybe I'll put up video for everybody to marvel or laugh at
as the
case may be. |
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Trying to simplify as I go along, now thinking of having the
balloon portion be re-usable, attached to trailing sandbags
with a breakway adjusted to drop the sandbag as the right
moment, when it gets caught on the breach and the water
in now pushing against the balloon that's stuck. It would
have to be properly "tuned" but it would be low tech,
simple and possibly less failure prone as a result. |
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Back to my sausage shaped idea, having the sandbags be
long tubes, suspended by these breakaway floats coming in
at an angle so catch the trailing edge and they lay over
each other and fit together. |
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I'm absolutely sure that makes no sense whatsoever, maybe
I'll make a
drawing. |
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Nope. PLUG is air and water, this is a sandbag. |
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The floating part is used only to put the sandbags in place,
and the placement is automatic, following as it does the
flow
of the water to the areas of greatest flow where the most
blockage is needed at which time it deflates or detaches.
The flow directing the placement is dynamic and changes
as the breach profile gets progressively blocked. Bigger
hole, more water flow, more sandbags to that spot. |
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Maby I forgot to mention that. |
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Let's save some time, that's the second time you showed,
I'll put it nicely, some confusion about this. Are you clear on
what it is now? |
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Now if you're simply trolling me, good one. Got me. |
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Just woke up with the solution, guess I dreamed it.
A cable stretched across the breach with rotating
knives. The float hits the knives to get cut open
and as it sinks the knives rotate downwards to let
the unit fall without catching in the blades. Think of those
ninja throwing stars all threaded on a cable like a necklace.
A very dangerous necklace. |
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They could also be connected forming a sheet like
arrangement, picture a raft, that comes in and
sinks in layers. |
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For my New Year's project I'll be experimenting with different shapes between the shown standard tube shaped and more sheet like even actively folding up to create more of a dam shape once they hit the breach. Also more string shaped, bead shaped, U shaped, V shaped etc etc. Also have one where it looks like a snake with a massive head, heaviest part sinks upstream, the tail follows the flow and sinks downstream in layers making a form fitting blockage. |
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Hard to explain, I'll post pictures. |
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I also think I solved the problem of how to pop them in place properly. Have them pop open automatically once they hit land. Just have a top piece used to keep the air in that pops off when the pressure exceeds a certain amount by the impact. That's in keeping with the main feature of these, they put themselves in place. |
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Another thought: might need anchor spikes/hooks of some sort on the bags, so they stay put (unless you're keeping them attached to the deployment cable?). |
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They're just sand but the deflated plastic bags they're in should stop any erosion caused by the flowing water so they should stay in place. |
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Theoretically anyway. But definitely need to try this out, I'm at the end of my speculative abilities on this one. Might make a prototype that's good for nothing but a funny Youtube video. |
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Just realized these need to be flatter and pillow shaped to have a low profile so the wind won’t catch these and possibly blow them away from the levee breach you’re targeting. Might even have more friction causing surfaces underneath to catch the water flow better. Extrusions made during the molding process of the bags for instance or just elements attached to the bottom. |
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