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People who are concerned with ecology should take a minimalist
and
coservationalist approach to electricity and magnetism, as well as
to
oil vegetation and other life. Why arey they so life-centrist?
Lifists.
Lifal discrimination. From 20 years in the future we are going to
look back
on the last 150 years' military-industrial-complex-
violation
of the the e-m spectrum in the same way we now speculate about
violence between pre-historic humans and their now-extinct close
relatives. Electro green people would try to preserve and leave
relatively undisturbed the "natural" state of the e-m spectrum, so
that we can explore increasingly more subtle uses of the earth's
already complex transponders, amplifiers and receivers in the
form
of vegetable and animal organization -- as a way toward equality
for
all kinds of entities, organizational or disorganizational.
50-60 Hz
http://www.ncbi.nlm....gov/pubmed/2677573
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 21 2012]
No, 50-60 doesn't hurt.
http://www.ncbi.nlm...gov/pubmed/16988988
[MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 21 2012]
listen to the king
http://www.youtube....watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0
[JesusHChrist, Oct 22 2012]
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I suspect part of the reason we don't do this is: |
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(a) As far as we know, there's nothing interesting
in the natural EM spectrum of the earth. |
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(b) In general, we don't suppress or endanger the
natural EM spectrum. In fact, we're more afraid of
it than it is of us. |
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(c) The EM spectrum has no panda*. |
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(d) However much we interfere with the natural
EM spectrum, it all gets better once we turn the
switch off, more or less at the speed of light. |
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*I would like this phrase to be engraved on my
tombstone if I die, simply to bewilder people. |
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//Well there seems to be proof enough that if you
close to a powerline you have increased risk of
getting cancer.// |
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Actually the opposite. There is overwhelming
proof that powerlines have no perceptible effect
on human health (other than by supplying
hospitals, water purification plants and the like).
People who live sufficiently far from power lines
tend to die from waterborne parasites,
malnutrition etc before they get cancer, thereby
skewing the stats a little. |
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Likewise, the myths that mobile phones will (a)
cause petrol pumps to explode and (b) cause
planes to drop from the sky have both been
debunked. |
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Broadly speaking, gamma rays (±10^20Hz) are very
bad and will fuck you up. X-rays (±10^18Hz) are
somewhat bad and may fuck you up. UV (±10^16
Hz) are a little naughty and sometimes cause skin
cancer. Microwaves (±10^10Hz) are useful for
cooking and can likewise cook your innards. UHF
(±10^9Hz) transmits television and therefore fucks
with your brain. |
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You'll see that there's a trend here. Power
transmission (±10^2 Hz)... |
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Re. link: the only problem with it is that it's
bollocks. A certain amount science is bollocks,
you
know. It really is. |
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If needs be, I can probably find several papers
"demonstrating" that cats cause (or prevent -
jury's
out) cancer of the scrotum; that copper water
pipes
cause epilepsy; or that hydrogen nuclei can be
fused
by the application of voltage to a palladium
electrode. |
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Publications from the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health are bollocks? |
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Well then I just don't know what to trust in anymore. |
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Can you find papers demonstrating no sensitivity of the pineal gland to electro magnetic frequencies? |
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//Publications from the US National Library of
Medicine National Institutes of Health are
bollocks? // |
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Hint: research is done in labs, not libraries. |
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However, that is a red herring of a different
kidney. The research is from Pacific Northwest
Laboratory, not the NIH (which is the outfit that
provides the citation database). By the same
token, Shakespeare was not written by
Basingstoke Central Library, despite the fact they
have copies of all his works. |
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The NIH itself (like most other governmental
health outfits) has surveyed the many, many
reports of experiments on this topic, and has
concluded that there's no credible evidence for a
link between power transmission and, well,
anything (except for power, obviously). |
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Perhaps there's a conspiracy here, hmmm? That
would make sense, since any scientist who could
prove a link would keep quiet about to prevent
the Nobel committee from finding out; you know
what they're like. And the scientists are all in the
pay of companies who make pylons anyway - it's
well-known. |
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However, about 1 in 20 studies show a significant
correlation at a confidence of >=95%. Indeed,
about 1 in 100 studies show correlation at a
confidence of >=99%. Amazing, when you think
about it, so please do. |
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Oh, and since you asked for a paper showing no
sensitivity of the pineal gland to EMFs, I picked
one at random for you. |
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That link shows no adverse effects in a particular area not negative sensitivity of the pineal gland to emf... |
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"Although the mineral magnetite (Fe3O4) is precipitated biochemically by bacteria, protists, and a variety of animals, it has not been documented previously in human tissue. Using an ultrasensitive superconducting magnetometer in a clean-lab environment, we have detected the presence of ferromagnetic material in a variety of tissues from the human brain. Magnetic particle extracts from solubilized brain tissues examined with high-resolution transmission electron microscopy, electron diffraction, and elemental analyses identify minerals in the magnetite-maghemite family, with many of the crystal morphologies and structures resembling strongly those precipitated by magnetotactic bacteria and fish. These magnetic and high-resolution transmission electron microscopy measurements imply the presence of a minimum of 5 million single-domain crystals per gram for most tissues in the brain and greater than 100 million crystals per gram for pia and dura. Magnetic property data indicate the crystals are in clumps of between 50 and 100 particles. Biogenic magnetite in the human brain may account for high-field saturation effects observed in the T1 and T2 values of magnetic resonance imaging and, perhaps, for a variety of biological effects of low-frequency magnetic fields." |
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Discuss? Wow. For how long? |
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The trick with science is to realize that a lot of
people do it, and they don't always all get the
same answer; and that you need to apply some
level of discrimination and judgement in
interpreting it; especially when people are looking
for very very small effects in a poorly-controlled
situation. |
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Yes, there's a variety of things in the human body
that can be affected by magnetic fields. If you
can pay someone to build you a big enough
magnet, you can even levitate yourself in such a
field. |
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It's also true that a lot of biological molecules
contain hydrogen, which is what powers the sun.
Hmmm - spooky, huh? |
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The body also contains proteins, as do
(suspiciously enough) bacteria. The plot thickens. |
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It's also true that putting your hand in a
microwave with the door lock disabled will cook
your hand, by pure electromagnetism. So, there
you have an MUCH stronger association between
electromagnetic fields and adverse effects. Why
bother with something as vague as single-domain
magnetite in tissues? |
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If you want to extrapolate, it's a smaller step from
microwaves to 60Hz than it is from single-domain
magnetite to cancer. |
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Listen, I am very happy if you believe that power
lines cause cancer. I dislike power lines too,
mainly because they interfere with the badger
trebuchet tests. I'm also very happy if you want
to sell your house at a discount because it's near
power lines. There is a good living to be made by
the rational out of irrationality. |
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Personally, I think there's more mileage in the
idea that AM radio transmitters cause cancer. The
radiated power spreads further, and the
wavelengths are shorter. Also, practically
EVERYONE who was alive at the time of the first
AM broadcasts is now dead, which is a pretty
strong correlation. The effects clearly propagate
over vast distances too. If any of my fellow
Halfbakers live within a hundred mile radius of a
radio station, I am prepared to offer them a
generous 70% of the purchase price of their
property; take the offer now, before the rumours
spread and prices plummet further. |
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Pay no heed to those august bodies such as the
WHO when they say there's no evidence for any
risk - what would they know? The only definite
answers must come from selective reading and
good old-fashioned folk wisdom. |
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That's quite the series of stretches away from pineal emf sensitivity there Hoss. |
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Pay no attention to those men behind the curtain.
Trust them to publish nothing but truths, they have nothing but our best interests at heart... |
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That's actually my point, [2fries]. You _shouldn't_
blindly trust every scientific paper, even if it
confirms the view that you yourself have long held
as a result of a deep understanding of the subject. |
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If there isn't a complete consensus,I suggest that
you just go with the minority view, as long as it
aligns with your prejudice. You can't go far wrong
with that. And my offer of 70% stands. |
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The trick is not to be hoodwinked, but to learn to
wink your own hood. |
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I have no scientific prejudice. I distrust everything equally. |
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It is exactly the lack of research and definitive findings in this area that I find so telling.
Reading between the lines has kinda always 'been' my hood Hoss. |
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<wink- wink>
<nudge -nudge>
<knowwhatImean?- knowwhatImean?> |
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//It is exactly the lack of research and definitive
findings in this area that I find so telling.// |
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Strange. I find something like 15-20,000 papers
dealing with electromagnetism and health. |
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Still, I'm sure that "abundant research, yet lack of
definitive findings" is really just as suspicious as
"lack of research and definitive findings". |
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Remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't
mean there's no conspiracy. |
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Actually, [2fries] let me run another idea past you.
I have this theory that LCD monitors cause
cataracts. I have no idea why or how they might
do it*, BUT (and here's the kicker), there seems to
have been very little research into this, and none
of those few studies seem to have found anything
significant. |
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Now, I don't know about you, but I've noticed that
people who didn't have cataracts as children are
now, in their 60s and 70s, beginning to develop
cataracts. What does this correlate with? You got
it - it correlates with the increase in LCD
monitors. |
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I'm sure you're aware that LCD monitors are big
business, making big bucks for multinationals. It's
pretty clear where their interests lie. That's all
I'm saying. |
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*actually, there may be a mechanism. The eye
contains colour receptors located roughly in the
red, green and blue areas of the spectrum. And
guess what colours the pixels of an LCD are? You
got it. You'll also note that LCDs don't have black
pixels, despite the fact that darkness is almost
certainly safe for human eyes. This isn't just
coincidence - it's a hidden agenda. |
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//There's quite a lot of research on
magnetoception.// And pretty much all of it, in
the case of humans, is negative. Shame, because
it would be nice. Similarly, many animals can
detect the polarization of sunlight, which is also
good for navigation even on overcast days. We
really ought to be able to do it ourselves. |
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As regards the effects of 50-60Hz EM on people, it
strikes me that one of the problems is that the
wavelength (around 10,000 kilometres) is just a bit
longer than the average human. This means (and I
may be on shaky ice without a horse to water
under the bridge here) that field gradients across
a human body (let alone across a pineal gland) will
be less than huge. |
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I suspect that, if the fields induced by 60Hz power
lines were remotely hazardous, then walking
across a nylon carpet would be immediately fatal.
Perhaps it is - I only use wool or bare parquet
myself. It would also be possible to commit
suicide by means of a AAA cell. |
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Still, this ought to be looked into, and I suggest
that a few more tens of millions of Americas finest
dollars would be far better spent on this research
than on, say, anything else. After all, that would
be a fraction of the cost spent on faking those
moon landings. |
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After after all, if it were not for the maverick
voices in
the wilderness, we would still be unaware of the
fatal effects of travelling over 30mph. |
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//something like 15-20,000 papers dealing with electromagnetism and health// |
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Very good. Now narrow that search to electromagnetism and the pineal gland. |
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//just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there's no conspiracy.// |
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That's a very good point... though I've made no conspiracy references. |
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//The eye contains colour receptors located roughly in the red, green and blue areas of the spectrum.// |
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So... does melanopsin fall outside that there spectrum then?
Research on visual abnormalities caused by emf using blind studies of such things as form constants or migraine aura is non-existent... y'know unless you coun't the strictly heresay proof of being able to use trans-cranial magnetic stimulation to head off a migraine at the first sign of the preceeding visual aura. |
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You are right. Research is done in labratories not libraries, but... without someone connecting all those dots then that research is nothing but useless piles of data. |
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That's all I'm saying... and you know I'm right. |
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//Now narrow that search to electromagnetism
and the pineal gland. // |
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My god!!!!! You're right!!!!!! There are probably
only a few tens or hundreds of papers on that
topic. |
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But, [2 fries], it gets worse. I looked for papers
dealing with the effects of electromagnetic
radiation on the adrenal glands and there are
HARDLY ANY!!!1! And the effects on the kidneys
of border collies - jeeezus, you don't want to
know. |
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[2 fries], it's time that your mighty nation threw
its weight behind this to fill these much-needed
gaps in the scientific literature. If every new PhD
student spent only a few decades and few million
dollars on looking into the effects of power lines
on all possible organs, tissues and materials, then
you guys would have made significant inroads into
the problem within a couple of generations. |
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It's clear that only America is in a position to
sacrifice a century of worthwhile progress to this
cause. The resources of Europe, Asia and the rest
of the world are only capable of dabbling in such
frivolities as better cancer therapies, antiviral
agents, controlled fusion reactors and other such
fripperies. |
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Go, go now [2 fries] and lead your nation to the
greatness it deserves. |
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I get to go from conspiracy theorist to mighty national greatness in a single anno? That's gotta be some kind of new land/speed record. Maybe you should say my name a few more times. It makes me feel all gushy inside. |
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What was it you said about melanopsin again?
Form constants?
Migraine aura? |
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Spare me your derision. I got over it sometime during junior high school, and it's honestly a real shame to see it carry over into middle-aged-hood. |
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Same fucking kids.
Bigger playground is all. |
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Melanopsin - didn't follow the question, but yes. |
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Trans-cranial stimulation - yes, of course. But it's
not often done by standing someone near a power
line, as far as I know. |
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By the same token, you can kill people with
bullets, yet airborne dust (which is the same apart
from the particle size and composition, and
velocity) just doesn't break the skin. |
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There are some things that people (I mean lots of
people) want to believe in, and the best that
science can do is to investigate the more nearly
plausible of them. In the case of EMF from power
lines, a very large number of people have
investigated them for possible health effects and,
in the great majority of cases, have not found
anything significant or reproducible. |
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So, I'm not sure what more you expect science to
do, given that money could be spent investigating
the effects of a near-infinite number of things on
a near-infinite number of other things. Most of
the science didn't give the answer you want, but
you're not obliged to accept the answer. |
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//an untested hypothesis or an area science has
barely looked into shouldn't be dismissed as 'not
existing', 'unproven' etc. The absence of research
doesn't say anything either way. // |
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But the hypothesis (the broader one of whether
there is detectable harm associated with power
line EMR; and also more specific ones of whether
various cells and tissues can respond to such a
field) _has_ been extensively tested. The great
majority of the results say that there is no
detectable harm or effect at the limits of the
sample size, even when using artificially large
fields. So, there's not an absence of evidence. |
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Sure, there will not be experiments on every
possible exposure of every possible tissue. But
you only a country with as much cash to spare as
the USA would want to waste money on
performing every such test. |
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At the end of the day, the important question is:
does this make people sick? And the answer, as
far as we can tell, seems to be "no". If people
don't like the answer and want more research,
that's fine, it'll keep scientists in employment. |
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<Deltas and Epsilons>
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
<my head> |
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thinly disguised rant. [+] |
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//a career that balances your chi's with the
traditional practice of leaving security holes in
software.// |
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Also, if we've got delta, epsilon and chi, where are
zeta through phi? |
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I will bear in mind your potentially sage advice, the
sagacity of which I'll be able to gauge as soon as I
understand it. "[MB-san]" takes me back a while. |
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Well, chemistry for the gooderment of mankind is
OK with me. Have you worked on anything I've
inhaled? |
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//the pineal gland IS responsive to
electromagnetic frequencies.// |
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Only in the sense that it receives neural inputs
from the eyes. In that sense, my lips are also
responsive to electromagnetic frequencies (I
smile more when it's sunny). |
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The pineal is funny. It is probably the subject of
more folklore and flummery per gram than any
other bodily organ. |
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I disagree. The female reproductive system undoubtedly
holds that distinction. |
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//The female reproductive system undoubtedly
holds that distinction.// |
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I did say "per gram". The female reproductive
system is quite massive, comprising a vagina, cervix,
uterus, at least one each of ovary and fallopian
tube, shoes and additional accessories including a
man. |
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Ah yes, I failed to account for the subqualification in your
statement. I think we can safely agree, however, that both
have been the source of much bafflement and
consternation since the dawn of medical science. |
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