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Inspired by the title of a recent Intelligence Squared U.S. debate, 'The US has no dog in the fight in Syria'. At one point in the debate, Graham Allison asks the audience 'If you walk around a corner and come upon two dogs fighting, what do you do?'. He left the question unanswered, as an exercise for
the
audience. Well, in literal terms, the best way to safely separate two fighting dogs is to douse them with a bucket of water.
My thought is this: Fly Evergreen 747 Supertankers over hotspots in Syria and douse the combatants with a 24,000-gallon torrent of water. Repeatedly. Until they pack up and leave the area or get flooded out.
[link]
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There's gotta be something better to dump on them
than water. Like rocks, or what else do they have a lot
of out there, sand or camels, or camel dung. Maybe the
supertanker could stop in afghanistan and pickup 24000
gallons of taliban fighters and drop them from 10000
feet.
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But to answer the dogs question, I'd probably not stick
around and let the dogs fight it out. They're dogs
afterall. What's the purpose of the question, does
asking it imply that Obamas solution would be to strike
the dogss nerve gas facilities with guided missiles from a
100 000 tonne floating airport that can do 60 clicks in
water. Hey, and what happens if somthing 100 000
tonnes moving 60km*hr bumps into something? Does the
other thing explode? |
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It's a desert nation. They're used to sandstorms and probably wouldn't be deterred by that... camels, of course, would have PETA up your ass. History suggests that a planefull of Taliban fighters isn't statistically likely to reach its destination... camel dung isn't a bad suggestion but might stick in the retardant tanks and fail to drop all at once. Water in large quantities isn't something they're used to dealing with. |
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What about dropping thousands of fighting dogs. They're
supposedly adverse to dogs, and consider it an insult.
Maybe the commentator you mentioned was insulting both
assad and his al quaida opponents. |
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Since it is a Muslim-influenced nation, the most
abhorrent thing to drop on them is pigs. We should
build smallish hang-gliders, attach a pig to each one,
and release them by the plane-load, letting them fly
safely down. The shock of landing should be sensed
by a small electronic circuit that releases the harness
holding the pig to the hang glider, so it becomes free
to roam, causing the human combatants to think of
something else instead of fighting each other. |
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</in bad taste> You guys are brilliant. So the best plan would be to get both sides in the conflict so pissed with us that they stop fighting each other and ally to find some way to strike back against us and our allies. I say drop massive amounts of gay porn featuring the prophet who shall remain nameless. </in bad taste> |
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Not really applicable, but in this case we're just trying to smack one of the dogs with a rolled up newspaper because it urinated on the carpet. |
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My goal is to simply make them stop fighting
in as nonviolent, inoffensive a manner as
possible. If we dropped pigs or pig
byproducts on them, we might turn the
whole Muslim world against us. I'm not entirely convinced, at this
time, that we should back either side of the conflict, but the
civilians need to be protected. |
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Well, since the hypothetical scenario offered in the
title and the idea text is likely meant as an insult
towards muslims because 'dog' is considered a grave
insult, we should all use the opportunity to gravely
insult in kind. I'm personally tired of hearing all of the
idiotic news coming out of that region, from the Arab
Spring to zerg rushes on diplomatic facillities because of
low budget films, to bin laden in pakistan, everything
makes me cringe. Who cares if they're offended by pigs
and dogs, it's time to rain the poo of those animals from
the sky upon them. |
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I think the biggest problem with this idea is practical.
In order to be effective, the plane would have to be
flying pretty low—low enough to be vulnerable to SAMs,
which a 747 is not exactly well-equipped to dodge.
Drop the water from high enough up
that you're out of the range of even a MANPADS, and
you're probably just going to create little more than a
pleasant drizzle. |
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DIRCM, chaff/flare dispensers, and maybe a modified Phalanx
CIWS-like system? |
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Now, see, you're just fighting fire with firepower, and
that's pretty much what this idea is proposing an
alternative to.
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The best one yet is bacon fat, but why kill the pig? I say
anyone who wants to fight gets dowsed with millions of
gallons of pig shit. It's a renewable resource that is present
in abundance and costs very little. We could fit C5 Galaxies
with tanks and sprayers and lay a 24/7 deluge of porcine
fecal matter across huge swaths of contested territory,
discouraging a nasty civil war and creating thousands of
acres of fertile farmland. Modified Apaches with
firefighting nozzles in place of their autocannons will root
out dug-in snipers and loiter in hot spots, and the mopping
up will be done by...well, people with mops. |
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hmm... a rather specific variation of rendering land unusable, that: Porking the Earth. |
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// you're probably just going to create little more than a pleasant drizzle. //
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Well, being from the Pacific Northwest, I could agree that the drizzle would be pleasant, but maybe it would be bad eough to give all those accustomed to sunshine a case of SAD, or at least drive them indoors since they don't own any Gore-Tex.
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Of course there's the possibiliy that it would evaporate entirely before it hit the ground, form clouds, then rain down on some other nearby country. |
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That could precipitate war. |
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//an insult towards muslims because 'dog' is considered a grave insult
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Arabic "ibn kalb" ( lit. child born from a dog) ie son of a bitch, if addressing a male.
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Korean "kay say gi" ( lit. child born from a dog) ie son of a bitch, if addressing a male.
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English "son of a bitch" ( lit. child born from a dog) ie son of a bitch, if addressing a male.
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Seems a fairly universal insult?
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NB "Douse the Dogs of War" said in a Brooklyn accent tends to change the meaning. |
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This reminds me of that Chill Iraq idea from ages
ago. |
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Morrison, not certain what your examples are intended
to prove. You have shown a cultural universal of 'dog' as
an insult, but not disproven that in Islamic / arab
countries it is considered a grave insult. Reagan used to
call Gaddafi the "mad dog of the middle east", Iraqi GWB
shoe thrower called him a 'dog', muslims generally don't
keep dogs as pets but only for 'work' purposes because
they are seen as 'unclean'.
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On a side note, while I enjoy the companionship of dogs,
I find North American dog culture (where each private
family has their own dogs) a very _____, can't find the
right word but thinking 'stupid', phenomena. This is
contrasted to Asia, for instance, where a community
will possess a few dogs. |
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I imagine it must be rather difficult to form a close personal bond with something you view as rather tasty, which might explain that contrast. Another explanation might be the simple fact that in the USA, we generally have larger living spaces that most Asians. |
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That's true. I don't have a problem with dogs, but just like
cars, and other things it just gets to a ridiculous point
when every household has several of them. |
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My houselold is an excellent example of that, but all of my
dogs will run if filled with the appropriate fuel, which
cannot be said of the cars. |
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I would say your case is not a good example because you
live in isolation. The problem I present is now more clearly
understandable because of your involvement as one of
density. The issue is more about how social behaviour
must be adapted based on closer living arrangements. I
suppose because the will to have dogs can be expressed as
a general love of dogs people are willing to have a high
density of these basically useless sons of bitches pooping
everywhere. But even though I like dogs, I very much
dislike high dog density. |
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I can get on board with that. The value of multiple dogs
decreases as you reduce the canine containment space, or
perhaps the value remains constant but is eclipsed by the
detriments, thus creating the false impression of
uselessness.
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I will testify that there is a point of diminishing returns
with pet dogs even in my environment. Given unlimited
containment
space, this point seems to hover around 5-7 medium sized
specimens. The emotional bond decreases as each new dog
loses individual identity to the pack, and even with several
acres in which to distribute it, the amount of built-up feces
becomes quite unmanagable.
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One can never have too many dead cars, however, as long
as you have a large enough front lawn. |
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//I imagine it must be rather difficult to form a close personal bond with
something you view as rather tasty, which might explain that contrast.//
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That's a rather ignorant statement. Most Asian cultures do not eat dog
meat, and the ones that do (most prominently in South Korea, but even
there not as widely as you think) distinguish between dogs that are raised
for meat (a specific breed known as “Nureongi”) and dogs that are kept as
pets. Nureongi are rarely—if ever—kept as pets, and other breeds of dog
aren't eaten.
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Besides, your premise is flawed. My parents keep chickens, which they are
attached to and would never be able to eat. They have no problem eating
chicken in general, but there's a big difference between enjoying a tasty
meal and eating your pet. |
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I think 21_Quest just makes jocular offhand remarks, that aren't meant to be taken too seriously. There's some truthiness to his claims, but of course people should be wary of inaccuracies especially about racial or ethnic stereotypes, especially if those 'other' people, or sensible people, are around to make defences. |
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I foresee:Two wet dogs chasing a guy with an empty bucket. |
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//dog' as an insult, but not disproven that in Islamic / arab countries it is considered a grave insult.
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Because I can't see the difference between an insult and a grave insult. Someone is saying something to insult me, it's all the same, ignore.
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Having lived in an Arabic country I'm guessing "kussumak" is what you would consider a more grave insult than "ibn kalb", being a reference to a part of your mother's anatomy that rarely figures in polite conversation.
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I'm not even that interested in proving it one way or another, let us all know how the field research goes. |
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You cannot deny that, wrong though it *may* be,
there *is* a logical pathway to thinking there is a
connection between fewer dogs being kept as
household pets in a culture where dogs just
happen
to be a foodsource. And don't presume to tell me
how common I think dog consumption is in Korea.
You have no idea how much time I spent at Osan
Air
Base. If you'd like some numbers, here's a statistic
I challenge you to contest: According to the
National Assembly of South Korea, more than
20,000 restaurants, including the 6484 registered
restaurants, served soups made from dog meat in
Korea in 1998. |
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Nmrm, I think if you could disprove you would quite easily,
but
because you can't, for it's true, you say you won't instead.
So, I will take your concession as yet another minor victory
in the annals of online forum argumentative combat.
Adieu. |
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//You have no idea how much time I spent at Osan Air Base
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All in, 3 years and 27 days, and 47 separate nights in the drunk tank at the Korean police station. |
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How can I disprove myself? |
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//distinguish between dogs that are raised for meat
(a specific breed known as “Nureongi”) and dogs that
are kept as pets. Nureongi are rarely—if ever—kept as
pets, and other breeds of dog aren't eaten.//
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That's rather like saying white slaveholders weren't as
inhumane as one might think because they only
enslaved black people. |
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Nmrm, you only disprove yourself further. |
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//That's rather like saying white slaveholders weren't as inhumane
as one might think because they only enslaved black people.//
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Except for being absolutely nothing like saying that. I'm not passing
any moral judgment on dog consumption. In actual fact I couldn't
care less what people choose to eat. But there is a distinction made
between “dogs as pets” and “dogs as food”, even among those who
do eat dog meat.
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//And don't presume to tell me how common I think dog
consumption is in Korea.//
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You seem to think that it's common enough that people generally
consider dogs to be food rather than pets. You're mistaken. As I've
said above, people distinguish between food and pets, much like one
might have a pet chicken or rabbit and yet still eat those meats.
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There's an article on Wikipedia titled “Dog meat consumption in
South Korea” that gives a nice overview of changing attitudes, laws,
and public opinion regarding the consumption of dog meat. In actual
fact, all dog meat consumption in South Korea is technically illegal,
and many South Koreans refuse to eat dog meat on principle. It
certainly still occurs, but it's decidedly not such a prominent aspect
of South Korean culture that people find it “rather difficult to form
a close personal bond with something [they] view as rather tasty”.
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Furthermore, by extrapolating your viewpoint from South Koreans to
“Asians” in general, you're slandering an entire race based on your
limited and biased exposure to one aspect of a single society. |
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I don't know what the big deal is here. I breed rabbits for
meat, and the rabbits fall into three categories: pets,
breeders, and meat. They all come from the same stock
and have near-as-may-be identical genomes; the only
difference is that the
pets and breeders have names* and are not destined to be
killed and eaten at the age of six months.
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This has never posed a problem for me or for the rabbits.
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Many farmers have pet cows that receive special treatment
for no particular reason; some farms are littered with
livestock animals that have no specific purpose. Despite my
decidedly western sentiments concerning dogs,
I can well imagine that dog-consuming Koreans have this
same attitude and are no more troubled by it than I am by
my rabbits.
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* in the interest of full disclosure, I should note that the
occasional meatstock rabbit does receive a name, but it's
usually something like 'Mittens' or 'Mister Hat'. |
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From Syria to rabbit farming via light drizzle.
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Here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia article
titled 'Dog Meat', which show consumption not in
just a single society, but in North Korea as well as
the South, China, Vietnam, Timor, Sumatra,
Japan, and the Philippines:
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//In North Korea (officially the Democratic
People's Republic of Korea), in early 2010, the
government included dog meat in its new list of
one hundred fixed prices, setting a fixed price of
500 won per kilogram//
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//The eating of dog meat in China dates back
thousands of years. It is thought to have medicinal
properties, and is especially popular in winter
months, as it is believed to generate heat and
promote bodily warmth.[46][47][48] The meat is
popular in Guangdong and Guangxi[49] whence it
went on the menu for Chinese astronauts to
consume in outer space.[50] Historical records
have moreover shown how in times of food
scarcities (as in war-time situations), dogs could
also be eaten as an emergency food source.[51]//
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//In China, draft legislation was proposed at the
start of 2010, which aims to prohibit the
consumption of dog meat.[49] The legislation,
however, is not expected to be effective...For
example the 4th annual Yulin, Guangxi food fair
that took place on May 29, 2011 spanning 10 days
consumed 15,000 dogs//
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//The consumption of dog meat is associated with
the Minahasa culture of northern Sulawesi and the
Bataks of northern Sumatra, where dog meat is
considered a festive dish usually reserved for
occasions such as weddings and Christmas.[78]
Popular Indonesian dog-meat dishes are rica-rica,
also called rintek wuuk or "RW",[77] rica-rica
waung, guk-guk, and "B1". On Java, there are
several dishes made from dog meat, such as sengsu
(tongseng asu), sate jamu, and kambing balap.//
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//In 2008, Japan imported 5 tons of dog meat from
China//
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//Nevertheless, as is reported from time to time
in Philippine newspapers, the eating of dog meat
is not uncommon in the Philippines.//
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//Dog meat is consumed more commonly in the
northern part of Vietnam than in the south, and
can be found in special restaurants which
specifically serve this type of meat. Dog meat is
believed to bring good fortune in Vietnam.[115] It
is seen as being comparable in consumption to
chicken or pork.[115] In any urban areas, there are
always sections which house a lot of dog-meat
restaurants.//
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I never said it must surely be an ordeal to try to
bond with an animal you consider to be a food
source. I said I imagine it must be difficult, and I
do. I never insisted that that idea is correct, but
don't try to label me a racist for calling a spade a
spade. Dog meat consumption is quite widespread
throughout the Asian world and is even
mainstream in some parts of it. It just is. I didn't
pass judgement on those who consume dog meat
in any way. Someody else pointed out that
keeping dogs as household pets is rare in Asian
cultures, soI simply pointed out that there may be
a connection between those two factoids. Rabbits
might be an exception to the rule, but the general
rule in the USA is that foodsource critters are not
kept as pets. Most people don't keep chickens,
turkeys, pigs, cattle, or any other livestock as pets
and (again with the exception of rabbits) most
parts of the USA prohibit the keeping of such
animals within city limits without special permits.
Regarding the rabbit conundrum, however, I think
it'sprobably safe to say that rabbits are not as
widely consumed in the USA as other forms of
livestock I've mentioned in this annotation. There
are quite a lot of folks who will not eat rabbit
meat because they consider rabbits to be
companion animals, not livestock. |
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Yes, dog meat consumption is widespread a common in
Asian countries. I see it as not much different than eating
pigs, which are a carnivorous mammal, with high
intelligence, and a discomforting closeness to humans,
and are looked upon as a taboo meat source by some
societies. |
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Back to the idea... the consideration of the word
'dog' as an insult is an interesting one, and an
appropriate one, I think, in the context of mindless
violence. If the Muslims consider it to be a 'grave
insult', then perhaps having it pointed out in such a
grandiosely Halfbaked fashion that they're behaving
like a pack of wild dogs will really give them some
pause and make them sit back and think about their
conduct. |
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It's a nonlethal and peace oriented action, I'll give you
that, except for the insult part which to my mind is the
whole key. It's a complex situation in the ME with shia
and sunni and the rest waging holy jihad against
eachother and the West. It would be nice to be able to
splash some water or ice down their balls with some
imported snow from Canada, but these guys will not be
easily dissuaded. Think about it, they are facing grim
death by nerve gas, bullets, and bombs, so what repose
will a little H20 give them. Not much or none at all in
my opinion. Basically this confict is going to be for
years, and once they're done in Syria they will go back to
causing shit in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. |
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Right. That's why we should drench them with pigshit--not
once, as a warning, but in a ceaseless deluge for however
many months or years it takes to make them stop fighting.
Nobody's tried it yet. It could work. |
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^ You say pigshit, I say water. In sufficient
quantities, a deluge is a deluge. |
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Gallon for gallon, I think liquid pig feces would be far more
effective than water. |
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Fair enough... please note that I never specified
fresh water. Using salt water means you aren't supplying them with drinking water, and will likely corrode their weapons and supplies. |
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