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Oh Crimea River... all my people have left me
Oh Crimea River... please cleanse me of sin
Oh Crimea River.... may I rule them again!
Economic depression... at the hands of EU?
Or millions from Putin? What say all of you?
The people spoke loud, oh they spoke very clear:
"Economic
depression!"
they decided. Oh dear!
They stormed through the front gates, said they wanted me out..
"Kill Yanukovych!"? What's that all about?
Get off my lawn! Oh where shall I put you?
I wanted to help, but you forced me to shoot you!
It's all of your faults, you dogs! You bitch!
You dared to oppose Victor Yanukovych!
Oh Crimea River, I've been forced from my home...
Oh Crimea River, lay me down in your loam...
Sigh... Crimea River.
River Chorna...
http://www.halfbake...ea/Metric_20English
[not_morrison_rm, Feb 27 2014]
"Good people and bad people"
http://www.goodread...quotes/tag/vetinari
First quote on the page. [8th of 7, Mar 02 2014]
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Ahem, the river Chorna got its first mention on the Metric English post, June 15th, 2013k, final anno (mine) |
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Currently he's roaming around Putin's dacha sipping a
martini, I'll suspect, somewhere in the vincinity of
Sochi, where all eyes were focused last week.
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This calls for the Dial-a-Smite. |
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Hold that smite. The situation is not as black-and-white as it at first appears. I know a Ukrainian from the Donbass, and he is very much *against* Ukraine joining the EU, and he's not the only one - the electoral split of the country is near 50-50 (that's how Victor was elected president).
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Granted, using snipers for crowd control is illegal and immoral, but not everyone in that crowd is/was a fundamentally peaceful protester. On this occasion, when the Russians refer to "Fascists" among their enemies, it's not just an exaggerated rhetorical flourish. Some of them (though not a majority) are pretty well described by the word "Fascist". In Western Ukraine in the 1990s, I saw election posters with the slogan "It's time to go back into the woods and sharpen our knives", or words to that effect - and some of those people are still out there, and currently getting diplomatic cover from the UK and US. It's a worry. |
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// "It's time to go back into the woods and sharpen our knives" ...
getting diplomatic cover from the ... US. //
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Very Second Amendment. Presumably said "cover" being eagerly
endorsed by those Good 'Ol Boys from the NRA ... |
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No need to muddy the waters, [8th]. My point is that, as in Syria, there are some pretty nasty people on both sides, if you care to look. |
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That's exactly our point.
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[pertinax], the situation may be complicated, but
the 1994 treaty is pretty uncomplicated. It would
make total sense for Crimea, or even for Eastern
Ukraine to seek a referendum, and perhaps to
separate. Without the presence of Russian
Troops.
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BTW -- my bet would be that while many Russians
in the Ukraine are wary of Ukranian nationalist
rule, they certainly economically would prefer to
be in the EU than in Russia. |
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Your first paragraph is probably right, [tc]; Putin could probably get that territory fair and square without macho posturing, with just a little patience and restraint. The trouble is, he may *prefer* to do it the hard way.
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As for your second paragraph, it may be right, but it's not what I'm hearing from my Eastern-Ukrainian colleague - for what that's worth. |
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Well -- put another way -- there are Russian ethnic
minorities in every former Soviet republic. If the
protection against their interest against "fascism"
is allowed to stand as a reasonable standard for
the application of Russian Federation's army, it
could be used as a pretext to reannex all of them,
including perhaps even the Baltics. Certainly the
same rationale has been used to seed trouble in
Moldova and elsewhere.
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So from a world point of view, the time to say this
is unacceptable is now, not in some future 1939. |
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Precisely. There's a very real possibility that, contrary to Russia's
claims, it was Russia sowing the seeds of discontent in the Ukraine
and fueling the protest. Putin didn't want Yanukovych in power
because he could never justify rolling in his tanks to conquer an ally.
Putin is not interested in 'close ties' and never was. Putin wants
Ukraine flying the flag of the Russian Federation. Given Russia's
imperialist ambitions coupled with Russia's complaints about any
other country in the region trying to boost their defenses (ie, Poland
and the Missile Shield), it is obvious to me that Russia probably ought
to be contained, and told in no uncertain terms that if they don't
withdraw their troops within 48 hours they'll be kicked off the G8 and
G7. |
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I don't exactly see that scenario, 21. The current
Russian policy is to operate wherever they can in
the
'gray market' of politics, keeping places under
enough
pressure to keep them off-balance but not doing
enough to seriously piss off the indecisive /
inactive
west. Its in this gray zone where the oligarchs
and
associated corruption thrive. South Ossetia all
over
again. Russia's ally is confusion, to their own
disfavor, as terrorism, rebellion, and revolution are
always in tow.
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Russia's never actually 'invaded' anyone. They've
always been 'invited in for the protection of
Russian minorities,' or so the sarcastic saying goes
in Poland and elsewhere.
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Dial-a-Smite is awaiting our command... |
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Given enough space, the ethnic Russians would ALSO
prefer the West to Putin's rule -- they don't want to
live under a Ukranian official language rule, but they
would much prefer to be in the West than in the
East.
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There are some subtle signs that Russia is dialing
things back a bit that I'm seeing in Putin's rhetoric. I
hope I'm not imagining it. |
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If a large number of Crimeans want to be Russian, then they can GO to
Russia. I'm pretty sure the Ukrainian authorities haven't tried stopping
anyone from leaving. They cannot take such a huge parcel of
Ukrainian land and all its associated strategic importance and natural
resources with them. |
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//They cannot take such a huge parcel of Ukrainian land and all its associated strategic importance and natural resources with them
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Well, they do have the soldiers doing not a lot, so I imagine one very large bucket brigade could do the job. |
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//a huge parcel of Ukrainian land//
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I think you may be overestimating the degree to which a phrase like "Ukrainian land" has a fixed and settled meaning. In this case, it's "Ukrainian land" because of an arbitrary act by Khrushchov in the 1950s. Now, I'll concede [theircompetitor]'s point - that this status was confirmed by an international agreement in 1994 - but neither of those two decision points was in any way democratic or self-determined.
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It's a perennial problem of Eastern Europe, that national boundaries are largely a matter of where you're sitting when the music stops. Western Europe is a bit neater, because of mountains and seas, but in Eastern Europe - with its wide flat plains and meandering rivers - Jackson Pollock coloured in the ethnic map. |
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Yeah, see old joke of guy who was born in Poland, grew up in the USSR and now lives in the Ukraine...
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Not wishing to be bragging, but I did the Crimea River bit first, admittedly by a narrow margin...
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//Jackson Pollock coloured in the ethnic
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Are we back on the fish puns again? |
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When did you do the Crimea River bit? What post was it in? The
phrase doesn't turn up any results on the HB search tool. |
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I was being too oblique, it got a mention as the river Chorna, which is a Crimea river, see linky. |
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