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When did I suggest this before? If I did I'd be glad to recind the idea but I don't recall it. |
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I think you are talking about Therapy, not confession. When I talk about my SO, I want feedback - most confessionals are rather "one-way". |
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Confession is worthless (no matter what religious faith) unless the "offenses" are examined and sincere effort is made not to repeat them. Personal, self-examination works well....write down what you do wrong and how you want to change it. Make steps to change it and warning signs you need to recognize if you are falling into those traps. Review daily until avoiding them becomes habit without thinking. Confessions where you blindly group all offenses into a lump and ask to be "relieved" (that's all there is to it!) of the guilt associated with them, doesn't show active involvement to prevent repeat occurrences. |
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(apologies to waugsqueke, I just can't believe that "sins" are forgiven that easily without true effort not to repeat them....if I do something again and again....would I be forgiven everytime just by saying "I confess"? While I disagree with the Catholic version also, at least there is some forced self-reflection and time to think about what "offenses" occurred) |
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And what percent of people in churches on Sunday saying "I confess" actually work through some sort of self-examination and make a 100% honest effort not to be a repeat offender? On the other hand, what percent just say these things on Sunday morning out of habit and never seriously examine their lives and actions? I draw you into these conversations so you won't write things like "all you have to do is say "I confess" that's all there is too it...." because I want you to see that can't be all there is to it or it really means nothing. I also draw you into these conversations b/c I like you despite your faith, beliefs, and enthusiasm. :-) |
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And what percent of alcoholics, smokers, etc., are 100% sincere when they swear, "never again?" I think failure to achieve perfect repentance is more frequently evidence of personal weakness rather than insincerity, regardless of the individual's religion (And, Susen, thank you for injecting personal warmth into a discussion that can be testy among hotter heads). |
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UnaBubba: It's funny that you would ask for that, because
most of these "Goddy" debates are a result of initial ideas
that are posted by people who don't believe in God ("God
that is real", "Athiest's Vow"). Maybe if people quit poking,
the "Goddy" folks would quit poking back. (Not that I think
there shouldn't be anymore posts like that... you just
seem to be blaming it on the wrong people) |
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I sincerely am sorry that you've had bad experiences with
Christians and have found them to be pushy. However, I
really don't feel that anyone here has been that way, and
I do apologize if I personally have come off that way.
These conversations have seemed to me to be very
congenial. No one seems to be trying to convert anyone,
they are only expressing their own viewpoints on the
matter. |
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For instance, in the above series, Susen and Waug go back
and forth a few times, but in a friendly manner. Both
seem equally "pushy" to me (no offense to either of you,
of course!). This is usually how it goes around here. Two
(or more) people trying to present a convincing case for
their viewpoint. Why is it that expressing and defending a
viewpoint is ok on any other subject, but as soon as a
viewpoint is expressed on and in favor of religion, it's
suddenly pushy? |
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Probably because iRL very few people will argue/discuss for hours/days over, frex; fart silencers, green-banana candy, glow in the dark K-Y, or standardized flatulence scales, but pretty much everybody at some point has been pestered by a religious nut, usually xtian, wanting them to change to their flavor of religion. Some people get really tired of it and tend to be oversensitive to it. |
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Not saying anything one way or the other, just trying to translate what UnaBubba meant, or at least how I as an uninterested spectator read it. |
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But, saying that you confess just means admitting that you've done something and that, while you may feel badly, you don't necessarily plan on changing. For example, "I sincerely confess that yesterday I went over the speed limit in my car and I feel badly about it b/c I know that excessive speed puts others and myself at risk as well as being illegal". Yet, if I have no intention of actively keeping myself from speeding today, tomorrow, etc., and I make the same confession next week, then my confession today is worthless. Not because I wasn't sincere and not because I don't feel badly....I do....but because I made/make no active effort to change. This is what annoys me most about confessions of any sort. They do not show the confessor having to take any active role in seeking a pardon. |
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Is it possible for a confession to be sincere without an intention to change? I'm willing to consider it, but I've always thought that sincerity necessarily implied repentance. Interestingly, the New Testament (NRSV) connects "repentance" to forgiveness in many places, but connects forgiveness to "confession" of sins only in 1 John 1:9, and I believe repentence is implied even there. |
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I do agree with Susen, though, that repentence is far more critical than a simple admission of guilt without further consequence. |
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dgeiser, which type of confession did you intend in your idea? Or was the intent not really confession but a place to "unload" as in a psychotherapy session? |
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beauxeault, my original idea was envisioned differently than a atandard psycho-therapy session. i was
thinking more of a non-religous "confessional" (for lack of a better word) where anyone (religious or not) could "confess", i.e. tell, explain, unload, et. al, anything that was typically on their mind. |
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the purpose of this "confession" would not just be to tell someone but as a stepping stone to examination of what had been "confessed". the types of things which would be confessed would not necessarily be violations of a list of "sins" but could be anything which the "confessor" deemed appropriate. |
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I realized that typical therapy sessions could possibly embody the above attributes but i was thinking of the person who received the confessions would not have to be highly educated and wouldn't necessarily be responsible to provide feedback but would be more of a listener. |
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perhaps those who wished could be on "listening duty" (like jury duty) once every so often to get a feel of what sort of horrible or not-so-horrible escapades their neighbors were getting into which could create some sort of possible emotional feedback loop with the community around them. |
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PeterSealy, I would like to be the first to suggest circumcisions for non-Jewish or Moslem people since I am neither of those yet I am circumcised. |
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Susen: I agree with you that sincere effort not to repeat
offenses is a good thing, and will usually make a person
more successful at growing and overcoming sin and bad
habits. However, i think you are missing something
where you say, "This is what annoys me most about
confessions of any sort. They do not show the confessor
having to take any active role in seeking a pardon." |
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Actually, there very act of confessing can be the biggest
effort and the hardest obstacle to overcome for most
people. It takes a lot of introspection and humility just to
say "This thing that I've done is wrong." To get to that
point, a person first has to admit that there is a standard
out there, and they are falling short of that standard,
through their own fault. To admit this, and then go to
God and ask to be forgiven is a very big step. But that's
just what Christians believe that God wants... for us to be
honest with him and ourselves, and to go to him for
forgiveness and help when we realize (like waug said) we
need him because we can't free ourselves from the cycle. |
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(And to UnaBubba: thank you. No offense taken and none
meant on my part, as well. If a particular individual doesn't
want to talk about these things, I try my best to respect
his or her wishes. On the other hand, if someone has
questions, I try to answer them to the best of my ability.) |
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I always thought confession was a clever fundraising idea by the Catholic Church. I seem to recall someone, maybe Luther, saying "Forgiveness by the florin". |
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The use of the word verballed should be verboten. |
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I'm with the unburdening and honesty with self side of this argument rather than the forgiveness and repentance crew. Knowing about your actions, thoughts or whatever is not the same as saying things out loud. As PotatoStew nearly said, talking about something can sometimes be the first step down a different road.
Having said that, I don't see this as being something you should have to make an appointment for. Why can't the confessor be a tree, or your car or whatever. Plenty of people talk things out at the graveyard even though there's not really anyone listening (as far as I know). |
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"What would your father say if he was alive today?" |
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"Help, help, get me out of this box." |
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But in my Catholic church, we all start with the prayer, "I confess..." Is it just that Catholics are copycats, or are we just saying that to avoid hell? |
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Will someone who has confessed explain the process to me? I assume that you tell the guy something but I don't know what kind of thing he says back. I've seen in movies the "I killed a man" "say ten hail marys" depiction of confession. Is that how it really goes? |
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