h a l f b a k e r y"My only concern is that it wouldn't work, which I see as a problem."
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[Edited: Changed from hydraulic ram to airlift and pulser
pumps, also changed direction of rope] A simple
explanation about rope pumps, airlift pumps and pulser
pumps follows below.
This idea is about a high pressure easy to construct rope
pump.
All you need is a thick pipe, a thin pipe,
a rope and a
wheel.
The thick pipe has the thin pipe inserted into it but not
reaching all the way down. The rope is looped around
the wheel, then inside the thin pipe, and then back up
inside the thick pipe (but outside the thin pipe).
When the wheel is turned, the rope does two actions:
(a) It brings up the water in the thick pipe, and (b) pulls
down air into the thin pipe, releasing the air at the end
of the thin pipe, inside the thick pipe. (To understand
this better see the airlift pump explanation below)
The air at the bottom of the thick pipe accumulates and
creates pressure, similar to what happens in a pulser
pump (see pulser pump explanation below).
The water coming up the thick pipe, with the help of the
accumulated pressure of the air, moves faster than the
rope, (hopefully, if this works), in a similar way to a
person walking up an escalator, so the air pressure
should be giving the rope action a boost.
Its more efficient now, because it is assisted by extra
air pressure and the large bubbles (as seen in pulser
pumps) completely seal the rope area.
Small washers on the rope may assist or peaces of
mosquito netting.
If an air-water mixture is used, the water going down
with air would come from a small amount of the water
brought up. Because it is pumped out in a spray it
accumulates back with a lot of air, the water mixture is
then taken back down in the thin pipe by the down going
rope action.
The air is then released under the thin pipe
and pushes the water along with the rope extremely
enhancing the pumping effect.
____________________
Explanations:
Rope pumps (see linked video) work by simply passing a
rope loop (with or
without knots or rubber "valves" on it) through a pipe, &
outside it. When the rope is rotated (usually by a wheel
on top) water is pulled up.
Pulser pumps (see linked video) work by taking aerated
water or air
bubbles in water downward by gravity, releasing the air
into a cavity where it accumulates and then periodically
once the pressure is high enough pushes its way up an
exit pipe.
Airlift pumps (see linked video) are usually a simple
device with a thin pipe
taking air down, inserted into a thick pipe, both partially
immersed in water to a good depth.
The air is released at the bottom of the thin pipe (but
inside the thick pipe), & accumulates at the bottom of
the thick pipe until enough pressure is built up. It then
pushes its up, causing a pumping pulse upwards (in a
way similar to pulser pumps).
Airlift pump
http://www.youtube....DW0&feature=related
thin tube sends air bubbles into thick tube [pashute, Aug 25 2011]
Rope pump
http://www.youtube....mNA&feature=related
[pashute, Aug 25 2011]
Artificial pulser pump
http://www.youtube....watch?v=QOn7Zu3CCxo
Model, along with explanation of the workings in mines. [pashute, Aug 26 2011]
Lake Nyos
http://en.wikipedia...Lake_Nios#Degassing
Self-sustaining jet initiated by airlift pump. [8th of 7, Aug 26 2011]
[link]
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I'd get it if it were two separate pipes, but I don't see how you're going to push air down the outside pipe. |
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The rope going down the thick pipe takes air with it. |
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Put pieces of mosquito net along the rope, or rap the
rope with the net, or use small pieces of sponge. |
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Can't see this idea making much headway against innovative ideas like the Archimedian screw, the paddle wheel, and the Boulton & Watt Reciprocating Beam Engine with Separate Condenser. |
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8'th could you explain? What's wrong this time? |
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The rope pump is extremely simple. |
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The airlift pump is extremely powerful and
efficient, and is extremely simple as well. |
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This idea keeps the simplicity (two pipes a rope
and a wheel) and hopefully combines the two.
Why shouldn't it work? Or have merit? |
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According to the wikipedia sources that I found
for rope pump, there are 4 million(!) pumps of this
sort used for pumping drink-water in South
America alone! |
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Replaced link. I hope to try it tomorrow. |
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right...
1. if you're not sure of the details, I sure ain't
2. Okay, but that's air going up, this post has the air going down
3. yup, that's what WP said too
4. Neat... I don't see any relation to this idea. |
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So what I see your idea as forcing air down into an enclosed area to help pump the water up which is pretty straightforward, but what I don't see is why you have one pipe inside the other. |
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[pashute], I think you are a little fuzzy on a couple of issues here. |
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First, and perhaps, trivially, hydraulic ram pumps don't use air bubbles anywhere but in the pressure chamber (where a spring would work as well). You can eliminate all reference to them. |
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Second, the linked vid for the "manually-wound airlift pump" isn't at all helpful, and probably [later: most definitely] isn't even an airlift pump. You can lose that. |
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Third, if you have a good seal around the balls on a rope pump, air bubbles aren't going to have any effect, because the bubbles can't go up any faster than the rope is already carrying water. |
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Fourth, if this did work, you'd be doing just as much work to push air down as you gain by having air coming back up--minus the losses as the bubbles travel up through the water (the finer the bubbles the better, but you still are losing out). |
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Fifth, if you really wanted to make this, having nested pipes is just weird for comprehension. Put two pipes side by side (or explain things a lot better (and please rewrite to make the ups and downs clear). |
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First your right. I couldn't remember what the
pulser pump was called, and found a reference to
it as the invention of the hydraulic ram pump. In
fact they (wikipedia) were correct that a certain
type of hydraulic ram pump emulates the pulser
pump, but later I learned as you said correctly that
the ram pump works with a pressure chamber
(which could work just as well with a spring). So
I'm changing the name to airlift. And will change
the explanations to "Similar to a pulsar pump". |
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Second, the manually wound airlift pump turns out
to probably be a hoax. And your right in any case
it doesn't help. Except that it was the inspiration
for this idea, seeing the little amount of turning of
the handle and the giant amount of gushing water.
See my wikipedia entry on Wolfhart. (Start at
wikipedia:Invention scam and search for him),
anyway I removed the link. |
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Third, I'm talking about a valveless knotless rope-
pump. See my anno about possible mosquito net
improvement. |
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Fourth, ('you'd be doing just as much work to push
down...') - correct again! But its not an over unity
invention. Its just a better rope pump (hopefully).
So as it is now I'm using 100% energy and getting
back (up the rope) 2%. With this improvement I
hope to put in a different 100% (Say 200%
compared to the original) and get back 8% (16
compared to the original) because
of the air pressure (not the bubbles but the
accumulation of air at the entrance to upwards
pipe. |
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Fifth, the idea of pipe within pipe made it so that
there is no need for an accumulator. The way must
simple (air pressure) airlift pumps work. I'll rewrite
for clarity, and post here when done. |
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In any case: Thanks for the review!! |
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OK, better? No wait a sec...OK now. |
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Just a tip; when you edit your idea, don't write in
where you've edited it in the idea. Newcomers can't
follow what's going on and won't bother to try. It's no
longer accessible. Just mention in your annos where
you edited it, that's what they're for. |
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Sounds interesting though. |
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Thanks theleopard. Corrected accordingly. |
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The rope pump is a cheap, low flow device suited for hand operation. But if you have the rigid pipe running down into the water, how much better (and MUCH more efficient) to install a rod-operated force pump at the base of the pipe ? |
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Rope pumps have a relatively poor wiping "seal" (hem-hem) between the knots and the pipe wall; mechanically and hydrostatically inefficient. They are an improvisation for situations where nothing better is available. |
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The airlift pump has been shown to work in, for example, Lake Nyos, which has a layer of water supersaturated with CO2 at the bottom <link> where the air lift process generates a self-sustaining jet. |
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Airlifts are useful when diving as they are extremely simple and can lift objects up to the pipe bore in size, but consume large amounts of compressed air and therefore energy. |
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If you want to pump clean (potable) water, then an efficient turbine or reciprocating pump would be far more efficient; if you're planning on pumping an abrasive slurry, then maybe the other approach(es) are valid. |
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You're not re-inventing the wheel, here; rather, you're improving the "sled" while all around you, wheeled vehicles rumble past .... |
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I'm just wondering if a similar rope loop system could be used on the human digestive tract? On the rope, it has small sponges on it, saving a possible fortune in toilet paper. |
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//You're not re-inventing the wheel, here; rather,
you're improving the "sled" while all around you,
wheeled vehicles rumble past// says the inventor of
the Compressed-air powered guard's whistle. |
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Damn, you beat me to the punch... Good on yer, mate! |
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Ahh, but who guards the Compressed-air powered guard's whistle, now there's the rub... |
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4 million of them in south america providing drinking
water to villages. Similar numbers in remote areas in
Africa and central Asia. |
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Its more like the improving the sled, for people living
in Siberia, Alaska, the Falkland Islands and Tierra Del
Fuego. |
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