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it would be nice to read all these ideas and comments in book or magazine format. read on the bus or tube, lunchtime at work or in bed, at the doctors/psychiatrists waiting room etc
.......add on... and I know a brilliant illustrator!
Give it to the BBC
http://news.bbc.co....1868000/1868806.stm
[angel, Mar 12 2002, last modified Oct 05 2004]
Guerrilla Halfbakers
http://www.halfbake...rrilla_20Halfbakers
for phoenix [beauxeault, Mar 12 2002, last modified Oct 05 2004]
Found Magazine
http://www.foundmagazine.com/
Not what I mentioned in my annotation, but similar [phoenix, Mar 13 2002, last modified Oct 05 2004]
The Onion
http://www.theonion.com/
[waugsqueke, Mar 14 2002]
The Smoking Gun
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/
[waugsqueke, Mar 14 2002]
James Lileks web site
http://www.lileks.com
[waugsqueke, Mar 14 2002]
http://www.dezeen.c...to-be-cooked-first/
A book you have to bake before reading. Could it be any more perfect for this idea? [DrBob, Nov 16 2007]
Lulu
http://www.lulu.com
Quick & cheap way of publishing [simonj, Nov 16 2007]
Halfbakery Book mock-up
http://www.theyshou...alfbakery_book.html
Looks great!! [simonj, Jul 28 2008]
Superfreakonomics Review
http://www.newyorke...6crbo_books_kolbert
"Neither Levitt, an economist, nor Dubner, a journalist, has any training in climate science—or, for that matter, in science of any kind. It’s their contention that they don’t need it." [bungston, Dec 06 2009]
(?) XKCD book
https://whatif.xkcd.com/book/#thebook
The 'what if' book [mylodon, Oct 09 2017]
[link]
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In a half leather binding? |
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(c) snagger 2001 - to get my share of the royalties |
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(No - jutta deserves them all and more...) |
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I thought this was suggested before.... hmmm. |
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You could release an "Ultra Limited Special Edition" of the book that is also packaged with Post-Its, a pastry and a rotting fish carcass. |
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of course, the post-its would have to be edible. Have to. |
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I assume that it would come in "Bathbook" format for reading in the bath? Perhaps with a "book back brace", to prevent damage - or maybe if it's really thick and heavy, a free "In Bed Book Support"? An integrated "Bookwarmer"? Would it be the first book in the "Internet Book Database"? Would volume 2 be called "HalfBakery Book: The Quickening"? ...etc., etc. ... |
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I think jutta should start a line of underwear with croissants printed on them... and little sachets of custard pinned inside. Some bright spark could invent a way to make them explode when you come close to another 1/2baker. That would be funny. |
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Go on, post "Proximity-triggered croissant-patterned exploding custard knickers". I'd give it a croissant vote. |
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A double-sided book. From the front the cover is a croissant and you read through the best ideas (since the previous edition). Flip it over and the back cover is a fishbone and you can read through the worst ideas... |
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Shame. I think this would be a surefire winner as a Christmas stocking-filler, and maybe even give jutta some worthy recompense for her work in keeping this place running. I'd have no copyright quibbles with my comments or ideas ("Aye, right; in your dreams, boy!") being printed in a 1/2B collection. Might need a bit of judicious editing though. |
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The beautifully bound 12-volume set of HalfBakery ideas - and the 3-volume "Vernon" supplement. |
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I'd like to refloat this idea for further consideration. I'd add that, if she would consider it, bris's illustrations would be a wonderful addition, worth the price of the book. |
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I'm certain there must be a way to overcome the obstacles to this. |
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This is at least the third time this idea has been half-baked, and it always comes to the conclusion that jutta can't sell the book because the ideas technically belong to the poster, and since all posters are anonnymous, no-one can be attributed and so copyright becomes a problem, blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda, legal stuff. |
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How about posting a waiver idea which requires everyone to annotate it. Would that overcome copyright problems? |
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Wouldn't it be possible to grant permission by proxy? That is, attribute the invention by HalfBakery username (for those that give permission to use their ideas). Surely publication doesn't infringe on the inventors rights as long as limits are set on how the publication can be used. |
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Not a lawyer, so I don't know. |
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[ sctld ], thank you for restating the problem. Again, I refuse to believe there isn't a solution to it. There must be a way. |
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It would seem to me that any such book would not be claiming ownership of the ideas, as such, merely the words written to the website. And whereas all such words would be credited to the username used by the author, I can't see where there would be a problem. No one would be entitled to any earnings based on those words, just as you are not entitled to any earnings based on those words you write here now. Where site ownership clearly belongs to jutta, I would think she has the right to use this information however she chooses. Again, as phoenix sez... not a lawyer, so don't know. |
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We need a good IP expert. beaux... are you know up on this stuff? |
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I think the biggest problem here would be that nobody would want a copy of it but us, and as the original writers of the ideas, why would we want it? <I'd probably buy one, but I dunno if enough people would to make it worth printing...> |
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Oh, I disagree [StarChaser]. What we would need are the Guerilla HalfBakers to keep checking the copy out of the local library until it makes the Top 10 list. After that, momentum would take over. After all, there's nothing in the world quite like what this tome could be. |
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<OTButInteresting> Just did an HB search for 'Guerilla HalfBakers'. The link that didn't get returned? Guerilla HalfBakers. </OTButInteresting> |
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I, for one, would have no problem with certain ideas I've posted being included. Furthermore, I would have no problem with [jutta] profiting from such a venture so long as:
1) My IP rights (if any) are not impacted, and
2) [jutta] promises to use at least half the profits from any such venture to support the HalfBakery web site - the definition of which I'll leave to her. |
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As with the sub-admin thing, my hat is over the fence. I'll leave it to my betters to lead on. |
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While I understand where you're coming from, phoenix, I'd bet that it's exactly those two conditions that would prove insurmountable. |
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I'm sure your property rights would be impacted. There would need to be something to cover that, something acknowledging that all information entered here becomes 'property' of the halfbakery, and thus, can be used as desired. I would not have a problem with this, and I would not be surprised if there is legal precedent for it. If one really thinks one has come up with a great invention that will change the world, one would actually produce it, not write it up as a half-baked idea. |
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And secondly, I don't think we could, or should, have any say in how jutta chose to use whatever profits were reali(s)ed. I'd be happy just to see her get something in return for all of her hard work and patience. |
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And SC, there are a number of examples of books spun off of web sites that have done fairly well. One that comes to mind of recent is the Onion's "Our Great Century". Yes, the Onion is also a print periodical, however it has a limited distribution and the website is really how they have become known nationally (and possibly internationally?). I think all it would take would be to have a few publishing folks scan through here for an hour or so and they'd be sold on the idea. |
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The only negative I can see is the likely increase in new site visitors, which is in itself not a bad thing, but depending on how successful the book became, the influx could be overwhelming (being optimistic on sales). |
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[ravenswood, the description below your link is incorrect. If you send in a printed book, the base price is $199. $99 is for the electronic submission.] |
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In my (unqualified) opinion all the IP rights thing is a bit of a red herring. Anything that you plonk onto the halfbakery is put into the public domain and is done so on the implied agreement that the site supervisors have complete control over the content. When you post anything onto the 1/2bakery, you have automatically signed away your rights to it. |
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First the most important issue: phoenix, don't worry. The Guerrilla Halfbakers have not been decomissioned (link). Most likely, your search came back empty because you used only one "r" in "Guerilla." I believe both spellings are accepted, but of course, the search engine only accepts the one I used. |
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As to IP rights, I believe bookworm is or is soon to be a real lawyer (I only play one on TV), so he may wish to correct any of the following: |
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As I understand it, there are two IP issues here. One is patent rights and the other is copyrights (and in a very few cases, possibly some trademark issues). Patent rights are the rights an inventor has in being able to prevent others from practicing his invention. They are granted by various governments as a way to encourage inventors to not keep their inventions secret forever. In the U.S., once an idea is published, the inventor has one year to apply for a U.S. patent, or the idea enters the public domain. Posting on the halfbakery constitutes publication, whether the inventor intends it or not. In most of the rest of the world, the invention enters the public domain immediately upon publication, unless patent application(s) have been previously filed. The bottom line on patent rights is that publishing a halfbakery book would have no bearing whatsoever, since the ideas have already been published on the web site. |
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Copyrights are different. These are the rights an author has in written works, sound recordings, artworks, etc. These do not cover the ideas, but the expressions of the ideas. Most western nations (perhaps most nations worldwide?) now recognize copyrights as belonging to authors immediately upon creation of the copyrighted work, whether the copyright is formally registered with any government or not. Copyrights extend for the life of the author plus a long time (I think in most cases it's either 50 or 75 years past the death of the author. This number has been changing recently). As of 1978(?) in the U.S., at least, you no longer have to include a copyright notice to retain the copyright. In short, the text of any idea or annotation on the halfbakery is copyrighted by the poster, unless the poster has published a specific intent for the posting to be in the public domain (some users have such a notice in their user profiles). |
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So a book publisher would have to have permission from each poster involved to publish the book. As waugsqueke says, this is something that *could* be worked out, though I can see three practical issues:
1) The chore of administrating all of this could be fairly onerous, but I think this could be overcome by setting up an efficient opt-in system.
2) I'm not quite sure exactly how you'd handle the pseudonym issue. I think the account passwords would be sufficient to ensure that when a user grants permission, that permission actually comes from the author of the submissions. But if the user does not reveal his or her true identity, how do you hold copyrights in a pseudonym? Obviously, it can be done, since books are commonly published under pseudonyms, but I just don't know what the implications might be for this case.
3) Unfortunately, some of the authors whose permission you'd want are no longer active halfbakers, and may not be reachable even at email addresses they may have posted in their user accounts. This is the biggest headache I see, since you'd have to remove annotations from incommunicado halfbakers, as well as the few who would refuse permission, and it might be a lot of work to find discussions that would not be rendered senseless by the resulting holes. |
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I'd love to see a halfbakery book. But I question whether the halfbakery has the mindshare required to generate enough sales to interest a publisher. Some of you may have a better view of this than I do, but I'd guess The Onion is familiar to at least ten times as many people as the halfbakery is. What we need is a publicity event or two. Maybe we could get some news coverage if we picketed the US Patent Office -- or the Pillsbury Bake-off (or if we entered our own half-baked recipes). Any other ideas? |
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I also think the halfbakery TV show would be even better than a book, and although it might be tougher getting a receptive audience with the right producer (maybe thumbwax could help?), I think the existing mindshare issue would be less of a problem. And of course, a TV show would be the perfect publicity stunt for getting a book published. |
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Thanks, beaux, I knew you had it in you. I'm still somewhat up in the air on the permissions issue, though. I tend to think along the same lines as the good doctor. |
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Here's another line of thinking. I don't know if it's appropriate to our example, but I'll put it out for discussion. Let's say one of us writes a letter to Time Magazine. Once Time receives that letter, it is free to use it how it chooses. It 'owns' the letter and can publish it in any form, in full, edited or excerpted, as many times and as many different ways it wants. |
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Now, presumably, when one writes Time Magazine, one understands that the letter could be used this way. Inherent in the act of writing, one is giving permission for Time to use the letter as it deems fit. |
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Could not this same line of thinking be applied to the halfbakery? Does the halfbakery "own" the information posted to it? |
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Another for-thought example: CNN regularly broadcasts comments and emails sent to them via their website. |
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"3) Unfortunately, some of the authors whose permission you'd want are no longer active halfbakers, and may not be reachable even at email addresses they may have posted in their user accounts. This is the biggest headache I see, since you'd have to remove annotations from incommunicado halfbakers,"
I'd have to disagree (again) on three (possibly tenuous) points:
1) An annotation is not an idea
2) The annotation reflects the users HB identification, so there's no real-world exposure of identity. The annotator remains anonymous so no damage done.
3) I've recently read about a book being published which consists solely of notes found on scraps of paper floating about New York. In many cases real (though probably not full) names were printed. Again, anonymity is provided. Again, probably no real effort was put forth to identify the originator |
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As far as the financials thing: I put the suggestion in solely because I don't want [jutta] to become rich and skip off to some tropical isle, male harem in tow, and leave us all hanging. |
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And [beauxeault], you blew the intended pun about the 'Guerrilla Halfbakers' being the ... missing link. Thanks for the spelling correction anyway. |
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What we really need is a guerilla publisher. |
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D'oh! I *hate* missing puns. |
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phoenix, what you're talking about is not an intellectual property issue. It's a privacy issue. Copyrights can allow an author to protect his/her privacy, but more often they're enforced to make sure the author is paid for something they created. So the concern would not be that the departed halfbakers' identities might be revealed, but that they might sue for a share of the revenues. I'm amazed to hear of the book you mention. I'd think the authors of those notes still hold the copyrights, and I'd be very afraid of publishing them without permission. |
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waugs raises a good point, though. It relates to the right jutta has to publish the things we submit to her site, which I see as pretty similar to the publication of letters/emails to the editor. Surely there is an implied consent in the submission. But does that extend to derivative works like a book? I don't know. It may be one of those gray areas that hasn't been settled yet. |
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At any rate, permissions from all participants would seem to be at least a sufficient step for publishing a book, if not a necessary one. |
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My totally naïve opinion: I think that US Courts would find the annotations here to be the property of the halfbakery rather than the poster in the absence of a specific agreement. |
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I know an IP attorney and, if I remember, I will ask her this question. |
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Well that's that sorted then; what's the next problem? |
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That's my take on it as well, bris. And, as that appears to be the only major obstacle, this seems very doable to me. |
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Just curious, regarding the permissions concept... is there anyone here who would object to their ideas/annotations being published in this book? |
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jutta, would it be alright with you if I did some further research into this? (Of course, another major obstacle would be whether you even want to be bothered with this.) |
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No objection here. I think that illustrations would be essential though. |
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I'm not at all sure that illustrations are important as they represent only one person's point of view: the illustrator's. I have similar feelings about music videos but that's another story. |
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just 2 things; are you still voting on this as an idea? ahem and who does the illustrations on the back of the halfbakery T-Shirt? Is that Jutta? |
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Yes, I believe jutta did those illustrations. |
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Oh ye of little faith. Why do you all think that no one would buy such a book other than us? I would probably _not_ buy the book, since I would already know everything in it. |
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But I'm sure the book-buying public would be receptive to such a book. I've been doing some more checking and I've discovered that TheOnion.com has released not just the one book, but at least three. "Our Dumb Century" (title corrected) currently ranks 1,140 on Amazon's Sales Ranking system. AND "Dispatches from the 10th Circle: The Best of The Onion" is at 535. Considering how many products Amazon carries, those are excellent sales rankings. |
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The Smoking Gun has also released a book of their material. And if James Lileks can release "The Gallery of Regrettable Food" in book form and sell it, surely a Halfbakery book would be well received. |
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bristolz, I agree with your point about music videos (they're mainly there to distract from the quality of the music), but I think that, in a book of this kind, illustrations would break up the annos nicely (a bit like the Winnie the Pooh books). |
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Making something available on the Web counts as
publishing, doesn't it? And since Jutta owns and runs the
site, I would think technically Jutta is already publishing
our ideas and annotations. So if I had any rights to sue
her for putting them in book form, then I would think that
I also had rights to sue her for publishing my ideas and
annotations on her website. Which is to say that I don't
think she could be sued for publishing in a book what she
is already legitimately publishing on the web. Either that
or we could all sue her right now. "What? I didn't realize
that you would actually post my annotation for everyone
to see when I hit the "ok" button!" |
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OK 'Stew, I'm game. I'll put £10 into the "Let's take jutta to the cleaners Fighting Fund".
What's that you say? Loyalty? |
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I'm still two months and a bar exam away from being a real lawyer, so this isn't legal advice, just an academic discourse on what IP rights are. |
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Copyright rests in the expression, not the idea, and can only be put in the public domain by an express transfer. I think the general take on website postings is that the author retains copyright, and the site posted to has an implied license to publish the content on that site, but not in other media. |
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Patent rights rest in the invention itself, and not its description, and don't seem applicable here. It's bad form to credit someone with an invention if someone else patented it, but I don't think it's illegal. (Let me remind you that this isn't legal advice; don't try this at home.) |
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Basically, I think that the way to do this is to get permission from an idea's author to include it. I know I'd be fine with that; I suspect enough other halfbakers would be to make this viable. And it would sell well if marketed right; I picture a small crescent-shaped book in the "impulse buy" section by the cash register, or a big coffee-table book. (Or an idea-a-day calendar, but that's a separate idea.) |
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Of course, there's the downside that there would be a huge influx of newbies... |
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Waugsqueke, you're equating apples and half croissants. The Onion is a collection of comedy 'news' stories written specifically for publication. The Halfbakery is a bunch of oddballs noodling around for their own amusement, never before intended to be shown anywhere but here. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just isn't the same. |
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I don't think anyone on the 'bakery is so overzealous with their ideas or annos that they would have a problem with it. But then some halfbakery lowlife would pop up and sue and have a fit... |
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I think there would actually be a reasonable way for those interested in capitalizing in this project to get it done. A general announcement could be made as to submissions, people could share the cost, and capitalize on some pre-defined formula of whatever they've contributed. Jutta and team would receive a substantial cut, and as long as we covered all the bases beforehand, it wouldn't have to get too ugly.
Might have to turn it into the Halfbakery Encyclopedia, though.
The tricky part would be to decide what gets published, and what doesn't. Even with the voting system, I forsee lots of potential for abuse in order to get published. |
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The thing to do is to take this to Penguin Putnam, the same house that published "the Darwin Awards". They didn't do too badly with that one, I believe. |
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Who published 'Unnovations'? |
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OK
The time has come to stop the talking and actually do
something.
Halfbakery Book |
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100 best Ideas, based on ratings, for which we actually
find authors willing to have them published. 50 worse
Ideas, again based on ratings, for which we actually find
authors willing to have them published. |
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All annotators unwilling to have their comments published,
can indicate so, and have their comments removed.
Idea authors can also indicate whether they would like
their illustrations included also. |
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Re profits/Loss
Incorporate the Halfbakery Publishing Inc, issue an IPO,
allow interested bakers to buy up to 49% of the shares,
Jutta keep the rest, use the funds to publish the book,
market over the internet, BOOM...jutta has to change
servers due to the sudden intrest in the site, book goes
to # 1 on all best sellers list, all investors become
millionaires and retire to St. Tropez, etc. etc. |
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Your enthusiasm is recognized, senator, but it's up to jutta, not any of us. |
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I don't think we'd ever get around to actually putting the thing together, though... |
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Still waiting for the HB book...with several self-publishing sites springing up on the web (www.lulu.com )... what'sthe holdup? :) |
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See link above for appropriate book design. |
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Just been reading the annos for this about copyright problems etc. guys there is a very simple solution. Just ask the author of each idea if it's ok to include in the book. Get them to sign a release. Bingo problem solved. I would start by going through the top 100 ideas and deciding which of them would work well in book form, with appropriate illustrations. Next, contact the authors. If they can't be contacted or don't want to participate, move on. There are plenty more ideas to work with. |
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I'd quite like some bottom ideas too! oops, what did I say? |
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No, quite right po, some of the best ideas are:
(a) overlooked gems, such as Constantly Punching Hands;
(b) divisive and therefore showing a near zero net croissant-fishbone balance; and/or
(c) cruelly stripped of votes as a result of the Crash of '04, as the oldtimers have it. |
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<sucks on pipe> <looks thoughtful> |
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"ah, I remember the "crash" like it was yesterday. they don't make ideas like that these days!" |
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check out the mock-up! (see link) |
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Who is greg? I love the cover. Someone
did just come out with a book about
halfbakedish inventions. I saw a review
somewhere. I'll try and find link. |
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Linked is a review to Superfreakonomics, a new book. The
authors fix various problems with obvious solutions, like
shooting reflective particles into space via 18 mile hose into
space. I thought "yeah, I've heard that one before." |
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I wonder about an HB book. I wonder if people who publish
books for their livings have ever come skulking about, making
offers. |
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Thinking more about turns of phrase that might be found in
such a book, I am 99% sure that in the help section under
humor there once was a very fine phrase describing a type of
humor in which the reader invites the humorist to drink a
beer as they celebrate their shared humanity - ending with a
note that the example of attempted humor bein discussed is
not like that. My goodness what a bad description. Hopefully
someone can link up or paste that phrase? |
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[blissmiss] "Patently Absurd" portrays some half-baked ideas that are actually patented. |
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//shoot reflective particles into space//
yeah there's a plan: kill off all those pesky plants. |
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I think this is a really good idea.
I think it has been done in a few ways - but it could be done better. |
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I'm not sure if it is a saleable idea.
It may need to be a marketed idea.
It definitely needs a skilled illustrator. |
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Most of the discussion about this happened before facebook, but buns happened before facebook likes. There's a lot of old originality on this site. |
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If nothing else, this book could be POD; which is not very classy but I have seen very nice POD coffee table books at very classy joints, although to be fair, they were written by algorithms. |
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If this happens before Christmas I'd have at least two gifts sorted. |
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A few years ago, I collected my ideas into a book called 'You
Could've Thought Of That' and self-published it via
Smashwords and Amazon, I think it was. It's no longer
available because I decided I ought to remove a Jimmy
Savile reference and then didn't bother to put it back up
because it didn't sell. |
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I don't think there's any way to solve the intellectual
property problem. Also, it would be absolutely huge and
very expensive, like a multi-volume encyclopaedia. |
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This could work, but it would need a lot of input. |
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It's no good just presenting the ideas - most of them are too short, and leave too many open questions. What you want is an idea, as posted, and then a couple of pages analysing its feasibility and physics. Put together a hundred or so such ideas, add illustrations, and you have a guaranteed winner in the popular science category. |
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I think the issue with all books is marketing. There are at
least two problems. If you try to get a mainstream
publisher or agent, the problem is selling your book to
that
person or organisation. Or you can self-publish. If you do
that, you exchange your problem with getting publicity
and
marketing it to the public yourself. It's similar to having
an
employer or being self-employed. As I type this though, I
wonder if someone in an academic engineering
department
could put it on a reading list. |
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Or maybe you could found a religion on it and make it a
sacred text. |
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