h a l f b a k e r yA hive of inactivity
add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random
news, help, about, links, report a problem
browse anonymously,
or get an account
and write.
register,
|
|
|
I was watching the movie ‘300‘ yesterday, which was followed by
'King of Kings', and was reminded of an idea which occurred to
me
long ago: all those badass warriors locked shield to shield, trying
to
poke their spears and swords over the tops and strike at the
helmeted heads of their opponents
were
doing it all wrong. To a
man, they were either barefoot or wearing open-toed sandals,
and
they were completely unprotected from the knees down. I posit
that
a truly ingenious commander would have seen this flaw and
invented cleats, with which to stomp the unprotected toes of his
enemies, much sooner than they were actually invented.
Thoughts?
By the way, I've seen pictures of caligae, the hobnailed sandals
worn by Roman Legionaries, but I don't think they could be
considered cleats. The hobnails didn't protrude far enough to
stick down between the leather straps of an opponent's sandals
and do any damage, at least not that I can see.
samurai iron shoes
http://en.wikipedia...ke_armored_tabi.JPG
[not_morrison_rm, Apr 10 2012]
Please log in.
If you're not logged in,
you can see what this page
looks like, but you will
not be able to add anything.
Destination URL.
E.g., https://www.coffee.com/
Description (displayed with the short name and URL.)
|
| |
din't mediaeval knights wear pointy armoured shoes ? |
|
| |
I'm not sure what the wooden platforms that Samurai
wore were all about, but I'll bet those could deliver a
nasty knock.
|
|
| |
Speaking for my own ancestors, anyone trying to kick a
Viking in the shins would be begging for a battle wytch
upside the ear. I've been in a swordfight or three (not the
killing kind, but painful enough in recreational sort of
way), and the last place you
want to be looking is down at your enemy's feet. There's
none of this dramatic looking him straight in the eyes,
either; you watch his weapons.
|
|
| |
[Toasty], mounted knights wore metal spats and greaves
because their feet were right at hacking level to anyone on
foot. The pointed toes deflected blows away from the foot
and the flank of their horse, much like a pointed helmet
deflects blows from the head and sloped armor on a tank
deflects projectiles. |
|
| |
There have been some studies of Anglo-Saxon skeletons looking for sharp object trauma, and heads and shins were the top targets. An enemy shin is much easier to hit with a spear than with a leg. Also, poking a spear forward and down into range of enemy weapons is less foolish than poking a leg in the same direction. |
|
| |
Hoplite warfare was a bit like being in the front of the queue for the January sales. Once the opposing lines closed up, the guys in the front were just pushed along by the weight of all the guys behind. Stabbing at any exposed flesh that came into view was about as good as you could hope for, the throat and groin area being particularly vulnerable.
Trying to stab your spear into someone's foot would be difficult in the initial impact because you are marching shoulder to shoulder with your shield held in front of you, which restricts your field of action and vision somewhat. If the lines thin out sufficiently for you to be able to take some more individual action then stabbing down would require you to move your shield out of the way, leaving you vulnerable yourself, and you would also have to take your eyes off of your opponents actions momentarily in order to look down, also leaving you vulnerable. |
|
| |
//Hoplite warfare// that would be after your
opponent had stomped your foot, no? |
|
| |
so a better solution would be to have shiny objects and whirligigs on the footwear to distract the enemy. |
|
| |
Ah, yes, spears. Bit of a different issue, that. Running
headlong into a pikewall wasn't exactly our specialty. We
were more of a 'nip around the side and catch the buggers
in the flank' sort of warrior race. Unless it was us holding
the spears, of course.
|
|
| |
Further rumination on this topic reminds me of a passage
in a book of long-forgotten titleage in which the author
proposed (and quite adequately defended) that the
footwear of an infantry soldier had (and has) far more to
do with where and when he's going to be marching than it
does with the actual fighting. When it comes right down to
it, no more than 1-2% of a soldier's service is spent in
combat. |
|
| |
//There's none of this dramatic looking him straight in the eyes, either; you watch his weapons.//
|
|
| |
Fascinating.
I had a friend who said he had been taught kendo by his step father and had mastered it.
When I told him I thought he was full of shit he whipped up a couple of ballanced practice swords and used me for a smacking dummy for about two weeks, (the length of time it took me to learn to stop looking at his weapon and look him in the eyes so that my body could react to peripheral attacks and not fall for feints), after that he couldn't touch me anymore but it took months before I was finally able to slash his throat once... just once.
Took one helluva knock to the forehead for my trouble but, damn it felt good. |
|
| |
I have been similarly trained to look
into my opponent's eyes in Krav Maga ( and similarly
punished), and I do when
practicing such, but in midieval-style swordfighting my
training has been this: yes, look into your opponent's eyes
until somebody makes a serious move, then your focus is
on his
weapons (a shield is also a weapon, if you know how to use
one) until the fight is over. This is for two reasons: 1) the
fight will likely only last two or three strokes, so the
placement of the first blow pretty much determines how
the whole fight will play out, and 2) unless you are very
good, cocky, foolish, or any combination of those three,
you will be holding a rather large shield and can afford the
luxury of looking wherever makes the most sense at the
time. Feints are useful, but they are not a serious factor
in your overall level of ability. Learn how spot 'em, use 'em
if ye dare, that's about it.
|
|
| |
This method is what I've learned from a series of informal
and/or impromptu instructors, half of whom I've surpassed.
It's definitely not everyone's way, but I'm doing okay with
it. I have tried to import techniques from Krav Maga, but
since there is no difference between practicing and
fighting in the 'art'* of midieval swordplay,
experimentation always begins with a period of painful and
humiliating arse-thrashings.
|
|
| |
* If 'go kill that guy with this long metallic sharp object'
can be described as an 'art' |
|
| |
Just because if I don't say it somebody will probably ask,
I've been asked multiple times how I think I'd stand against
a kendo fighter of equivalent prowess, and my answer is
this: I honestly don't know, but he'd only get one mistake. |
|
| |
//Just because if I don't say it somebody will
probably ask, // |
|
| |
//learn to stop looking at his weapon and look him in the eye//
Watch out for those kendo masters wearing sunglasses
|
|
| |
//wooden platforms that Samurai //
Photo please. I could be wrong here but I think you're talking about "geta" clogs, which are just for day to day wear for wandering around in a place with a high rainfall. |
|
| |
I seem to recall from some documentary that stomping on the enemy at every opportunity was, in fact, explicitly encouraged and practiced in the Roman army.
|
|
| |
Spikes would cause infection, and thus help win the war, if not the battle. |
|
| |
Wounding an opponent's lower legs was a fairly
large part of sword combat, if you were both on
the same level. It's difficult to manoeuvre if one
of your legs is not working properly.
|
|
| |
However, stepping on someone means you'll be
close enough for them to stab or slash you.
Probably not that clever.
|
|
| |
Romans wore bronze hobnails on the soles of their
sandals because they had to walk everywhere, on
dirt, stone, mud and slippery surfaces. |
|
| |
Sure, "let's go over and tread on their toes" is not going to be a winning strategy, but when you _are_ too close to swing a sword, something is better than nothing. |
|
| |
Headbutt. Warhorses were taught how to do it, too.
|
|
| |
Humans have a long and illustrious history of devising
ways to maim, injure and kill each others in
unpleasant fashion. |
|
| |
Indeed. But I'm pretty sure my memory is correct about stomping on the enemy. Probably more for those who had fallen or stumbled, though, just to make it less likely that they'll get up again. |
|
| |
No, I prefer cycling. It took me quite a while to work out what was meant by //cleats//, for that reason. |
|
| |
There's certainly an advantage to kicking a man while
he's down... especially if he's going to run you
through if he gets back up again.
|
|
| |
Probably more fun to fill his helmet with boiling
porridge, while he's wearing it, particularly if you're a
Pict. |
|
| |
Stomping would also level the playing field. After all, you don't want your comrades to trip.
|
|
| |
I wonder if that's the origin of goose-stepping. Lift foot high, bring it down forcefully, thus stomping on, rather than stumbling over, the fallen. (No, it's not. Apparently it's to "keep troops lined up correctly") |
|
| |
Good guess though. I always figured it was to inspire fear as the pounding came closer. |
|
| |
Goose-stepping just looks awkward and weird... and
strangely North Korean, these days. |
|
| |
// I could be wrong here but I think you're talking about
"geta" clogs //
|
|
| |
No, I'm sure your right. I really don't know much about
Oriental history before 1931. |
|
| |
The solution is stilts. I envision a sort of stilts arms race, with longer and longer stilts devised to kepp the upper hand. |
|
| |
// Wounding an opponent's lower legs was a fairly large
part of sword combat //
|
|
| |
Yes, but with a sword. In fact, one of my go-to moves is a
high shield-block with an underhand strike at the
hamstrings or femoral artery. It works well for me because
I'm tall and everyone expects me to go high. But I'm
certainly not out there trying to kick anyone. |
|
| |
Interesting conversation. Now the choice I must make is thus:
shall I delete, as befits an idea that was known to be MFD
fodder at the outset, or keep it for the sake of the annos? |
|
| |
Keep it. It's a perfectly good idea. |
|
| |
Let it stay. It's better than a lot of the trash we've
accumulated over the years. |
|
| |
So sayeth the congregation.... stay it shall. |
|
| |
// I could be wrong here but I think you're talking about "geta" clogs //
|
|
| |
I was going to say the origin of "geta" is when someone thought, "I have to get a better pair of clogs". |
|
| |
I keep seeing "The wonderful history of Keats", which
gets me to thinking Tennis-on and what a Word's
worth. |
|
| |
Are you seeing a terrapinst? |
|
| |
Well I am somewhat acupuncturphobic. |
|
| |
Don't worry, they're just little pricks. |
|
| |
So are the Normans, but that doesn't stop them stomping
on your feet in battle. It wasn't the lack of cavalry that
soured things for the Saxons, you see, it was [21]'s combat
cleats. |
|
| |
And I just keep thinking about John Cleese. I'm sure there's a pill for that somewhere. |
|
| |