h a l f b a k e r yGuitar Hero: 4'33"
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I understand that they sell tuna in plastic packages but I never
saw that in my country, only cans. So my proposition, when
you open the can, you find tuna that was cooked in oil but
most of the oil has been strained out of the can, and you don't
have to squeeze it out yourself.
Mary Midgley on the world, animals, nature, culture and human values
https://en.wikipedi...g/wiki/Mary_Midgley
[pashute, Jul 05 2015]
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Uh, this is widely available here, and has been for a
few years. Just Google "no drain tuna" or somesuch. |
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I don't believe the oil (or water) is for cooking, it's for
preserving. |
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ETA: Having looked at the "no drain" tuna, I stand by my
statement. It looks like it uses a very densely packed can,
so a very little bit of liquid suffices to fill the remaining
space. |
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Whoever will import that to Israel will make a mint. |
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OK I read on Greenpeace that it was invented by John West
Thai food company in 2009. Not much chance they'll be able
to sell in Israel (gladly since) they fish outside the
internationally accepted areas and methods, so their fish
cannot be kosher - until canned it is mixed with non kosher
fish like sharks or with marine mammals like dolphins. Thanks
max. |
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I don't know what happened but your remark is now deleted.
Could you re-post? |
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Perhaps pressing the space key caused the delete action? |
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I just commented that tuna mix with sharks in the
sea, however they're caught. This is one of the
reasons I always think of kosher and halal food
regulations as having been conceived by five-year
olds as a game. "No, you're only allowed to eat the
green ones, and only if they've only got one toe." |
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Unless the canned material is submerged in fluid with
appropriate properties osmotic migration and reactive
degradation will occur over time. Food that is canned for
long storage cannot be partially drained because it will
quickly become unpalatable, the top side developing
contrasting chemical properties from the wet side, and
neither better as a result. |
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So WcW how does the "no drain tuna" sell. |
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MwBc - The tuna is only non kosher if it was pressed
together and thus cooked together with non-kosher fish
(sharks or marine mammals) gaining some of the materials
from them in the process, or if the fishing process causes
prolonged suffering to living beings, or if living beings are
being killed for no reason. |
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I have no idea about the rules of Hallal, but watching some
movies and seeing some butchers, it doesn't seem they
share these understandings with us. |
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//The tuna is only non kosher if it was pressed
together and thus cooked together with non-kosher
fish// |
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Yes, but you see, that's the problem. If people
don't
want to eat shark, or are allergic to shark, or just
don't personally like the idea, that's fine. But to
have a little rule book with all this stuff in is,
frankly,
childish. |
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It always reminds me of the Feynman story where
he went to a Jewish seminary (or somesuch) on a
Saturday, and they had a non-Jewish guy whose job
was to push the lift buttons on Saturdays. Why?
Because electricity was fire, and there was a rule
that said "no fires on Saturdays". There are so
many childish things there that it's hard to know
where to start. |
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but a few centuries of word-of-mouth and then you're wondering why it's so important not to eat chalk. |
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At least you're wondering. |
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// if the fishing process causes prolonged suffering to living beings // |
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Watching coarse fishermen hunched under their green umbrellas in the sleety drizzle, along the towpath of a desolate stretch of urban canal rich with propane tanks, refrigerators, plastic bottles and grey-green bergs of polystyrene packaging, attempting to catch small, ugly inedible fish which they then throw back, tends to the view that participation in such inactivity would be acutely painful to any individual of normal sensibilities. |
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// or if living beings are being killed for no reason. // |
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Presumably said coarse fishermen had achieved brain-stem death by the time they bought the umbrella, the combined seat and tackle box, and those stupid bleeping bite alarms. |
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// I have no idea about the rules of Hallal, but watching some movies and seeing some butchers, it doesn't seem they share these understandings with us.. // |
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Which seems odd, since the Qu'ran is effectively a bolt-on extra to the Torah, and both are Abrahamic religions. Presumably there are some extra rules for Muslims that supersede parts of the Hebrew dietary code set out in Leviticus. |
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The can of no drain tuna is just as full of material as the
container of oil or water it simply contains less fluid and
more tuna. The result is more like a tuna biscuit because
the chunked nature of the chipped fish is not preserved,
but the food value per oz, is higher. I would say that no
drain tuna is better for things where the fish will be
blended in with other ingredients, worse where any level of
larger flake or chunk is desired. |
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8th, The Jewish dietary laws, set prior to the industrial
food revolution, call for killing the fish individually and
immediately by hitting it on the head and not having it
suffocate to death. This may sound cruel to extremist Jews
like Gary Yourofsky, but to most people it just shows some
sort of acknowledgment of the necessity of eating living
things and that includes plants, while showing cultural
awareness of the evil involved in it, while reducing it to a
minimum. |
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The industrial food process is full of unnecessary evil and
pain to the animals, and harm to the natural environment. |
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Max, well, are you Jewish? Lets talk about pork. I grew up
reading Charlotte's Web and my first grade reader had this
thing about how pig's are very similar to humans and smart
as well. Also their meet is supposed to taste like ours, and
their skin can be used for human burns. So maybe its not
so silly after all. - and if we're talking about skin, Dr. Arie
Eldad a skin Dr. and former member of the Israeli
parliament was told by a Chinese scientist how they get
skin transplants for westerners in the quantities that they
have, and his written answer was (at the time not seeing
anything morally wrong with it) that it was taken from
prisoners on the death penalty, who were kept alive until
their skin was needed. (This lead to a change in law in
Israel) |
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We're not allowed to eat horses and donkeys either. The
"silly" list includes also marine mammals: whales and
dolphins, rhinos elephants and monkeys including
Orangutans, Chimps and Gorillas. |
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When I was a teenager I learned of the Nabbatteans in the
Negev desert and Edomite transjordan, the people of the
red rock of Petra, who worshiped three gods of statue but
of no image, who's mobile stone altars were Olympian like,
with the main one in the middle for Hartat and then 2nd
place and third. I learned that because they were nomad
with goats, they were forbidden to grow crops like grapes
or farm animals like pigs, that make them live a stable
town's life. So perhaps that's the source of my nation's
traditions. |
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In the near past Israelis - secular Israelis that is, where
proud to abide by a a silly list of flowers that you weren't
allowed to pick, because the were endangered. Visiting
Australia a few years back there was much similar activity
there about the local nature. |
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So you can mock your culture, or you can take it to an
extreme. I prefer to simply embrace the positive sides of
mine, and advance what seem to me to be positive
attitudes to the world. |
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I'll give a link to Mary Midgley's point of view which I find
very compelling. |
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The Jewish religion is far from the literal understandings
of the Torah. So much so, that some extreme-ultra-
orthodox Jews are forbidden to read the bible or
understand it in any way other than how the rabbis
interpret it. |
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Most religious Jews abide to the "Halacha" which is a
developing set of rules throughout the ages said to
originate alongside the original Torah, and according to
historians (many themselves rabbinic scholars) incorporates
much of the Hellenistic Stoic philosophy and outlook,
developed in the 1000 years or so since Alexander the
Great (Called Alexander Makedon in Hebrew) and his
teacher Aristotle met with the Jewish chief temple priest
"Shimon haTzadik" - Simon the Righteous presumably
around the year 326 bc. |
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Anyway, it turns out what I remembered was a video of the
Sikh Jhatka slaughter, who some Sikh's are opposed to, and
in any case not Id el Adha. I can't find the video now but
there was a guy throwing an ax tied to a rope, and
chopping one goats neck after another as it landed in
front of him. |
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In two weeks time it will be Id Al-Adha the festivity of
slaughter. I'm waiting to see the vegans protest in
Jerusalem. Don't worry, there won't be one. Offended
people in our hot region tend to mix up their targets of
slaughter, so people with eyes in their head (and still with
heads on their shoulders) tend to stay away. |
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//The "silly" list includes also marine mammals: whales and dolphins,
rhinos elephants and monkeys including Orangutans, Chimps and
Gorillas.// |
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Yes, all fine. However, it also includes lobster, shrimp and crocodile,
which is silly. I dare say that some of these rules made sense *when they
were written* - seafood spoils easily, and they probably hadn't thought of
eating crocodile. But to be doing the same thing several thousand years
later? Come off it - explain to me why we shouldn't be eating shrimp. |
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Then there's this whole "don't let dairy touch meat" thing. I'm told
originally it was because somebody saw someone boiling veal in milk from
the mother cow, and thought it was pretty tasteless (ethically as well as
gastronomically, presumably). But it's been ballooned into some childish
rule which means you can't have a cheeseburger, and you can't fry
quesadillas in a pan that's been used to fry steak in. I mean - what?? In
what way is this different from Alan Turing's obsession (and I think he was
a great guy but...) that green peas weren't allowed to touch orange
carrots on his plate? |
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//explain to me why we shouldn't be eating shrimp.// |
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Because it's gross, that's why, just like gay sex is gross and interracial
sex is gross, and anything that some people find gross should be
banned by law. It's a fairly straightforward, simple concept, Max,
surely even YOU can follow that kind of logic. |
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Regarding the seminary school with the Gentile button-pusher... It's
even worse in Israel. Richard Dawkins went there and found an
ultraorthadox Jewish company that makes all sorts of cheater
devices, such as mechanically-actuated appliances that get around
the no-electricity rules. They have a phone that basically is always
dialing all the numbers in the address book all the time, and to get it to
call someone you stick a tool pin into a hole by that number and it
interrupts something and allows the call to go through so YOU have
not used any electricity. You actually stopped the flow through a
resistor or something, I don't remember the technical details but yeah,
it was along the same lines as the non-Jew staffer. |
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[21Q] Have you considered running for office in the
US? I would vote for you, and I don't even live there. |
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OK, I Googled the Shabbat Phone, and it's for real.
Moreover, there is an App being developed to allow
Jewish believers to use their smartphone on
Saturdays. |
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One of the technical issues was that the battery
gets warmer when you use a smartphone, and
"causing heat" is equivalent to "using fire", and
therefore not permitted. The solution, apparently,
was to make the app do background computation
to *keep* the battery warm at all times.
Therefore, actually doing something with the App
does not *of itself* cause the battery to become
any warmer. |
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"While the programming to force a load is very
simple, this caused the battery to drain quicker,
necessitating that we provide a way to charge the
phone on Shabbos. This programming was
extremely difficult and caused the phone to crash
as we were manipulation a lot of system code.
While many doubted we could do this to begin
with, we have two expert programmers who were
able to develop code that could manipulate the
Android system to think it was not connected to a
charger." |
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Now, come on, this is (a) taking the piss out of
whatever the original prohibition on "using fire"
was and (b) great stuff for a comedy routine. |
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What happens if you do one of these naughty things, like using the gas cooker to fry scallops and bacon in butter for Saturday breakfast? What are the actual consequences? |
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Is this discord contained in the tuna can? Or is it
printed on the outside? |
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//that green peas weren't allowed to touch orange carrots// well, duh, that's divide by zero stuff. Mixing red raspberries and blueberries is considered sloppy in some circles, as well. |
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//farm animals// ah, I think I get it; thanks for the insight. |
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Why do they oil or water tuna in the first place ? |
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Pertaining to acts, action. |
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//Pertaining to acts, action.// |
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Yes, but is that actual acts and action, or just acting? |
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Max, I have considered running for office actually.
Oddly enough, my racist, welfare-abusing neighbor
says I should run for Governor. She don't know me
very well, do she? |
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Is it an actual election for Governor, or just a last-man-standing
bare knuckle brawl ? |
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// What are the actual consequences? // |
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As we understand it, the consequence is that you are not Jewish. |
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Judaism differs from other religions in that there is no
"acceptance" or "confirmation". To be Jewish means to follow the
precepts set out in the Torah and the Mishna, i.e. to be
"observant". |
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You don't have to go to a synagogue. You just have to follow the
rules. |
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Once the oil rigs get busy destroying the polar region, you'll be able to buy oil-stained fish in ample quantities. |
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Very interesting re Jews not allowing any work to done on a Saturday. What is their definition of "work"? I love it when mad religions (which means ALL religions) try to explain their crazy rules.I particularly like the idea of a series of devices that circumvent these rules. (emergency airbag activated burka anyone?) |
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Burkas are an excellent thing, and should - irrespective of religious or other affiliations- be mandatory for certain individuals, based entirely on aesthetic grounds. |
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//Very interesting re Jews not allowing any work to done
on a Saturday. What is their definition of "work"?// |
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Some examples include "lighting a fire" which has been
defined to include activating any switch. As a result
elevators in predominately Jewish buildings frequently
stop at every floor on Saturdays (or they hire a non-Jew
to
do it for them, see Shabbos goy). This also means they
frequently leave
hotplates on from dusk Friday to dusk Saturday, and this
causes fires on a regular basis. |
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I don't know all of the details, but there are also things
that
they are
allowed to do in the home on a Saturday that they aren't
in public (carrying babies or a cane for instance). So they
came up with "eruvin", basically a wire strung around a
very large area which is then defined as a wall (well many
doorways in a wall that may not exist except for the
supporting poles), making everything inside of it a private
space. These areas can encompass many square miles. |
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I am not making any of this up. Apparently while god is
really
strict about rules, he's just fine with getting rules
lawyered. |
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(a) If jews spend all this time and effort coming up
with loopholes to let them live a normal life, why
bother with the stuff in the first place? |
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(b) Why has nobody decided that lobsters do have
scales (just fused together into a shell) and can
therefore be eaten? |
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//while god is really strict about rules// Is this the same god who used to need goats to have their throats cut in order to make him happy, but now he has moved on and is only happy when it's infidels who have their throats cut? Oh wait a minute - that's two different versions of the one god. I find all of this tiresomely confusing. |
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I'm back here now because of Max. |
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Thoroghly enjoyed each and every remark of each and every
one of you. |
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Your right. All cultures are silly. Why do we wear a tie to an
official party? Why do we cut our hair in a certain way.
Why do we talk with a certain tone and when coming to
another culture change it so as to sound like them. (French
nasals out in the UK, American Rs thrown to the dogs in
Spain, Women lowering their voice's pitch to the accepted
tone of this evening's TV narrator of the day, Arabs avoiding
the "harsh" guttural sounds). We all have eating manners
that are specific to cultures (The Dutch eat bread with
forks, the Egyptians dip their pita into the Humous). Why?
Its a code derived from... well there's always a way to try to
find out the history of fasions and traditions, in the case of
religioun SOMETIMES its easier. |
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So if you are proud to be part of a culture which stands
against human violence and advances the use of our brains
to try and kill less people and less animals even though our
species seems to be programmed to do so, and even if the
tradition probably stemmed from a different culture - The
Greek stoicism, then rather than bickering about its
silliness, we celebrate its successes, such as higiene, said to
be at the root of the Jews not being hit by the black plague
only to be massacred 3 years later for allegedly poisening
the Christians with the baland ritually murdering the
Christians. |
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Bottom line: It's silly but following the lead and traditions is
deep in all living creatures, and many times the deep
religious contemplation and the consolidation of ancient
contradictory texts, many times leads to very interesting
philosophical insights and sometimes even surprisingly
posititve consequences. |
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For some reason gramarly isn't working on my site so
probably tons of stelling mistales. Sorry. |
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Having (very shallowly) looked at the restrictions of the 3 major Ibrahamic religions regarding food on/near the weekends, it simply looks like they were trying to accomodate each other's feast/holy days. Uncharacteristically generous. |
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Also, I think the elevator thing (there's "Sabbath elevators" here, as well) was for not being allowed to operate heavy machinery on the Sabbath, not anything to do with fire. |
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// gramarly isn't working on my site so probably tons of stelling mistales. Sorry. // |
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Never apologize, never explain. |
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Particularly, never apologize - it's a sign of weakness. |
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// was to the effect of not being allowed to operate heavy
machinery on the Sabbath // |
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Silly. If the rabbi's foot got caught in the elevator door
would he wait until Monday to wrench it free? Or holler at
the Shabbos goy to do it? Could the Shabbos goy hold out for
a better price? Silly rabbit. |
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I've been unable to find a maker of tuna in America that doesn't grind up their tuna to mix it with the liquid so they can pretend the liquid is tuna. Even "solid" tuna often has this problem. It makes it particularly hard to drain. |
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//kosher// In my very limited experience Jews go far beyond the religious laws. For example I asked a rabbi at my local temple whether tacos and burritos are acceptable for passover and he said no, even though they are very clearly unleavened bread. It wasn't about following the law, it was about being extra Jewish. |
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Not necessarily. They would need to be kosher. Perhaps tacos and burritos contain milk ? If so, wouldn't that contravene the strictures of "no milk and meat" in Leviticus ? |
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Unless it was a vegetarian filling. |
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//very clearly unleavened bread// |
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Unleavened, as in the bread exists in a non-leavened state. In
a pinch, could you perhaps take normal bread and perform
some emergency deleavening with a hammer? |
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It is forbidden to boil a calf in his mother's milk, but there's no law about consuming milk and meat together in the old texts as far as I know. Jews don't eat milk and meat together though, which is ironic considering all the other lawyering they do with other laws. Anyway it needn't include cheese and the recipe for tortillas does not include milk. Edit: I see [Max] posted something similar already. |
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Probably because of brain evolution, absolutes were needed when there was not much empathy and thought. But as those human facets have grown, more valid grey areas can be opened up, discussed and taken advantage of. |
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// Probably because of brain evolution, absolutes were needed when there was not much empathy and thought. // |
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Human brains have not changed significantly in the last 25,000 years. That's because as a species you haven't changed very much at all in that time. |
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Paleolithic humans are indistinguishable from contemporary ones. This can easily be demonstrated by reference to broadcast media; those in positions of responsibility have no better approach to problems than grunting, howling, and heaving rocks at one another. |
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