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Maybe it would be cool if we could help the monkeys along a
little bit by giving them specific drugs. We could
experiment
with a group of them who are isolated from the other
monkeys in the world. If the group got really smart and
wanted out of their previous boundaries to spread the good
word
well, we would have to try to reason with them. If that
didn't work we might have to kill them to avoid anything
like
'planet of the apes'.
Some Entheogens to choose from...
http://www.erowid.o...pihkal/pihkal.shtml
[Wily Peyote, Sep 09 2010]
...And some more
http://www.erowid.o...tihkal/tihkal.shtml
[Wily Peyote, Sep 09 2010]
The "Drunken Monkey" Hypothesis
http://findarticles...10_113/ai_n8640726/
Monkeys getting stoned out in the wild, for free, without any help from us. [zen_tom, Sep 10 2010]
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I would see monkeys as having mental abilities appropriate to their ecological niche rather than as less intelligent than humans. I don't think that in general the comparison between different species' intelligence is hierarchical. There are wasps which are really good at remembering where their holes are compared to humans, for example. I don't think it's a ladder and what you say reminds me rather of "if humans evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys?" |
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I think this idea is related to the hypothesis that human intelligence (and human brain size/structure) rapidly evolved (over a relatively short 100,000 years) due to our ancestors consuming entheogens. So yes, if you got a group of monkeys and gave them entheogens over a period of 100,000 years it would be interesting to see what traits would evolve. However, on time scales that normal experiments run (optimistically 30 years), I think all you'll get is a bunch of stoned monkeys. |
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If you did that over millenia, i think all that would happen is that you'd get
monkeys better at metabolising and excreting the active principles. |
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// i think all that would happen is that you'd get monkeys better at metabolising and excreting the active principles// |
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How does that make a monkey more fit to survive? (And consequently more fit to pass on its genes.) |
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It would make a monkey which was being forcefed drugs more fit to survive,
because firstly it would be completely addled and unable to interact sensibly
with its environment, and secondly it would probably have brain damage or go
psychotic quite soon unless it was able to clear out the crud from its
bloodstream. Psychotic or tripping monkeys probably aren't very good at
childcare. |
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[daseva] have you been messing with Beany? |
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I agree with you [nineteenthly], if they were force fed entheogens, but I got the impression from [daseva]'s original hypothesis that they were allowed to choose whether to take it: "... If the group got really smart and wanted out of their previous boundaries to spread the good word well, we would have to try to reason with them". |
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Sorry, [daseva], your experiment isn't completely clear to me. Are these monkeys force fed entheogens, or simply allowed to choose? |
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Given the choice, if they perceived a reward from eating them they would
presumably do so, but would it be rewarding to them? What about bad trips? |
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I would want them to have the option, [Wily Peyote]
but yes we
would make little tasty concoctions for them to
chose from. The hope is that the fallout behavior
from being able to conceptualize the existence of a
god would give the participating monkeys further
abilities for food retrieval and natural defense.
Maybe they would finally want to create art and this
might be a further catalyst for cultural evolution. |
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I hate to waste everybodys time ... but there is room for an idea here(!) Maybe [daseva] can clarify when he comes down... |
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I'd like to trip with the great apes, dolphins, whales - (not you, Sigmund!) - macaws, etc. Probably nothing too special about the monkeys... |
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Hey, I'd probably like tripping with you Homo Sapiens! (Notice my handle...) |
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Maybe a Half-Bakery "lets get half-baked" event. I'll bring... |
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Sorry, [jutta], just trippin' |
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Half-baked "magic brownies"? |
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//wanted out of their previous boundaries to spread the good word well, we would have to try to reason with them. If that didn't work we might have to kill them// |
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Would you not be currious to see if it caught on with another group which had no access to enteogens? |
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//we would make little tasty concoctions for them to chose from.// they already have plenty of tasty concoctions to choose from - ripening alcoholic fruits, psychadelic mushrooms, cacti, worms, beetles, toads, flowers and all manner of other entheogens freely available in the wild. To paraphrase [nineteenthly], if the only difference between monkeys and humans was drug consumption, then there wouldn't be any monkeys. They're perfectly capable of getting stoned by themselves without any assistance from us. |
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The rapid 100,000 year evolution thing is interesting though (if it is indeed true) - but is more likely to be due to the far more "mundane" process of sexual selection for intelligence. Smarter = sexier = smarter children = sexier children = even smarter grandchildren etc etc etc - like a Peacock's feathers, only brain-shaped, and providing the ability to do technology really well - to the point that doing technology = sexy = kids who can programme the video recorder. |
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What would happen if the monkeys wanted to set up
their own nations that haphazardly crossed our own
national boundaries? |
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Then we'd be in an Olaf Stapledon, er, "novel". |
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[MB], I guess this is beany like, hasn't been
perfectly well thought out, though I stand that I
haven't tried to incorporate any completely far out
remote esoteric genetically modified possibility in
the hopes of changing or destroying the world. Of
course, rereading the post, I may need to rescind
the statement. |
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[zen_tom], Though there is availability in their
current environment for these drugs, they are far
too distracted from their sustained survival habits
to see benefit from their isolated and
happenstance trips. If we had a little drug
stand with nice fruits and stuff and everything
was free for the taking, maybe they'd really get
carried away with it and start consensualizing
their existence in new ways like contemplating a
god together. Maybe they'd develop a drug trade
in the monkey culture and that might be
interesting,
too. |
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I'm also not past the idea that we may find
monkeys doing this in the wild somewhere one
day. That would be the best case scenario in my
opinion. |
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the idea of a god is almost ubiquitous across
human cultures, from tribal to modern. I think it's
the binary nature of comprehending god (before,
no understanding of god or the universe. after,
the ability to at least comprehend that god and
the universe may be super real), and the amount
of changes that take place due to that newfound
comprehension, that lead to the evolutionary
jump that is referred to by [xaviergisz]. |
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Finally, my guess is that drugs that aided in the (at
least subjectively apparent) comprehension of god
were probably used to catalyze the whole process. |
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I wouldn't say the idea of God was ubiquitous. There are spiritual traditions
where deities are acknowledged but considered irrelevant to spiritual growth at
least, if not actual agnostic cultures, and there are certainly ones where there
is no high god. If the Piraha are not a hoax, and I think they are, there is a
culture without religion too. |
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