h a l f b a k e r yBaker Street Irregulars
add, search, annotate, link, view, overview, recent, by name, random
news, help, about, links, report a problem
browse anonymously,
or get an account
and write.
register,
|
|
|
Please log in.
Before you can vote, you need to register.
Please log in or create an account.
|
everyone knows plants make a living from a little bit of earth, a lot of air n photons
I think bacteria could be developed that use ac fields as an energy source
proton pumps that use atp to move ions to do cytoprocesses could run from ac current applied to the cytomembrane; its just a way to put
pulsatile ion pressure on the proton pumps so they make atpish chemicals rather than use them
note: theres a little humor value there
Its possible that moist remote electrical stations have these bacteria lurking on them now; a new kind of organism to be characterized
the benefit to humans is that engineered as GI tract bacteria electrosynthetic organisms could make food like volatile fatty acids from near area EM fields; I'm thinking a few KW hours or less than a quarters worth of electricity each d
then, with breeder reactors we could just sit around the office all day playing online
electrosynthetic bacteria could completely change the nature of nature creatures that historically ate other creatures could just lay around plumping up
Pyrolithotrophs
Pyrolithotrophs
Similar idea, but these putative critters eat heat. [bungston, Mar 13 2008]
Magnetic bacteria
http://www.sciencea...ata_trunc_sys.shtml
[bungston, Mar 14 2008]
well, at least a virus
http://www.techspot...-of-the-future.html
[theircompetitor, May 14 2012]
[link]
|
| |
I'm getting better at this. I knew it was you from the title on the "recent" page. |
|
| |
I actually think they might be alive on the side of some transfomer |
|
| |
I think a researcher would be keen on finding these |
|
| |
//note: theres a little humor value there//
It's most considerate of you to point out
the humour (nb sp.) in your work. |
|
| |
OK, numbers. You're looking at
something on the order of 100mV
across an ATP-coupled ion transporter
(ie, between the inside and the outside
of the cell). |
|
| |
How do you impose this voltage
gradient (equivalent, incidentally, to
something in excess of 100kV per
metre)? Can you create this with a
field? |
|
| |
well, there are bacteria that crystallize metals from their surroundings |
|
| |
there are conductive polymers |
|
| |
there are funny looking windshield antennas that appear as an array of dots rather than a line |
|
| |
it might be that an oscillating magnetic field could nduce electrical charge at crystallized metal which would be separated with membranes; a crude genetic approach would be putting the makemetalliccrystals gene at the mitochondrial genome to create a place where when mitochondria membranes were made so were metallic crystals |
|
| |
then you try out the oscillating magnetic field to see if it affects the bacteria; if it does you combine breeding n plentiful oscillating magnetism to find bacteria that use electricity |
|
| |
if we look at a part of the neuron structure (linear conductor with myelin surface) stuffed with either conductive polymer or the described metallic crystals you get an antenna; the windshield dot array antennas suggest that cleverness of colony size could compensate for frequency aspects |
|
| |
another fairly weird possibility is that the perimeter of a bacteria with a central region with crystallized metal to pick up EM (kind of like those (o) decorative lightning spheres) would always have a charge differential if the pile of bacterial goop had ground |
|
| |
Oh dear. It was all going so well. I'm
afraid this is back to gibberish again. |
|
| |
All you are asking for is a way to imbue cells with protons so that they don't have to work to do it. Which AC current, last I checked, does not do. |
|
| |
Anyone can invent false logic, but only [treon] can commit to it. |
|
| |
The basic idea of using an applied
voltage to drive biochemistry is OK.
Most things use biochemistry to create
an applied voltage (or at least to move
ions), but there's no reason not to
reverse it. The problem is that all the
details Treon suggests are not thought
out. |
|
| |
This is what is so frustrating about
Treon. I worked with (employed)
someone like this once. They spent all
of their time coming up with sweeping
statements and, consequently, came up
with a few good ones because they
weren't bogged down with the
practicalities. |
|
| |
It's a bit like flying over the desert and
pointing at places saying "oil...oil...oil.."
- you're bound to be right some of the
time, and you can cover a lot of ground
by never stopping to dig. |
|
| |
To have a creature which can turn AC electricity into ATP, it would need to evolve, probably over millions of years. I know humans make AC fields but I thought alternating current was an invention of humanity. Do AC fields exist in nature? |
|
| |
its just possible that there are bacteria that live on electric eels or catfish that might parasitize DC producing organs; the bacteria might be able to use AC as well |
|
| |
wikipedia: though working together the organ transmits a signal of about 10V in amplitude at around 25 Hz |
|
| |
I'm thinking pulsed DC; if there are bacteria that colonize electric eels they make a plausible firstgen electrosynthetic bacteria |
|
| |
Good grief - a Treon idea I can actually give a croissant to! |
|
| |
But here is my AC question again: do AC fields exist in nature? |
|
| |
I could imagine a situation where DC current could be used by an organism: the same as an organism using any other sort of energy. The organism would be situated in a place where charge was travelling to ground, and would offer a pathway energetically favorable such that the charge travelled through the organism - then would make this path slightly less favorable by harnessing the transiting charge to do work by generating ATP. Such an environment would have to be on a rock in a freshwater lake - I am having trouble thinking of places where small DC currents occur in nature outside of an organism. |
|
| |
I don't have time to research it, but it's possible that AC might exist in nature on the side of a swimming fish. Maybe. |
|
| |
But I'm not going to research it, ever, as this is a typical [Treon] "idea". I will, however, present this nice, undulating fishbone for wishful GM. |
|
| |
Really, how is this an "invention"? |
|
| |
All I see is half "WIBGI" half magic, and about a quarter of "it should be this way, so it clearly must be". |
|
| |
Oh, and just to be more pedantic: Why would electrical stations need to be "moist" to harbor these bacteria that you feel are likely to already exist (and therefore, by the way, wouldn't be an invention)? |
|
| |
If you think the area needs to be moist to support life, consider that you are describing an organism which lives off electricity. It seems just as likely for it to require water for its daily operations as any other molecule or element. Why can't it require iron or something more likely for an electronic being? |
|
| |
Alternately, you think the environment has to be moist in order to conduct the electricity to the organism, in which case I would be remiss if I didn't point out that a pool of water around an organism is not likely to conduct electricity to that organism unless that organism is included in a shorter path to ground. |
|
| |
There are plenty of fish that use
electrical pulses as a sense. Typically,
they create brief pulses of electricity (I
don't think any of them do a 50Hz sine
wave), and sense the distortion to the
field caused by nearby objects. |
|
| |
The pulses are generated by
mechanisms similar to those used by
electric eels, though the voltage is
much smaller. |
|
| |
This "electric radar" has evolved
independently at least twice in fish.
Strangely (but truly) some species have
a positive-pulsing front end and others
have a negative-pulsing front end. |
|
| |
Yeah, a perfect sine wave is an artifact of a rotating generator. The chances of hitting that with anything else is slim. Pulsed DC, sawtooth waves, there are many ways to vary a signal. |
|
| |
Sucking power out of an electric field requires some sort of antenna, which has to be a certain length, which is way longer than any bacteria. (Fun fact: A small AM radio will run itself off the signal a large antenna intercepts--but that's not to support this idea, rather to illustrate that you need a big antenna.) |
|
| |
Oddly similar to the premise of this "idea", but not to be taken as an endorsement of it, is seen in the rusting of metals. Two different metals in close contact in seawater could provide an electric potential sufficient and small enough for bacteria to use. That's where to look for electrophages, not in an electric field. |
|
| |
I'm not explaining that any better, but I am going to go look up "rusticles". Those are the weird thingies that grow on the wrecked Titanic. |
|
| |
From something about "Rusticles" : "Bacteria belonging to the
Thiobacillus-Ferrobacillus group possess enzyme systems that transfer
electrons from ferrous iron to oxygen, and this transfer results in ferric
iron, water, and some free energy is used metabolically by the bacteria (Cole
1988)." Which is not an AC field at all, and not electrophagy, just metabolizing iron. |
|
| |
[bacon] - your indirect point is that the conditions which exist to generate an electrical field probably lend themselves to more conventional modes of metabolism. For example, these iron metabolizers, which exist at the junction of aerobic and anaerobic environments - it is these sort of junction environments that probably also sustain small currents. |
|
| |
Thank you, [bungston]. Well put. |
|
| |
I was starting to wonder if I had a point. Reading [Treon] makes my ganglia twitch. |
|
| |
It is very hard to harness EMR to power the chemical reactions that cells use to store enery. Note that while neurons are very capable of utilizing current they do so with ionic gradients. EMR does not cause ionic gradients nor can it be harnessed directly to produce said gradients as walls of cells do not present a barrier to the field. A mechanism, possibly one that functioned on a micromollecular scale as photosyntheseis seems to would be required. As there are no natural sources of EMR in the ranges that you are talking about the mechanism does not exist. The major issue here seems to be wavelength and the optimum size of your antenna molecule. When you get really small scalability gets really important. |
|
| |
I wonder if those magnetic bacteria might be up to something like this. Linked is a paper is which they suggest the magnets are used for compasslike orientation but I am skeptical. Maybe they are making antennae. |
|
| |
Or, if a bacterium contained a piece of metal like this, movement of the magnet should generate a tame current which the bacteria could then use to power their various appliances. |
|
| |
I think that WcW has written the most
considered explanation so far of why this
will be problematic. I don't think magnetic
bacteria will help you. |
|
| |
Actually, hang on. Thought. Need
cigarette. Don't go away. |
|
| |
ATP synthase and ATPases are basically
the same enzyme complex running in
different directions. In the first case,
you use a chemical gradient to turn a
little protein rotor which then cranks
out ATP; in the second, you split ATP to
turn the rotor, which can either pump
something against a concentration
gradient or (in the case of a bacterial
flagellum) just act as a motor. |
|
| |
So, suppose you take a bacterial
flagellum and drive it backwards, what's
it going to do? It's going to work like
an ATP synthase and make ATP - basic
microreversibility. It may not be very
efficient, but evolution won't find it hard
to tweak it, as it has done many times
before. |
|
| |
So, so. You now need some way to
drive rotary motion in a flagellum using
an applied field. This isn't impossible -
just not straightforward. |
|
| |
Incidentally, plenty of work's been done
on ATPases, including forcing them to
run backwards. They're basically
nature's little stepper-motors. |
|
| |
So, not as unfeasible as I'd first
thought. |
|
| |
It runs in to the same problems that trying to make a tweeter reproduce bass has. Amplitude and wavelength are important. |
|
| |
I've noticed antenna made up of dots on windshields; I'm thinking a ()()()()()()() bacterial form could accomplish similar wavelength variant absorption |
|
| |
Does the Yagi antenna design explain why
they always look so serene and all-
knowing? Are they actually receiving
secret messages through an antenna on
their sitar? |
|
| |
I've been looking for an idea like this for quite
awhile: If we could grow bacteria on eletricity,
then why not plants? If we can grow plants on
electricity, they could be used to feed people.
And if they could be used to feed people, they
could be used as food during spaceflight. |
|
| |
Unfortunately I am only a sophomore in high school
and have not had enough biology & organic
chemistry to understand everything that was
written in the idea & the replies, but I know if it
was ever created, I would figure out how to make
use of it. |
|
| |
From what I do understand, bacteria have
structures similar to wires that can conduct
electricity. If bacteria could be genetically
engineered to attach these ti the cells'
mitochondria, maybe modified ones (more GE),
then I see no reason why the same structures
couldn't be applied to plants. |
|
| |
This post is utter nonsense. Please stay in school. We already have a great way of powering plants with light. |
|
| |
Ah but of course with nanomachines you could do spot surgery on the cells and not have to GE them. |
|
| |
Geobacter apparently produces electricity. |
|
| |
Too much like a microbial fuel cell. |
|
| |