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I'm posting this very tentatively and
quietly, and will probably delete it.
It's just this. Since someone raised it a
while ago, I've increasingly noticed the
"swiss cheese" effect. I'm just curious as
to the reasoning behind the idea that
users can delete their accounts and all of
their
annotations in one swell foop.
I can see both sides of the argument, and
have asked myself if I'd expect (or
particularly need) to have the right to
remove all vestiges of myself from this or
any other semi-public site. Do other sites
have similar options?
Even without the "delete account" option, a
user can (and should always be able to)
delete any particular idea or annotation.
But I don't think the "delete all" idea is
good. You've enjoyed the site, other
people have exchanged views with you
and bounced ideas around - I think the
option to remove specific ideas or
annotations is enough.
(?) Halfbakery Heaven
http://web.archive....tp://halfbakery.com
Ah, yes, deleted annotations do go somewhere, at least if they're picked up here before they're deleted.
Ooh, look - all sorts of stuff I don't remember *writing* let alone deleting! [DrCurry, Feb 07 2008]
[link]
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No, most other sites do not offer these options. I find that an outrage, but, hey. |
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Writing is creative work. You're generous enough to exhibit your work here. In exchange for that trust and generosity, you should get as much control over your work as possible; including, most importantly, an easy way to leave if you ever feel that you don't want to be on one site with these other people. You always have the option of just walking away (e.g. like UnaBubba and FarmerJohn did); but if you're so outraged that you just don't want to be anywhere near this site, you should have an easy escape. |
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Yes, that means that people can get angry and do stupid things; I've experimented with making that less likely (and I think the experiment has mostly worked, actually.) |
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Conversely, if I want someone off the site, I don't think I should be allowed to hold on to *any* part of their writing, even if they had the occasional lucid moment. I shouldn't be allowed to cherry-pick a user's conversations, slap their name on a few quotes, then let them not edit what they said. |
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Well, yes, I can see that side of it. On
the other hand, if an author or
journalist decides to go AWOL, they
can't generally recall all the printed
copies. |
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I think the only argument for *not*
allowing immediate global deletion is
that fact that other people have
invested in you (I mean, the writer) by
building on what you've written, and
have formed the community in which
you've (presumably) enjoyed staying.
Pulling the rug out damages what's left
behind. |
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Anway, I see the arguments both ways,
and I guess this topic has been beaten
over the head, skinned, cooked, killed
and eaten enough already. |
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The author or print journalist gets paid by their publishers. I am not paying you. That means that you keep control over your work. |
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The aspect here that I think I like is that copyright is a very blunt concept; what we're really doing is micro-economical attention trading, with sometimes weird mismatches of what both parties think they're getting. That's interesting, and I guess you could fix specifically how much
each contributor to a discussion invests and takes in. But that's a huge can of worms. |
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//micro-economical attention trading// I
may have to go away and think about that
one. But point taken (subject to my
making sure that I understand it). |
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OK, I'm pretty sure I understand it. Point
taken. |
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It would be relatively easy for someone to capture all the information that is published on this site and make it available on a halfbakery mirror site (like the "Way back machine" (aka internet archive) but capturing on a more frequent basis). |
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The only reason someone doesn't already do this is (presumably) because the potential value of such information is considered too small compared with the effort/resources required. |
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So what I'm saying is: the swiss cheese effect could be eliminated if someone could be bothered. |
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I do believe I have the option of leaving this site and leaving behind only those annotations and ideas that I want to leave. It would take some work, but it can be done. At least I am not forced into leaving my words behind if I don't want to. |
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Many old ideas have such gaps in the threads of annotations that you cannot understand what they were about anymore. That is a shame. But it also makes this place more vibrant, more alive as it were. Because what it is about now is the ideas in the present and their annotations. I recall [jutta] saying something to that effect once(is that so?). |
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Eventually I came around to [jutta]'s point of view. |
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And should it really be fell swoop and is swell foop a joke? |
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I wouls also urge you not to delete this idea. I like that you speak your mind and the way you do it. So bun for that. It is a good idea in it's own right even though I do not agree it should be implemented. |
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I don't agree.
I will not delete this. |
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//micro-economical attention trading//
[marked-for-tagline]
Also makes a nice acronym: MEAT. |
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zeno, swell foop is a spoonerism from long, long ago. |
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I agree with the point of view jutta has taken. I, as a willing contributor to this site should maintain my right to remove or let stand any of my ideas of annos as I see fit. The relevance or importance of my contributions notwithstanding, they are my property and they were placed here for the enjoyment of the community at large. |
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Having said that, though, I must emphasize that I am very grateful to those who have departed, either by choice or by fate, and left intact their gifts for us to keep and enjoy. |
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If I am allowed, I would like to nominate the following as [marked-for-tagline]: There is no "i" in halfbakery. |
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I feel that the disappearance of annotations from a user who leaves and the disappearance of all the annotations from their ideas might discourage people from leaving because they would not wish to make the annotations nonsensical or destroy them entirely. If that's so, it may mean that the more conscientious people stay and the less so leave, so it would seem a good idea to leave things as they are. |
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//Pulling the rug out damages what's left behind.//
[MaxwellBuchanan]
Whan you find something particularly piquant, take a clipping, and post it in your own anno with the author's name. Then take action (or is it inaction?) to retain it. |
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As [xaviergisz] mentioned, there are off-site archives. To fill a gap, you can find and annotate part of that slice of swiss cheese. |
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Perhaps an undelete option: "OK, I'm not angry anymore. Can I put all my annotations back in, please?" |
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UB: aw, go on, destroy your account! ;) |
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I've actually done it a couple of times (once by mistake, duh!). I rather regret swiss cheesing some of the older annotation threads, but frankly, my understanding is this site was never meant to be for conversations, however it ended up. |
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But the resulting cleanup benefitted the site, I believe, leaving space for newer members to make a nuisance of, um, name for themselves. |
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I would like to read more about micro-economical attention trading. Jutta, would you (or anyone else who understands what it is) please link up some reading. Yahoo and google were unhelpful. |
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I like the idea of weird mismatches of what each party thinks they are getting. The stuff of romantic comedies! Except for the whole "micro-economical" part, which would surely cut into box office returns if it were part of the title. |
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How about some kind of HB heaven where all the deleted stuff goes after it's died? I'm not suggesting it has any direct connection with this site, but there could be some other program which searches it occasionally and deletes everything which hasn't been deleted then keeps a copy of that, probably via Google or the Wayback Machine. |
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Actually no, i don't like that because it would mean that things were recorded without your knowledge and if you regretted it, it'd be there forever, and it would be sort of happening behind your back, so forget it, but i'm leaving this here because this is actually about deletion. |
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//Yes, that means that people can get angry and do stupid things; I've experimented with making that less likely (and I think the experiment has mostly worked, actually.)// |
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If P.E.T.A. only knew how many ducks were used in the experimental phase... |
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Is that the only way you can get to see the ducks, by the way? Would it blunt their effect to see them in any other way? |
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The ducklings have gone the way of the dodo. (Those of a daintier disposition may imagine that the ducklings have grown up to become drakes and ducks, leading full, resplendent lives at the edge of a peaceful, shady lake, eventually raising ducklings of their own. Ah, the circle of life.) No amount of destroying accounts will get you ducklings.
(However, a simple web image search, I'm sure, will.) |
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don't tempt us with ducks - some of us are weak... |
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//don't tempt us with ducks //
With hoisin and pancakes? |
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...and those very finely shredded spring
onions? |
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Just imagine if one of you deleted your account. This thread would no longer... er... make any... sense... |
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So, what happens now when one leaves in a fit of pique? |
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I'm almost tempted to delete my account now, just to see what happens. |
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//No peeking! There are no ducks!// to be amended to //No piquing! There are no ducques!// |
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That only works if you're from the north of England. |
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I just noticed bigsleep has vanished. what's the story there? |
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////No peeking! There are no ducks!// to
be amended to //No piquing! There are no
ducques!//// |
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No Peking Duck?? Shame.... |
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And yeah, what did happen to Bigsleep? |
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[+] for the "maybe". Both sides are right and this whole idea with annos is a great discussion. One of the best on HB. Thanks again jutta for the site! |
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