h a l f b a k e r yGuitar Hero: 4'33"
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West Bank Spiral Plan
A Simultaneous, Autonomous Occupation of the Holy Land by Israelis and Palestinians | |
The ‘dumb’ real estate problem of the West Bank is that two groups want the same [Holy] land. The political goal is the creation of two viable states, existing side by side in [hopefully] peace. The impossibility of simultaneous occupation has always led to compromise plans for this land, either the
Palestinian state is ‘balkanized’ into disconnected cantons due to the presence of Israeli settlements or security corridors, or the Israelis must vacate the land entirely which allows no presence in the land that was the ancient Kingdom of Israel [the whole reason for reconstituting Israel].
What if the “final” borders for Israel and Palestine created an interlocking spiral form centered on the Holy epicenter of Jerusalem/Al Quds? This would create two parcels of land that were contiguous and ‘whole’.
The Palestinian band would capture all the major population centers; Jenin, Nablus, Ram Allah, Jericho, Hebron, Bethlehem and finally Al Quds. This band would also have a permanent border with Jordan. The Palestinians could travel through their entire State without crossing through Israel [no more road blocks].
The Israeli band would capture major west bank Jewish settlements, IDF bases, a security zone in the Jordan River valley and Dead Sea coast and finally, Jerusalem. This would provide full territorial contiguity of Jewish settlements, Jerusalem and greater Israel. Israeli security concerns would be addressed because in a way the Palestinian band would be surrounded by the Israeli band [and vice versa].
Final Status Issues:
Jerusalem/Al Quds:
Capital of Israel and Palestine.
International nexus zone with all embassies and new United Nations presence
Palestinian Right of Return:
Guaranteed return to Israel or financial settlement. Return offered as like-kind with resident alien status. Nationality is Palestinian.
Jewish Settlements within Palestinian territory:
Guaranteed financial settlement if remaining in Palestine with resident alien status or guaranteed return to Israel offered as like-kind. Nationality is Israeli.
west bank spiral plan
http://westbankspiralplan.blogspot.com/
plan of the spiral west bank [scootie, Dec 12 2009]
[link]
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Sort of like a giant "Yin/Yang"-style map? |
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Not so much a solution of the conflict as a precipitation of
the solution into a concrete "final insolution". |
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Boy, did you just open up a can of worms [scootie]; but your idea seems to be about as good as anyone's... |
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A problem, though, is that it doesn't address the Quraysh Model: Arafat's idea (based upon Mohammed's deception to the Meccans: he made a ten-year truce, than snuck-attacked them two years later) to take every concession offered, and then just conquer Israel by might or population. |
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Also, the Palestinian's "right of return" doesn't address the Iraeli's "right of return". More Jews were forcibly ejected from Arab lands than Arabs from Israel. (I agree with you, though, that there should be a financial settlement: but who pays whom? Isn't it a wash?) |
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It's Interesting to note that the word "Jerusalem" wasn't important enough for Mohammed to mention, even once, in the Koran. He had never been there; and the Arab Muslims didn't even conquer the land Israel is on until 637 AD (the year 15 on the Muslim calender) 5 years after Mohammed died - during the great Islamic "crusade". The famous "night flight" of Mohammed wasn't written down for another 200 years (in the Hadiths), and was plagiarized with only the names changed from a Zoroastrian text. |
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I think the real problem boils down to just six words: "if Israel exists, than Allah doesn't". Therefore, Israel must be destroyed... |
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But, other than that, your idea seems about as plausible as any... |
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Actually I think that everyone who is there should be
offered amisty and resettlement elsewhere. Anybody who
stays should be declared sociopathic and come what may to
them. Also take the nukes away; I wouldn't give an angry
child a knife, why should we let the Isralies have nukes?
The nukes in israel are more a threat to us then those in
North Korea. |
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[WcW]: there are more than a million Arabs (Palestinians) in Israel. Should they be granted amnesty and asked to leave, too? (Or be declared socio-pathic?) |
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//I wouldn't give an angry child a knife...//
If the Israelis are so angry, why don't they fire mortars/rockets back into the Gaza Strip when fired upon? If the Gazan Palestinians had the upper-hand (as Israel does now), and Israel fired mortars at their citizens, what do you think the Gazans would do? Virtually nothing, as Israel often does now; or, completely obliterate Israel? I think we both know the answer... |
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I think that I would rather see my money spent relocating
the people who have the sense to leave then spent proping
up an economy of violence. The house colapses and the
cards fall where they may; IDFC. |
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Wow this site works quickly….
[MaxwellBuchanan ] //Sort of like a giant "Yin/Yang"-style map? //
Yes. Another generator of the idea was the spiral stair at the Vatican in Rome. Entry and exit paths are on separate interlocking helix stairs that never touch or cross [very beautiful]. |
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[WcW ] //final insolution" //
That is a loaded phrase. But if I take your meaning correctly, I agree. |
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[Wily Peyote]//"if Israel exists, then Allah doesn't"//.
I don’t believe this. |
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[Wily Peyote]//… or, completely obliterate Israel? I think we both know the answer.//
I think the answer is that if roles were reversed each side would act the same. |
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[bigsleep]//Its not a geographical problem.//
Exactly, so the geography layout part should be simple, right? It seems to me that the proposed geographic ‘plans’ I see over the years always fail to solve for a crucial aspect of a viable state; territorial contiguity [for both sides]. My spiral idea was that maybe huge compromise or capitulation of one or both sides is not necessary; that the physical requirements for two states side by side on this holy land could be accommodated. |
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The Palestinian buffer idea is good especially since many border zones [such as with Lebanon] have a large Palestinian population and it would be good for a direct border with Lebanon. Israel would still get the crucial west bank areas that I mention in the text. |
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Historically the buffer idea has been in effect, but under Israeli control, for example an IDF controlled Jordan River security zone [also see: the Allon Plan] |
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The threat of attack to Israel now is not so much on land as it was in 1948 or during the other major armed conflicts, it is now from places like Iran and [formerly] Iraq with missile attacks. |
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Another ‘benefit' to the interlocking spirals is that crude missile attacks [or heavan forbid, nuke]on either of the bands could very easily overshoot or undershoot and hit the next ‘friendly’ band; a potential deterrent for an attacker who actually cares for one of the sides. |
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The biggest technical problem with the intertwined spirals is control of the airspace and water resources. Main infrastructure would need to be shared. |
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i bet if you took your average "settler" and forced them to starve and sicken and wait at checkpoints and see "their" "land" used by someone else they would be just as nasty self-righteous and violent. Militant "freedom fighting" Zionists invented suicide bombing circa, 1962. The shoes fit human feet and humans walk in them; you could reshuffle the people and the conflict would be the same. Complicated rationalizations about trans generational justice and "right to a homeland" mean nothing to me. Anyone who cares more about this than they do the future they leave for our children is unethical. I know that's a pretty broad statement but I stand behind it 100% |
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My point of departure is threefold: 1. that the situation in the West Bank is untenable and deteriorating; 2. that both Israelis and Palestinians have profound relationships to the West Bank independent of each other and 3. that, in their conflict, neither side is all wrong or all right; or more precisely, that neither side is so unquestionably more wrong [or right] than the other. |
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It seems to me that to argue that one group should be shipped out to some other place [Arizona] is to pick a ‘winner’ and ignore the significance of this particular place for the ‘loser’. |
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I thought of the ‘inordinate distance’ argument and concluded that it is a minor concession given what we’re discussing here. The travel time now through checkpoints can probably be much longer as well as humiliating and of course dangerous. For example, Nablus is 30 miles north of Jerusalem. In the spiral scenario it would probably be 90 miles. It’s as if you live in north Phoenix [to keep the Arizona reference] and grandma lives in south Tempe. Then [the spiral plan is enacted] and it’s like she moved to Tucson which is a 1 œ hour drive south. No big deal. It might be a nice change to have a nice long drive on the open road [in a peaceful future], very much what would be expected if you lived in Jerusalem, AZ anyway. |
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The secure border issue is a not as intractable as it seems. What the proposed plan does is demarcate spheres of population that already exist. The main border of the West Bank with greater Israel will be similar in length to what it is now [actually the “security fence” that is in place probably increased this length by 50% due to all the ins and outs to capture this settlement and exclude that village, etc]. The interior Israeli bands will contain existing settlements [already open to attack] and the IDF with checkpoints [again, already open to attack]. The Israeli IDF absence on the Palestinian bands and the political restriction for either side to travel accross bands are the changes. The Israelis can step up the patrols and monitor roads and settlements on their bands. Checkpoints into all population centers under their control would remain. |
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Someone asked before who pays? The EU and the US pay and continue to fund it until it is viable. |
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I completely agree that the world would be happier if Israelis and Palestinians were separated but the world would be happiest [and a better place] if the situation was resolved peacefully and fairly. |
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That is your opinion thingy, I disagree with it <EDIT 2009-12-15 -this and some other annos were in response to UnaBubba who seems to have gone bye bye> |
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At the risk of making a very large border indeed, how about going multi-story? Alternate between Israel/Palestine on the top floor, to allow plenty of sunlight to both sides, plus plenty of mining rights etc. Easy travel across the country in straight lines with no check-points (Though you may have to take the occasional escalator). Both sides now get the whole of Jerusalem, and all particularly holy sites can be moved to the appropriate level, or vice-versa. |
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Might cost a bit though.... |
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I don't think the idea is practical due to some of the things mentioned in previous anno's, but I guess that's why it's here. |
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You could possibly live 100' from your post office as the crow flies, but in reality it would be a half mile away. |
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The border between the two countries would be impossible to secure, and I think eventually lead to a single State because of this - maybe that would be good? I'm not sure. |
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I wish they would build an English Channel style Tunnel from Gaza to the West Bank to give port access to the Palestinians, though.
I also wish they would stop trying to blow each other up. |
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yes, clearly a rational, geometrically inspired methodology is the way to solve this problem. |
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[UnaBubba] //..a fundamental shift in attitudes// |
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I agree, but in this ‘thought experiment’, I’m just trying to ‘skip ahead’ to a time of negotiations and posit what a fair final settlement plan would look like [based on my points of departure above]. Any final status agreement/plan will necessarily have a transition period where there will be heightened security risks as it is implemented. If that period is successful, and the plan is viable, it would get more peaceful and the threat of attack less and less likely, that is the goal. A broader war is not the goal; annihilation of one side is not the goal. |
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There is a fundamental human question being decided in the West Bank which is all of our concern and should be considered. We don’t have to wait until both sides have had a fundamental shift in attitude to ponder a possible future disposition of these two peoples. I am assuming there will be negotiations in the future. |
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[MadnessInMyMethod] //how about going multi-story?// |
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I think that crossings between the bands could be under [tunnel] or over [bridge]. This would alleviate the long distances of the bands at strategic points. In fact there is an economic incentive for peace and cooperation between these two states since peaceful band crossings will shorten transportation routes as well as allow trade between states. |
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//I think eventually lead to a single State because of this - maybe that would be good?//. |
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I think it could result in a quasi-single state with open borders, free trade, etc, but both sides still keep there zones. In that way the different birth rates and resultant demographic shifts will be contained within each state. In my scenario, Palestinians in Israel would become Palestinian citizens and permanent resident aliens in Israel. |
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[Zimmy] //I wish they would build an English Channel style Tunnel from Gaza to the West Bank to give port access to the Palastinians..// |
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Great idea. In past plans it has been a road crossing. I also saw a viaduct crossing as well. A port would definitely help viability as well as the connection of Gaza and the West Bank. |
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It would be better for all to declare the entire West Bank to be a Zen Buddhist holy land. |
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[21 Quest ] I’ve answered the excessive driving issue above. What Israel gets is a country that includes a presence in the original lands of Israel that is uncontested and a resolution to the uncertainty that has plagued the country since its inception. Sure they can “take over all of Palestine” whatever that means to you or anyone else [some would argue that that is the case now], but the point of this idea is to solve for both sides and the belief that: “1. that the situation in the West Bank is untenable and deteriorating; 2. that both Israelis and Palestinians have profound relationships to the West Bank independent of each other and 3. that, in their conflict, neither side is all wrong or all right; or more precisely, that neither side is so unquestionably more wrong [or right] than the other.” |
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[Solomon, holding up disputed baby by heels, sword bared] - "So, each of you want a share?" |
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[Mother A] - "No, no, it's got to be spiral cut, like a ham!" |
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[Mother B] - "Yeah, that would be good!" |
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[Solomon, frowning] - "ummm, give me a minnit, that's not how that was supposed to work..." |
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"But WHY daddy? WHY? I LOVE him! |
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"I've told you.. and your mother agrees. He's a Mandelbrot. Now.. no more of this! |
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[lurch] see?, the spiral method has brought about consensus in at least one intractable dispute. |
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