h a l f b a k e r yWhy on earth would you want that many gazelles anyway?
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Basically use fire fighting tools to detonate land mines. Two pieces specifically, the large water dropping planes and truck mounted water cannons. Use the water to trigger the mines to clear fields. After you are done, the water will just dissipate normally.
Seems pretty basic, but I didn't find
anything after a quick search.
I saw a show the other day which stated that bomb disposal people like to use high speed water to distroy bombs because it leaves no shrapnel.
Thanks to [plynthe] for restarting the subject.
EOD response to IEDs
http://www.monmouth...b022007/m05bomb.htm
Water Disruption Charge (about half a page into it) [MikeD, May 24 2008]
RG-31
http://www.defense-...roducts/r/RG-31.htm
Also search for V-shaped hull. [MikeD, May 25 2008]
Beaufort's Dyke
http://news.bbc.co....ci/tech/4032629.stm
What the eye doesn't see ..... [8th of 7, May 25 2008]
A big one ...
http://news.bbc.co..../london/7439249.stm
They turn up all the time ... [8th of 7, Jun 06 2008]
[link]
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Water-powered bomb disrupters are extremely baked.
Why do you think water-bombing would trigger a land-mine? [-]
sp. "destroy", "destruction" |
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what I figured was anything that could provide enough pressure to simulate a footfall would trigger the mine. I know a water cannon can knock down a football lineman, so it should be able to trigger a mine. The plane drops would have to be reconfigured to be a smaller area crushing water drop, instead of the higher altitude wider dispersion tactics used in fire fighting, but either should be able to provide enough impulse to actuate a pressure trigger and any explosions would be dampened by the shear volume of water. I guess this wouldn't work on anything with a pin type pressure switch, but I fugure they would be in less use as they would also be triggered less by the mine's original targets. |
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High pressure water jets are already used to clear surface-lying cluster munitions. |
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The military used ground-pounding steel chains mounted in array on revolving shafts driven by a massive tank forward just to make sure that the strip of land it passes on is totally cleared of mines in a cheap, efficient and effective way. They probably scratch out a very haphazard and costly precision water bombings by their military planes, unless they are dealing with forest fires. |
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I can see it's a great idea, but how many
water powered mines are out there? |
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Since this is my area of expertise (mobility/counter mobility) I would be remiss, not to add to this conversation: |
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Mr.QED, you seem to have a good grasp of physics, so I'll just give you the numbers. |
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Anti-personnel mines : Approx 5cm radius and triggered at approx 30lbs |
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Anti-tank mines : Approx 15cm radius and triggered at approx 300lbs |
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It would, at first, seam to be a good idea but in reality, the biggest problem with mines is that environmental conditions misplace them and clog their triggering devices. After bombarding the mine field with water, you would most likely end up with large mud puddles full of land mines sitting in haphazard positions. |
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Although I could see applications for this, such as for use on seismic triggered mines, mines with anti-handling devices, and proximity fused mines. |
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And as to the //high speed water// used by EOD, they take a small charge of high explosives, surrounded by about a gallon of water, to disrupt charges that need to be forensically exploited. This method usually breaks the device into it's separate components and still leaves finger prints behind. |
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Albeit, searching for ways to make my job safer sounds like bunnage to me. |
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Hydrostatic disruptors are used for IEDD; usually, IED's arent in a rugged casing and can be inerted by the water jet. Not so good for EOD because properly made ordnance mostly has a hard casing, that water won't touch; you'll probably just fling the thing around, and if you're lucky, it'll initiate. |
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Most EOD work involves either (a) pulling the primer/initiator system, then burning the main charge out somewhere in the back end of beyond, or (b) sticking a lump of conformable HE on it, setting a fuse and buggering off. The exceptions tend to be things like grenades which can't easily be dismantled, and are bloody dangerous to get close to for the purposes of setting a charge. |
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Hadn't some people been looking into that australian electric gun idea for shooting through EOD minefields? |
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OK, forget the air drop idea, it was a lemon, but I still think high pressure water has some use. I agree with [rotary] that this is not a fool proof system and that is bad and maybe an 70% effective system is worse than none at all as it leaves a false sense of security. I have seem the military mine clearing tanks with the swinging chains, I am sure that is a better option, but also an option that is available to very few. What I am talking about is a basic system that can be available for very low cost, as long as a water supply is near by, for regular people to detonate mines from a reasonably safe distance. If I may ask, if [MikeD] could also mention the effective range of landmines. |
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I'm trying to figure out the best delivery system, but I think something that takes a fire engine pressure pump placed in the bed of a pickup truck, add in an over sized plow to stop schrapnel and a high front mounted water cannon, could scan the area in front of the truck and detonate or at least discover burried mines by pummeling the area at a reasonably save distance. |
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I don't know maybe the better idea is just an ox harnessed to a rig so he can roll a 55 gallon drum across the ground 30 feet in front of him. |
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I do think that any real use needs to be water at high pressure, low volume and following . |
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Everytime I see IED I cant help but think of IUD. |
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[QED] I seem to recall 50m being stand off for an anti-tank mine in a combat operation. For your vehicle, I would suggest the RG-31. See Link (The accomodates 10 personnel bit is crap) |
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[8th of 7] If done a wee bit of EOD work myself; Tell me, if you will, where you are getting your information? |
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Past experience ... a while ago now, but the basic principles don't change much. However, US and UK procedures are somewhat different; the PIRA campaign did much to hone UK IEDD techniques. Going further back, dealing with all that UXO from the 1940's casts a long shadow. The stuff still turns up on a regular basis in many parts of the UK, particularly during urban redevelopment projects. After immunizing and pulling the fuze, often the filling would be steamed out in place, but now they're generally trundled off to some marshes somewhere and burnt or detonated. The Germans have more of a problem with the RAF kit as the british bombs used pistols instead of fuzes and are much harder to render safe. |
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[8th of 7] Yeah, you talk (type) like you know what you are talking about here. I have been out to Germany once, and was able to see a few left overs from the WW (Miles of concrete "Dragon's Teeth" and a few pill boxes). Are there many war-scars still in the U.K.? One more question, are you running around out here in Iraq aswell? |
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//Are there many war-scars still in the U.K.? //
What, you mean like bomb damage from WWII?
Yes, lots in bomb-damaged stonework in Central London. Lots of "vacant" lots still in suburbia, or filled-in with out-of-place, later houses. Thousands of pillboxes all over the countryside. Tank-traps along rivers and arterial roads. Sixty years is a short time for concrete. |
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Not "scars" .... a few curitosities and landmarks that have escaped redevelopment, like pillboxes, old observation bunkers on the coast. It's not as bad as Belgium and France, where tons of spent shells get ploughed up every year; but dig in major cities and things will show up, even sometimes in rural areas where lost Jerry bomber crews dumped their bombs, or were fooled by decoy targets. Things wash up on beaches, too; in the immedaited post war peiod there was mass sea dumping of unwanted munitions, often done quickly and with very poor supervision; google for "Beaufort's dyke" off the west coast. Mind you it's the Navy that gets to deal with the stuff on the beaches, and who cares about them ? |
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And no, nowhere near you, and hope never to be so again. |
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<later>
//Thousands of pillboxes // |
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A few hundred, now, although much more common in the South and East. One or two are preserved, and the odd command bunker. |
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dragon's teeth in germany are probably from the Cold War, not WW2. |
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Was actually thinking about switching over to the Navy. |
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[Flying Toaster] Am pretty sure these were set up as defense in the last WW. I was on an RUE (Recipricol unit exchange) where I trained with 2 Co out of zweibruken (Sp. ?). My group, apart from earning the German Schützenschnur, and German Airborne wings, were given a tour of some of the key battles in Germany by a German General (whom was a pvt. in WWII). |
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[FT], the Nazis built large numbers of concrete field fortifications to strengthen their defences on the West bank of the Rhine - "Dragon's Teeth" were pretty common. By the time of the Cold War, that sort of fixed defence was pretty much outmoded, although the Bundeswehr did have some positions like that. |
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// thinking about switching over to the Navy // |
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Noooooo, don't do it, they are all very strange and dubious. It comes from all being shut up on a boat for weeks and weeks. They all go mad, but have to pretend not to be ..... |
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There wasn't that much fighting in Germany during WW2; the allies didn't get across the Rhine until the Spring, after Market Garden failed to turn the Northern flank. |
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To see the triumph of human stupidity in all its awesome, sickening, ungilded glory, try visiting Ypres, Verdun, or anywhere in the old Somme battlefields. |
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I consistently read the title as "Water Powered Mime Destruction" |
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Anyways, on-topic; manually laid landmines are generally cleared by the people that set them (and know where they put them); bear in mind that that's western army doctrine; no promises about terrorists or banana-republic militias, etc. |
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Many mines are designed only to fuse in the presence of a large mass of metal. |
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// Water Powered Mime Destruction // |
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Are the mimes water powered, or the destruction mechanism ? Either way, a worthy project, deserving of immediate consideration. |
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I knew a friend that knew a friend that turned a chevy 350 SB into a water pressurizer. Was told it could "cut quarters in half". |
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If the story is true, then it should carve up a mime pretty efficiently. |
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<Off Topic> Looked into Religio Medici. Seems very interesting. Is there a reason it has not been published since 1950? |
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Yes; purely, fashion in literature. |
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is that one of those tomes where it's easier to translate the latin than to read the english ? |
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Don't worry about it, [FT], there are many long words in it and no brightly coloured puctures. Here's some crayons and a 12-page book called See Patch Chase The Ball. Come back when you get to page three, or next month, whichever is sooner. |
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[8th] had to look at a 12c work in latin and its 14c "english" translation; the latin was easier to decipher. |
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