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As far as we know, we are the only really smart species
on
earth. (Yes, OK - dolphins have learned to be at one
with
nature, yada yada. But seriously.) We had a brief period
of overlap with the Neanderthals, who were probably
pretty smart, but now we're all on our own.
So, I was wondering
how long it would take us to make
another intelligent species.
The logical starting point would be chimps or gorillas (or
dolphins), but there's no fun in that. For one thing,
they're
all big and they breed slowly - perhaps more slowly than
is
essential for a clever animal - and these factors will be
bothersome. Also, if we start with chimps, it's cheating
because they're already almost smart, and we'll probably
just wind up with something which is smart in the same
way we are.
So, we should start with mice, which are small, fast-
breeding, amenable and stupid. How long would it take
us
to breed a mouse (or mouse descendent) with
intelligence
comparable to our own?
Well, we can take natural evolution as a baseline.
Evolution went from small, mouseish mammals to
humans
in (very roughly) 100 million years. Can we do better?
First, we need to know what resources natural evolution
used - specifically, the population size. This is
important,
because a larger population will (other things being
equal)
throw up useful mutants faster than a smaller
population.
For most of our history, we humans were small
mammals;
I'm therefore assuming that our ancestor's population
could
have been as high as a billion for much of the time
(becoming much smaller, of course, in the later stages of
evolution and during bottlenecks). So, we can assume
that
natural evolution can go from mouse to man given a
population of 1 billion animals (or less) for 100 million
years.
So, we'll start with 1 billion mice. Assuming that a
mouse
cage is a 20x20x20cm cube (crudely), this means that we
need about 10^13 cubic centimetres of mousery, or a
cube
about 200 metres on a side.
Of course, we will also need all of the mouse-tending
apparatus, including a wide range of intelligence tests,
which will become more challenging as we go along.
Assuming that everything can be automated,
with the cages in huge tiers served by robotic arms, I'm
guessing that a building 200 metres high, 400m wide and
400m long ought to do it. This would be equivalent to
10
of NASAs Vehicle Assembly Building, so it's clearly not
prohibitive.
The building might need to be enlarged in the later
stages
of evolution, but we can worry about that later.
OK, so we have a billion mice. Do we still have to wait
100 million years to get a smart one? By Jove, no!
First of all, we can increase the rate of mutation in the
mice, using either radiation or mutagenising chemicals
in
the food. The natural mutation rate (to the extent of
producing significant phenotypic effects) is probably
pretty
low - perhaps a percent or two (in other words, perhaps
a
percent of all live-born mice have a genetic as opposed
to
developmental anomaly). We can afford to make this at
least ten-fold higher, since mice are prolific and a 10%
mortality isn't a problem as long as they don't have to
compete with wild mice. (Of course, almost all of these
10% of anomalies will be fatal or deleterious - it's the
very
rare beneficial ones that we select for).
So, with a 10-fold higher mutation rate, all other things
being equal, we will get 10-fold faster evolution.
(Pauses
to allow outraged comments - but this is a reasonable
crude approximation.) So, we're down to 10 million
years
to make a smart mouse.
Impatient? Of course we are! So:
We have the advantage of artificial, rather than natural
selection. In the wild, a mouse which is 10% smarter
than
its siblings may have only a 1% advantage in terms of
survival. In all likelihood, it will be eaten or will die of
disease long before it faces a situation where its brains
are
of any help. Indeed, since a brain consumes a lot of
resources, a greater intelligence may even be a handicap
(after all, mice do pretty well, and haven't evolved
intelligence in the wild). In other words, the selective
power for intelligence in the wild is very weak.
But, in our system, we are constantly testing the mice to
detect even modest increases in intelligence. A mouse
which is measurably smarter can be given a 100% chance
of
survival, and can also be bred from intensively, with all
of
its progeny likewise nurtured and propagated.
Therefore,
I think it's reasonable to assume something like at least
100-fold better selection than nature provides (10- to
100-
fold more likelihood of a useful individual being selected
for; 10- to 30-fold faster propagation of that individual's
genes through the population). So now we're down to
100,000 years.
Can we do any better? Well, possibly. For one thing,
nature is short-sighted, and doesn't plan ahead. Perhaps
an individual is born with a skull that fuses later (which
is
good, in terms of allowing for more brain growth in
early
life), but that mutation is selected against in the wild
unless that individual has already evolved the bigger,
longer-growing brain. With artificial selection, we can
pamper and preserve such pre-adaptations, knowing that
they'll be useful later. In other words, we don't need all
of
our mutations to happen in the right order, in the way
that
nature does. A little maths suggests that we might get
an
advantage of maybe 10-fold (or potentially much more)
by
taking advantage of this trick. So we're down to 10,000
years.
Another advantage is that individuals with useful
mutations
can be bred together. In the wild, Useful Mutation A will
not breed with Useful Mutation B until both mutations
have
spread to a respectable fraction of the population. In
our
experiment, where we will cull most individuals and
breed
the few useful ones at each generation, there will be
many
more opportunities for synergistic mutations to meet
eachother. Sexual reproduction is very popular in the
wild,
precisely because it allows this meeting of mutations -
our
experiment will magnify this advantage hugely. It's
probably conservative to say that the selected mating (on
top of the selection of individuals) will give us another
10-
fold advantage, taking us down to 1,000 years. Still a
lot
of mouse-poop to deal with, but getting better.
Finally, there is one more time-saver. In nature, a
bigger
brain has to be very well supported by a host of other
developments. For instance, the body has to be able to
physically and metabolically support the bigger brain
while
still being able to flee from predators. Hands have to be
good enough to make use of the bigger brain to justify
this
cost, and so on. But our mice are pampered, and are
being
selected only for intelligence (plus a minimal ability to
survive and breed). So, they can get away
with
somewhat fewer supporting adaptations than our
ancestors
needed. We might squeeze a two-fold advantage out of
all
this at the very least, getting us down to 500 years.
Of course, as the mice get smarter and have bigger
brains,
it's likely that their generation time will increase. But,
in
starting from our baseline (100Myr) of natural evolution,
this was a factor too, so in a sense it is already allowed
for. However, to be on the safe side, we would perhaps
want to select (on a secondary level) for short generation
times. Of course a bigger brain (and somewhat bigger
body) takes more time to grow, but it needn't be as long
as
a human generation time. In some of the junglier parts
of
Norfolk, generation times can be as short as 13 years for
humans. If we remove the need to be physically capable
of
rearing offspring, I'm pretty sure a species could evolve
with a human-sized brain and a generation time of two
or
three years. All that's needed (in absolute terms) is that
the individual can grow to several times its own
birthweight. (Of course, once we get a smart mouse,
we might then want to breed it for longevity, so that it
has time enough to learn useful things. But that's a
problem for later.)
Now, to stand back for a moment and see if this makes
sense. Well, does it? First, we can look at selective
breeding of things like dogs. (Dogs seem to have more
propensity to variation than most species, but of course
our mice are being mutagenized, so the comparison is
not far-fetched.) We know we can go from generic dog
to pekinese or collie in something like a century of
selective breeding; we can even breed for quite big
changes in intelligence in dogs on this timescale. Our
mice will have a faster generation time, a far, far, far
bigger population from which to select, and will be
selected only for intelligence, so we might expect some
pretty impressive results.
We can also try to do some numbers. From what we
know of genomics, it's likely that something like 10,000
to 100,000 mutations would have to happen to go from
mouse to man (there are many more base-level
differences between mice and men, but almost all of
these are of no relevance). From a billion mice, with
their increased mutation rate (10%) we get 100,000,000
mutations per generation (remember, these are all
mutations with phenotypes, since that's how we decide
our level of mutagenesis). Of these, perhaps one in a
million takes us in the right direction, giving 100 useful
mutations per generation. Given a generation time of,
say, two months (faster to begin with, slower as the
mice get smarter and hence have bigger heads to grow),
this gives us perhaps 300,000 useful mutations arising
over 500 years. Allowing for some wastage (failure to
spot useful mutations, for instance), we're still in the
right ballpark.
So, there you have it. For the cost of 10 Vehicle
Assembly
Buildings and a lot of mouse food, we could have another
intelligent species to chat with in a few centuries. As a
byproduct, the facility will also produce something like
10,000 metric tons of useful, crop-fertilising mouse poop
per _day_, which has to be a good thing. It will also
yield 1 billion mouse bodies per year (at least), which
will be a boon to the pet snake industry. In fact, with a
little coordination and planning, we could run a parallel
program to breed intelligent snakes at almost no
additional cost.
The House of Mouse
http://www.jax.org/ If it happens, it'll be here. [Alterother, Jul 09 2012]
Ubermaus
http://en.wikipedia...iki/%C3%9Cbermensch [hippo, Jul 10 2012]
Uberintelligent Mouse
http://en.wikipedia...ey's_House_of_Mouse We're not so sure what genetic experiment created Goofy, though. [RayfordSteele, Jul 10 2012]
Another one...
http://en.wikipedia..._and_the_Motorcycle A true story. I swear! [RayfordSteele, Jul 10 2012]
Sheena 5 by Stephen Baxter
http://www.vondanmc...Baxter-Sheena5.html The Intelligent Squid Project [AusCan531, Jul 13 2012]
Pinky and The Brain (Sans Pinky)
Pinky_20and_20The_2...in_20(Sans_20Pinky) The Alternative Intelligent Mouse Project [Skewed, Jun 22 2016]
http://blog.science...in-outer-space.html
Instead of auscan531's link which does not function anymore [pashute, Apr 21 2017]
Flowers for Algernon
https://en.wikipedi...lowers_for_Algernon A cautionary tale [8th of 7, Apr 21 2017]
"help me!" "help me!"
https://www.youtube...watch?v=NTZhrwR7CoE [xenzag, Apr 22 2017]
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Annotation:
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First item. Read "Microcosmic God" by Theodore Sturgeon. |
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Second //Can we do better?// Yes. Directed evolution will inherently be more efficient than random. |
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Third //small, fast- breeding// both traits that are contra-indicators for intelligence. It's almost a certainty that breading for intelligence will increase size, increase gestation time, and increase time to physical maturity. It may or may not decrease litter size, but likely would, as the abillity to care for a large number of slower maturing intelligent post-mice would be problematic at best. |
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I met a whale once. Not on one of those whale-watching
tours, either, but a real honest-to-goodness happenstance
meeting wherein a very large whale decided to come and
have a look at me at a very close range. This happened
during a canoe trip across the mouth of the Bay of Fundy,
which is such a foolish and terrifying endeavor that it has
only been done once in recorded history. |
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Somewhere in the split second between realizing that it
was entirely up to the whale whether I lived or died and
the whale's decision that it was okay with him if I went on
living, we looked each other in the eye and I realized that I
had encountered a creature that was at least as intelligent
as myself, but in a form so alien to my own intellect that
there could be no understanding it beyond that point of
mutual acknowledgement. Whenever some self-styled
UFOlogist says 'we are not alone', I think, "no, we're not,
and you're looking in the wrong direction." |
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So, before we go much further with this mouse project, I
think we should probably ask the whales if they'd like to
collaberate. |
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The problem, though, is that you're measuring and
selecting for intelligence by human metrics, which pretty
much invalidates the entire process if you're trying to
develop a new kind of intelligence. Having gone through
the thought experiment, there's almost no point in actually
doing it. |
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That's exactly why I'm suggesting we introduce the whale
intelligence metric. They'll notice things that we don't, and
vice-versa. |
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////small, fast- breeding// both traits that are
contra-indicators for intelligence.// |
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Yes, I know, and I sort of addressed that in the
preantepenultimate paragraph. |
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Natural selection chooses between small, dumb
fast-breeders and big, clever slow-breeders
because that makes sense. But we don't have to.
Nature does it because (a) it takes time to build a
big brain (b) a big brain isn't any use unless it has
time to learn and (c) a big brain needs a big body
to carry it around and defend it. |
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We are largely eliminating (b); we are just
assessing the innate intelligence of these mice as
soon as their brains have mostly finished growing.
You can tell that a baby is smarter than a puppy,
even though neither has learned much. It's not
perfect (a baby chimp is as smart as a baby
human), but it's OK. |
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We are also greatly reducing (c), because we don't
need our mice to be able to run around or defend
themselves, ever. |
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Put it another way: there is no absolute biological
reason why humans could not have evolved to
reproduce at 1 or two years of age. It's just that
the environment makes it impractical for them to
do so, so we've evolved a long generation time. |
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Put it yet another way. A whale starts from a
fertilized egg and, a year later, is born with a brain
that weighs about 15kg and is very functional; a
human brain weighs only 1-2kg. So, there is no
fundamental physical reason why suitable artificial
selection could not produce an intelligent animal
with a generation time of a year or less. |
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//The problem, though, is that you're measuring
and selecting for intelligence by human metrics,
which pretty much invalidates the entire
process// |
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Yes, sure. We are imposing our own prejudices as
to what constitutes intelligence. But that's
inevitable. We choose not to define height or
hairiness as intelligence, for example. When SETI
looks for intelligent life, it imposes all kinds of
necessary prejudices - but it'd still be cool if they
found something. |
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I want
something I can have a conversation with for fun,
so there are all kinds of prejudices there. |
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But, suppose we define "intelligence" as the
ability to score well on a regular IQ test. That still
leaves a lot of scope, and it'd be fun to see what
kind of thing emerged. |
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I would say, in fact, that it is "prejudiced" to say
that any brain which does well on an IQ test would
have to be similar to our own. It would be fun to
see what walked out of the Mouse House - maybe
it'd say hello and go and look for a MacDonalds, or
maybe it would be very, very weird indeed. |
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// whale ... at least as intelligent as myself//
Well, this comes down to a matter of philosophy
in the end, and also relates to [ytk]'s point. |
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The whale is bigger than we are, according to the
way we define bigness. I don't think it's as
intelligent as we are, by the way we define
intelligence. That's just a result of the way we
define intelligence, of course, but we define it in
a way which is relevant to us, because we're doing
the defining. |
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Without wishing to stir up the whole chicken
noodle soup here, perhaps we could replace the
word "intelligence" with something neutral like
"bobbick", where "bobbick" means that we can
converse and mentally interact with something in
a way approximately like we interact with other
people. |
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Put it another way. If we meet aliens that we
think are "intelligent", we expect to be able to
discuss mathematics with them and maybe
connect with them enough to realize how weird
they are. That's the sort of intelligence we're
after in our ubermice. |
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Well, what if you could design some set of conditions
where being a smarter /mouse/ is likely to be an
evolutionary benefit? I'm not sure what those would be,
though. Perhaps some extreme set of circumstances that
are highly unlikely, but theoretically possible to occur in
nature? You might derive such a test by submitting a large
number of mice through randomly generated trials, and
observing which trials have mice succeed at rates
approximating an expected bell curve distribution of
intelligence. |
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//Well, what if you could design some set of
conditions where being a smarter /mouse/ // |
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I'm not sure I follow but, if I understand, you're
suggesting selecting for "being an intelligent
mouse" (with the mice facing sophisticated
mouse-world problems), rather than selecting for
"human" intelligence? |
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If so, why? I don't want mice that are very, very
good at being mice - nor even being very very
good at being mice faced with complex problems. |
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All I want is a smart thing, at the end of the
process. As it happens, a human (with human
intelligence) is _extremely_ good at being an
intelligent mouse: put a piece of cheese inside a
locked box, and a human will figure out how to
open it. But I don't want to evolve something
specifically to solve murine problems (interesting
though that may be). |
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//put a piece of cheese inside a locked box, and a human will figure out how to open it// |
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A really intelligent human will go to the cabinet and get peanut butter, which mice prefer anyway. |
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//Net result : sentient tribble.// Been tried. Went
bad. The Welsh. |
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// perhaps we could replace the word "intelligence" with
something neutral like "bobbick", where "bobbick" means
that we can converse and mentally interact // |
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In that case, I would say that whales are not bobbickable
to
humans. My experience with the whale, if it had taken
conversational form, would have gone something like this: |
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Me: "Hey back atcha. You scared the bloody bejeezus out
of me, by the way." |
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Whale: "Sorry, I didn't mean to do that." |
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Me: "No problem. Say, I can't help but notice that you're
far more intelligent than my species generally believes." |
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Whale: "I'm surprised by how smart you are, as well. Too
bad we can never relate to one another because there's no
basis for comparison between our intellects." |
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Whale: "It was nice meeting you, though." |
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Me: "Likewise, once I got over the shock. You should try
not to sneak up on people. As a species, we're very jumpy.
I think it has something to do with tigers." |
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//I would say that whales are not bobbickal to
humans. My experience with the whale, if it had
taken conversational form, would have gone
something like this// |
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Ah, and there we have the nub of the problem, for
the exchange could not have taken conversational
form. And I think it boils down to more than just
a difference in language. We put a lot of effort,
from time to time, into teaching animals to use
human language, and also into trying to
understand their own language. As far as I can
see, the animals are much less ingenious at
reciprocating, even though it's probably more
important for a whale to talk to us ("Hey, please
stop with the harpoons already!") than it is for us
to talk to the whale. |
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To put it another way, we put a lot more effort
into understanding animals than they do into
understanding us. If that were not the case,
whales would by now be organising human-
watching trips in motorized aquaria. |
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(But kudos and admiration for your cetaceal
experience.) |
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Is it to determine if such a thing /can/ be done? We already know it
can. It's already happened in nature at least once. The genetic
component of the problem is well understood, and we have a pretty
darn good handle on the evolutionary component as well. So having
shown that we certainly can do such a thing, there's no point in
doing it just to see if we can. |
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Or is it simply something to do for the mere sake of achieving an
end? If that's the case, why waste time trying to replicate and
accelerate the natural process when we're practically on the cusp of
being able to accomplish such things via genetic engineering? We
already have the human and mouse genomes mapped, and the
technology is there to splice in the relevant genes. All we'd have to
do is isolate the sections that code for intelligence, and we might
even have an intelligent mouse within our lifetimes. |
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Or is it something to do just for the sake of doing, like building a
airplane from a kit? Well, okay, but I don't know that a pet project
(so to speak) justifies the enormous resource and material cost, not
to mention the ethical issues involved. |
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The only justification I can see for such an undertaking is to produce
an entirely new kind of intelligencesomething which we have
potentially heretofore not even considered to be a form of
intelligence. It would even be questionable if we could achieve
this goal, due to our own biases as to what constitutes intelligence.
But short of that, there has to be a better way to make mice less
dumb. |
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// there's no point in doing it just to see if we
can.// |
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Au contraire! I would love to do this just to see if
we can. |
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//The only justification I can see// I see no
justification whatsoever for doing this. But I am
happy to proceed, like this annotation,
unjustified. |
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Wouldn't you be interested in talking to a
Neanderthal? I would. It wouldn't prove anything,
and in fact its intelligence would be very, very
similar to our own in degree and in kind. But it
would still be cool. An evolved murine
intelligence would solve the problems we set it,
but its underlying intelligence would be, I
suggest, more different than that of a
Neanderthal. |
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Also, it would be interesting (which is enough for
me) to know if other neuroanatomies could
produce intelligence. Do we need all that cortical
pleating, or can a different anatomy produce
intelligence? |
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Also also, we already *know* that intelligence isn't
related closely to brain size (whales don't do
Sudokus ten times faster than we do). So, is
there some arrangement of neurons that packs
intelligence into a very small brain? |
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There are all kinds of interesting questions. Not
useful questions, necessarily, just interesting. Or
maybe just interesting to me. But these are my
damn mice. |
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//Wouldn't you be interested in talking to a
Neanderthal? I would.// |
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I'm sure the Australian consulate would be more than
happy to accommodate you with a tourist visa. |
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Yeah, but I'm not prepared to wear the sheep
costume. |
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//Well there are bits of Neanderthals and
Denisovans in all of us. Quite a bit of interbreeding
going on back then. // Well, there's never been a
bit of a Neanderthal in _me_. |
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[Ubie], [ytk]. [ytk], [Ubie]. |
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// kudos and admiration for your cetaceal experience. // |
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Thanks, [Max]. It definitely ranks among the highlights of
my life. I've written a rather good 2,500-word essay about
it, but so far nobody wants to publish it. I think they see
the name and get all excited, then become very
disappointed when they discover that it's not a piece of
thought-provoking, perspective-challenging modern fiction
where everybody dies at the end. |
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//not a piece of thought-provoking, perspective-
challenging modern fiction where everybody dies at
the end.// Well, they just need to wait then,
surely? |
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(I have never had the privilege of meeting a whale;
the closest I've come is macaques. When they look
you in the eye, you feel looked at.) |
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// Well, they just need to wait then, surely? // |
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Not even that, just look at some of my other work. All of
my stories more or less run along the theme of people
being horrible to each other, but for some reason all of the
literary journals are fighting over that one story. I keep
trying to tell them I've got fresh work, and they're all
saying "No! We want the one that's already been published
twice and isn't nearly as good as your new stuff!" |
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Are the primates at Gibraltar macaques? I've forgotten. It
was a long time ago. I do remember one of them doing
hilariously unpleasant things to the most obnoxious
member of our tour group. Ah, it's good to reminisce... |
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I think the Gibralter monkeys are indeed macaques,
but that's not where I met them. |
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I wouldn't have thought so. It seems far too pedestrian a
destination for one of your stature. |
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This has been thought up before. This should never be done. |
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The end product would be a species intelligent enough to notice its status as a second class citizen. |
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//This has been thought up before.// Doubtless.
Indeed, it may be why we are here. |
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//This should never be done. // There's a
challenge. |
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//a species intelligent enough to notice its status as
a second class citizen// Well, for the first few
thousand years, we ought to be able to convince
them that we're gods. |
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//[Ubie], [ytk]. [ytk], [Ubie].// |
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If only you were here and I had a white glove, [Max]. |
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//If only you were here and I had a white glove,
[Max].// |
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That's a very kind offer, but I already have a butler
who travels with me, [ytk]. |
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The hard limit on mice intelligence is when they become clever enough to escape from [Max]'s experiment. |
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Second item. Read "The Uplift" series by David Brin. |
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I can just see it now, as the mice become more intelligent, so
their human slaves become gradually smaller, their noses and
tails
longer... |
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Also, once they work out how to escape, I worry how these new, intelligent ubermäuse will treat their dimwitted brethren in the outside world. I forsee a rise of mice facism and the enslavement of ordinary mice into a vast, servile rodent underclass. |
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//Directed evolution will inherently be more efficient than random.// |
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Funny how people get so upset at GM food, but not so much this. |
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I was so expecting to see Vernon's name at the end. |
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I think all we really need to do is introduce one to a motorcycle that moves when you say 'bpbpbpbpbpb.' |
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It's a good thing Hitler's experimentalist doctors didn't have more modern technology at their disposal. |
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// It's a good thing Hitler's experimentalist
doctors didn't have more modern technology at
their
disposal.// |
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Does Godwin's Law apply in this case? In any
event,
all we're talking about here is creating a very
intelligent form of a highly prolific and escape-
prone
mammal. I am pretty sure that nothing can
possibly
go wrong. |
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//Funny how people get so upset at GM food, but
not so much this. // I would have put it the
other way around, but yes. On the other hand,
people are a lot less bothered by GM than they
were. And, in any event, the new thing is
Synthetic Biology, which is much more fun than
GM and doesn't have the word "genetic" in it. Or
the word "modified", for that matter. |
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I get kind of irked by (amongst many, many other things, as
[bigs] once accurately noted) the people running around
squawking about genetically modified food. Can't they see
that we've been genetically modifying the fruits,
vegetables, and animals we farm for thousands of years?
How many of the people who think GM corn will bring
about the apocalypse have ever eaten a Pink Lady apple, I
wonder? Just because we're doing it in labs with
microscopes and sequencers and other fancy science stuff
doesn't make it any different than cross-pollenating crops
or putting a large cow and a tasty cow in the same pen,
does it? |
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Rant temporarily suspended pending nature of responses. |
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I do rather laugh at the GM food issue myself. The more relevant issue to me seems to be the impending loss of biodiversity. |
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I'm excited by synthetic biology. |
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//we've been genetically modifying the fruits,
vegetables, and animals we farm for thousands of
years// |
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Ah, but GM crops - they've got, like, DNA in them,
you know? And DNA stands for, well, whatever it
stands for, it's got no oxygen, it's nuclear and it's
an acid, you know? |
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<off topic> Just back from a synthetic biology
meeting, where there is a depressing lack of
irresponsibility. With the rise of biohacking, we
alleged professionals really ought to stop worrying
and start making more stripey things. |
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I think the code of the bakery keeps that one open by default, lest it crash. |
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Oh no! [Max] has just closed the Halfbakery's only
"off topic" tag!!! |
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Hello? Can anyone hear me? Is it back on? |
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Sorry, all I'm getting is static. |
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Oh, good, it's working again. For a minute, it felt like my
role here had been severely diminished. |
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Nnnnope. All I got was something about your newt
roll being minced. |
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//if Europe's population is against it, in a democracy, who
has the right to foist it on them// |
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As much right as they have to foist their views on the rest
of the world. Several African nations have refused to
accept relief shipments of GM food from the U.S., largely
because their European trading partners have threatened to
stop doing business with them if they accept it based on the
flimsy rationale that some of the food /might/ contaminate
their agriculture, rendering it unfit for the nice wealthy
Europeans who can afford to be choosy, collateral damage
be damned. |
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Anyone who opposes genetically modified foods should be
shown pictures of children suffering from kwashiorkor, and
informed that GM food has the potential to practically
eliminate the disease. If you're still aginit, fine, but you
should know what the real cost of your position is. |
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It just occurred to me that, were this project
successful, somebody, somewhere, would try to eat
one. Who knows, smart mouse might even become a
delicacy. |
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I can think of no greater psychological torture than
being intelligent AND delicious. |
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(Double Apologies [ytk], I just couldn't resist) |
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Bite me, [AusCan]. No, really, go ahead! Right here on the
armyou'll see I'm quite tasty. Perhaps with a nice red
wine reduction? It'd be the most useful contribution I've
ever made around here, anyway
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Cephalopods, cetaceans, bears, pigs, most of the
primates... they're all pretty intelligent. Why pick
mice, for heaven's sake? |
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Because they breed like rabbits. |
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I don't think it's ethical to make sentient such a puny creature. They will all end up neurotic little things. |
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Would you really be able to have a conversation with an animal that communicates in squeak-tones? |
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The phrase "screaming heeby-jeebies" comes to mind. |
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The phrase "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
comes to mind. |
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One interesting vector that could be looked into would be successfully identifying the genetic component of attraction and releasing into the wild a breed of mice who based their attraction of mates on intelligence. |
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If this attraction were genetically passed on to child-mice, in addition to the actual intelligence-encouraging genetics, you'd be starting a strain of mice who were both smarter, and also who actively sought out intelligence in future mates, creating a positive feedback look that should result in even faster progression. |
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Such attraction-based feedback-loops are likely responsible for many of the world's most interesting phenotypes and behaviours - including, but not limited to; songbirds, whales, peacocks (and associated peahens) and humans. A converse behavioural link might also be somewhere at the root of how dogs are both sexually attracted to almost anything (legs, sofas, Chihuahuas) and their unusual morphability and proclivity to respond to breeding programs. |
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Sounds like fun, but when all's said and done the answer is still forty two. |
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//Cephalopods, cetaceans, bears, pigs, most of
the primates... they're all pretty intelligent. Why
pick mice, for heaven's sake?// |
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Well, I did address this point, but I hid it by
encoding it in the form of words in the original
post. But briefly: |
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Cephalods: all well and good, but the water would
run out between the bars of the cages. Do try and
think harder. |
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Bears: large, slow-breeding, inedible, need woods. |
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Pigs: mean, smelly. On the plus side, edible. |
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Cetaceans: inconveniently large, inconveniently
long generation time. On the plus side, though,
lots of free whale meat. |
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Primates: mean, slow-breeding, expensive; and
already too close to our own intelligence to be
interesting. |
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//the most useful contribution I've ever made// |
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Nonsense, [ytk]; I've just checked your profile page and found Prank Fonts. *That*'s the most useful contribution you've ever made. It brightened up a very bad day for me. I have added my bun. :) |
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// Bears [] inedible// I believe there are quite a few people who will disagree with that. |
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I was assuming the project would be conducted in
England. Apart from the shortage of bears, most of
the good recipes for bear were lost some time back
in the 1700s. |
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That's because people discovered that there are things that
taste much better than bear, such as horse, possum, or
rancid suet. |
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To be perfectly honest, [Max], I didn't bother
reading
past the first fifty paragraphs of your manifesto. I
was surprised to find it was yours and not
[Vernon]'s,
when I looked for the author tag. |
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Anyway, someone has already done mice as the
most
intelligent species in the universe. I think it was a
children's show? |
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If you want really fast breeding, go for squid or
octopus... up to 100,000 offspring from a single
pairing. They also possess chromatophoric
signalling capability; problem-solving capabilities
and are capable of deceit. |
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The squid one has already been done quite well in a SF
short story which name and author currently escape me. A
good choice though [UB] |
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I think it was a Stephen Baxter novel, [AusCan].
Manifold? Multipoint? Something like that. |
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Well remembered [UB]. It was "Sheena 5" by Stephen Baxter [link] which he later expanded into the Manifold series. The whole story is available to read in the link and is almost exactly what [MB] was proposing only with squid subsituted for mice. |
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Another advantage is that squid are more comfortable in zero gee than meeces. |
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No, I'm pretty busy these days so I mostly just Reed Halfbakery. |
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I think that was the name of the lead character. |
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Yes it was. A recurring character in some of Baxter's stories. |
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I read one of his... twee SciFi. Not too deep, so you
can stand up and take a breath and forget you were
drowning in drivel. |
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late to the party I know.. but I'm feeling bored so I just had to ask |
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did you ever consider cheating a little rather than relying entirely on selective breeding? |
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a little gene splicing with PDE4B, FOXP2 & NR2B perhaps? |
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brain to body size ratio was said to be a good rule of thumb indicator for a species relative intelligence, & the number & complexity of brain folds too.. |
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that gives you a couple of physical markers to aim for (if the premise is sound) as well as your intelligence tests - you could weigh them then extract the brain to count it's wrinkles & weigh it - which is much the same method Cobb uses to breed faster growing chickens with a larger breast meat to body / fat ratio, they kill young birds in those trials so they have to go back & breed the next generation from the best ones siblings that weren't in the trial of course.. but you'd have the luxury of waiting till they'd reproduced before killing your mice |
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a second hand dental x-ray machine (if you could lay your hands on one) might be a useful bit of kit for a project of this sort as well, you could use it to check on cranial size for breeding selection prior to the cull necessitated by any brain weight trials |
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If you can engineer mice smart enough to kill cats, we will fund you ... |
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//a little gene splicing with PDE4B, FOXP2 & NR2B
perhaps? // |
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That'd be cheating. And a slippery slope. You'd end
up just scrapping the mouse genome, replacing it
with a human genome, and ending up with humans.
Lots and lots and lots of humans. |
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If you can engineer humans smart enough to kill cats, we will fund you ... |
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wear rubber soles & just brace yourself against the sides with them before you reach the bottom |
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// You'd end up just scrapping the mouse genome, replacing it with a human genome // |
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I skimmed those articles rather hastily I'll admit & it is your field (certainly not mine.. after all, I'm just your average common or garden pleb).. |
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so I'll take your word for it.. |
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I thought one (PDE4B?) only promoted production of an enzyme that regulated neural activity in some way (sort of overclocking without actually altering the architecture?) - I think one didn't even involve introduction of any foreign DNA, just doubling their own copy of the code (but I could have misread) - one was associated with language as well as better problem solving - one also reduced their risk aversion (they spent less time in dark corners & were less afraid of cats.. apparently) as well as improving their intelligence (as perceived by us.. well, the guys in the lab) |
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I didn't think any of them really altered the genome significantly to human but I'll try to find the articles again & read them more carefully.. see where I went wrong |
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You may be right, and neurogenomics isn't really
my field. But my general point was, if you're going
to start serious genome editing, you'd get faster
results by just doing it wholesale rather than by
tweaking a handful of genes that we think might
be important. And the logical extension of that is
"well, we don't
understand all these genes, but some of them must
be important so let's just throw them all in". |
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If we want an interesting and unexpected result,
we'd do better to select for the result and let
evolution come up with an innovative way to get
there. A lot of in-vitro evolution research is
spoiled by people trying to design rather than
select. |
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// A lot of in-vitro evolution research is spoiled by people trying to design rather than select // |
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gotcha.. it's the random (if I can use that word) element of "how" the mouse genome goes about coding for intelligence (as determined by your selective breeding criteria for "intelligence") that you're after as much as anything.. & the differences in their perceptions (or point of view) & ours that might arise from that |
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I suppose that probably rules out the two physical criteria I suggested as well |
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aside from any of that anecdotal evidence from pigeon fanciers, budgie breeders et al suggests you may only need decades rather than hundreds of years (to reach the intelligence of a five year old say.. at which point you'd probably have to stop as a result of ethical considerations anyway) |
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new fancy breeds are often created & fixed in less than a decade by these guys & they're only breeding with a few cages in a back room rather than doing it on an industrial scale as you propose |
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and with something as fast breeding & fecund as mice in the quantities suggested.. |
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one element you seem to have missed from your calculations is litter size - with one child a birth you only have one chance for a useful mutation, with a litter of six you have six chances - add to that that a human with a useful mutation only produces a handful of children, a mouse in the lab with a useful mutation can be used to produce scores or hundreds (if female) or thousands (if male) |
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and if you select for faster development to breeding maturity, shorter gestation periods & larger litters as well as intelligence the whole thing should go even faster |
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if you want to talk to it you're going to need to select for appropriate palate, tongue & vocal chord structure as well |
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//breed a species // that // evolves quite dramatically during the lifetime of a single individual // |
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that's called cancer Ian.. you either end up with a lump of some sort somewhere or it's fatal.. either way any mutation in any cells won't express as a change in the organism they occur in (other than as a tumour), not unless they occur [very] early in foetal development perhaps |
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which makes it a bit hard to tell if it's a useful one or not |
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what you said.. it's a bit like injecting stem cells from a swan into an adult baboon & hoping it grows wings - not going to happen |
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but I assume you're just being funny there ;P |
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// that's called cancer Ian.. you either end up with a lump
of some sort somewhere or it's fatal.. either way any
mutation in any cells won't express as a change in the
organism they occur in (other than as a tumour), not unless
they occur [very] early in foetal development perhaps // |
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Unless you, using GM (which I'm using here as magic, which is
why this isn't an idea on its own), add a built-in retrovirus to
the organism, allowing it to perform gene therapy on itself. |
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//we could have another intelligent species to chat with in
a few centuries// |
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"So... mouse. What's up?" |
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"Oh you know. Same old same old. Working on my
doctorate, the wife's getting her engineering degree. Try to
get a
little running in the wheel when I get a chance." |
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//we could have another intelligent species to chat with in a few centuries// |
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"In a few centuries, there might be a truly intelligent biological life-form that will enjoy interacting with the silicon-based intelligences that run the planet and now keep selected specimens of biped primates as pets ..." |
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This idea proposes to evolve an intelligent species in only 500 years, rather than 100 million years - an improvement by an impressive factor of 200,000. |
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It seems reasonable to expect, therefore, that the newly evolved mice will be able to evolve an intelligent species of their own in a little under 22 hours, and the next species will appear approximately 400 milliseconds later. |
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// an improvement by an impressive factor of 200,000. // |
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That makes Moore's Law sound decidedly pedestrian... |
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"You want me to read all of this?..... it's long.... very long"
Donald Trump |
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He'll probably just evolve into something with far longer arms, but which is quite incapable of drinking coffee ... |
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Imagines a mouse with a little blob on the end of its tail.
On closer examination that blob turns out to be perfectly
formed human head calling out the words 'help me, help
me'. The words are inaudible against the persistent
squeaking of the busy mouse. (see last link) |
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But how difficult is it going to be to force Jeremy "I'm channeling the spirit of Michael Foot" Corbyn into an unproven, experimental matter transporter ? |
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Aw, let's try it anyway, what harm can it do ? |
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Will this work? My gut instinct says it too linear. |
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//so let's just throw them all in// You're not. The dum
mice with needed gene lines are being killed. I am
imagining that it will take a dum mouse mated with the
proto-proto-intelligent mouse for this to come to fruition. |
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Again nature sets up a self controlling system. |
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Gene transplanting and the more specific gene
engineering might get around this but you almost have to
have future premonition to work out all the gene
interrelationships. |
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Errr, what ? Like, in the future, you know you're going to have a premonition about something ? |
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There is already a word for having a premonition of the past. It's "Remembering". |
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If you want. Remembering the future premonition.
Technically a 'future
premonition' would be a prediction of the future at some
future time. |
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Due to gene to gene to environment interrelationships, it's
probably what is needed. |
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? You've lost me..... I neither made, or intended to imply
any Retard Trump connection. |
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When ever an old idea of Max's pops up I go for the
bun button and find that I'd already hit it when he
first
posted it. |
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Miss ya Max old buddy. You were a brilliant and
creative guy. Wicked sense of humor too. |
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