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I'm not sure this is the right category for Ideas like this one and
the "Nunchaku Walking Stick" idea ... but since the other one
was
here, that's why I'm posting this one here.
According to things I've read, the actual best close-quarters
combat weapon (before guns) is the quarterstaff.
About 2
meters
long (sometimes a little less), they are often used as walking
sticks in many tales. However, the modern trend to be less
obvious in the carrying-about of weapons has lead to significant
dis-use of quarterstaffs. So, Idea:
Modern walking sticks are often only about 1 meter long.
Sometimes they carry a concealed sword. But since the sword
is
not the best weapon to carry around, it seems to me to be more
sensible for the stick to be a wood veneer over a metal core
(perhaps titanium; a titanium tube could weigh about as much
as solid wood, and be lots tougher), of
which part of the core can telescope at need (and lock). Now
you have the
best weapon!
Quarterstaff
http://ejmas.com/jw...t_docherty_0501.htm
FYI [Vernon, Jul 22 2015]
Titanium
http://www.totalmat...iumProperties&LN=EN
FYI [Vernon, Jul 22 2015]
Walking sticks
https://www.google....vDuxgIVAfaACh1YfQVu
FYI. Some of these have built-in shock absorbers and are partially collapsable, and thus resemble the thing in this Idea, but I'm fairly sure their total lengths are generally about 1 meter, maybe a little more. [Vernon, Jul 22 2015]
Extending Baton
https://en.wikipedi...29#Expandable_baton
WKTE [8th of 7, Jul 22 2015]
Reverse implementation: umbrella disguised as Samurai sword.
http://www.cambridg...3-detail/story.html
[MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 22 2015]
Molecular Biologist's Collapsible Quarterstaff
http://i923.photobu...aff_zpsnanipymd.jpg
[MaxwellBuchanan, Jul 22 2015]
That's a knife
https://www.youtube...watch?v=POJtaO2xB_o
As mentioned in an annotation. [Vernon, Jul 22 2015]
Daffy Robin Hood
http://www.b99.tv/video/robin-hood-daffy/
As requested in an annotation. [Vernon, Jul 22 2015]
A gun that could have doubled as a walking stick
data:image/jpeg;bas...TKwbvF+xUVwdFFLH//Z
Related to an annotation. [Vernon, Jul 23 2015]
Samurai sword handle umbrella
http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/b625/
So popular it's out of stock. [21 Quest, Jul 24 2015]
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This would completely bewilderfuse the East Anglian
police, who already have their hands full dealing
with Samurai umbrellas <link>. |
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[8th] I would argue that an expandable baton does not
begin to
have the striking power of a quarter staff, nor the reach.
Most designs also cannot be used in a thrusting attack,
which a staff can. |
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However, I would also argue that neither does any
practical design for a collapsible quarterstaff. A
telescoping design is either significantly heavier or
significantly weaker than the equivalent straight staff
(depending on how much the joints overlap). In addition,
the lack of a single smooth outer surface is going to
degrade the flexibility of a standard staff, since it
wouldn't be feasible to slide the hands along the length in
order to shift grips. |
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As far as whether the quarter staff is actually the best
weapon, that's harder to say. It certainly has it's
advantages, but is weak in formation, is outranged by the
pike or lance, and it's advantages over most other pole
arms is questionable (a quarter staff and a spear are
essentially the same thing, except the spear can do more
damage with one particular move). It definitely has both
a reach and striking power advantage over most swords,
but once again, a well trained swordsman who can dodge
a strike or two is going to do a lot more damage when
they reply. |
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The trick is locate the mass at the ends of the staff. |
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Consider a unit that in the resting state consists of a tube 1000mm long, 30mm o/d, 25mm i.d., made of titanium, and cross-hatched or knurled. |
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Over each end of the tube are slipped two sleeves, each 600mm long, 30.5mm i.d and 35mm o.d, also fabricated in titanium. |
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The sleeves have a steel endcap and a 24.5mm solid steel rod running down from the cap which engages with the 25mm bore of the centre tube. |
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Catches are fitted internally to retain the sleeves securely in the extended position, or loosely in the closed position, permitting rapid deployment. |
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Closed, the device is 1.2m long and has an an attractive woodgrain finish. |
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Extended, the device is 1.8m long with a heavy weight at each end and a knurled grip in the centre. |
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We might make one of these. |
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Any thoughts as regard quarterstaves should open with the required watching of Daffy Duck as Robin Hood, acting out the famous staff battle with Friar Tuck. "Ho! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin!" |
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Youtube cannot be used at this computer I am on. I hope someone will link up this clip. |
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Knurling? Steel endcaps? Tubes? How very...
industrial. |
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MaxCo. has recently introduced its range of
quadruple-helix extending quarterstaffs for the
safety-conscious molecular biologist. |
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Each quarterstaff consists of two main parts
(which, for want of a better term and because we
like consecutive consonants, we can call
eighthstaffs). Each eighthstaff, in turn, is a double
helix consisting of two square-section rods, twining
around each other for one turn. The two rods
composing the eighthstaff terminate in a heavy
bronze knob. |
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The two complete eighthstaffs telescope into
eachother helically so that, when closed, they
form a quadruple helix. A rather cunning latch
mechanism locks them in place when used as a
walking stick, and allows them to extwine to their
full 2m length with a twist. |
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MaxCo. is proud to make these highly exclusive
objects available to all. |
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[8th of 7], I had noted that most walking sticks have
something of a heavy knob at one end. Instead of brass
(heavier but softer than steel) I would choose titanium-
nitride
coated
tungsten, for that brassy/gold look, but with
significantly greater mass and toughness. At the other
end I had
considered something like a switchblade, to be
extended
when the stick is telescoped to staff status. It should be
weight-balanced with the other end, of course, and
therefore also should be tungsten (coating not
necessary).
I do agree with you in the sense that there should only
be
two sizes of tube, for the telescoping action. |
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//other end I had considered something like a
switchblade// |
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If it's below 3 inches, it's technically a legal knife. Just a
knife with a very stout handle. |
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So basically this is like those folding walking-sticks that old ladies carry in their handbags? |
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I have furnished an illustration of the MaxCo.
Molecular Biologist's Collapsible Quarterstaff (third
link). |
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My next project is to arrange quarters for the staff of
a collapsible molecular biologist. |
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are the staff collapsible, or just the Molecular Biologist? |
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Incidentally, I believe that "eighthstaff" is right up
there with "catchphrase" for consecutive consonants.
Given that some keyboard instruments can be
"quarterstrung", I may consider producing an
"eighthstrung" harpsichord simply to up the ante. |
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[bs0u0155], the three-inch legality thing may depend on
the
locale. See the link (although now I'm not talking about a
switchblade type). |
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I will drown out the sound of your puny eighthstrung harpsichord by hammering one of those strengthstruck fairground machines. |
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// See the link// [Vernon], are you developing a
sense of ... humour?? |
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//strengthstruck// is an awesome word. |
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Experiments undertaken with immediately available materials have determined the following; |
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1. The basic design of a tube plus two sleeves is sound. |
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2. The mechanism for the retention of the sleeves in their extended position needs to be extremely robust, reliably preventing movement in either longtitudinal direction. |
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3. Fabrication of a functional prototype will present few problems. |
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4. The diameter can be reduced while retaining effectiveness due to the superior stregth of metal over wood. |
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5. The device is very likely to be highly effective in inflicting severe, painful and disabling injuries on a target. |
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6. The device is definitely highly effective in inflicting severe, painful and disabling injuries on an incautious user. |
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[MaxwellBuchanan], the humorous link simply shows
someone walking around (New York City, as it happens)
with a knife that has a larger blade than 3 inches. So,
the
rule mentioned by [bs0u0155] may depend on the
locale,
as I previously stated. |
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[8th of 7], smaller tubes are more likely to bend.
Although titanium is nice in that it resists staying bent.
Still, there is an "ideal" cylinder diameter for hand-
grasping, and I'm sure that some wooden quarterstaffs
were either too thick or too thin. How titanium tubes
of the best diameter will compare, weight-wise to
wood, remains to be seen. What can you tell us about
that? Thanks in advance! |
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[MechE], if the telescoped stick can lock into that mode
(perhaps as simply as many old-fashioned umbrellas lock),
and if there are only two sizes of tubing in the stick, then
sliding the hands along the staff need not be more
uncomfortable than sliding along an old-fashioned
telescoping car antenna. I can see that a non-sudden and
thus more comfortable change-of-diameter at the "joint"
would show up as a revealing ring around the walking stick,
when it is not in staff mode. That could be a good thing in
terms of a warning.... |
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[bigs], you should post that. |
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// What can you tell us about that? // |
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Oooooh, lots, but then we'd have to kill you .... |
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Interestingly, there is no apparent difference in handling between a solid rod of uniform density, and a perfectly stiff tube of the same diameter with an identical mass at each end, provided the overall mass, length and diameter of both items is the same. |
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It doesn't feel that way; and the math confirms it. |
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Any such system can be reduced to an idealised point mass positioned on a lever arm, giving a moment. It doesn't matter if the mass(es) is/are distributed along the lever arm as long as the sum of the moments is the same. |
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Of course this presumes no air resistance, a frictionless pivot, and all the other useful things that are found in physics textbooks but which are dissapointingly unavailable in what is jokingly referred to as the "real world" ... |
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An interesting interactive museum exhibit would be two externally identical cylinders on a table. One is a solid rod, the other a tube with weighted ends. Visitors have to pick up and handle the cylinders and guess which is which. |
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//Any such system can be reduced to an idealised point
mass positioned on a lever arm// |
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Yes, but the mass of a continuous rod is idealized as a
point mass 2/3rds of the way from the pivot point and
the end of the
staff. The design you suggested is represented by a point
mass at the end of the staff. This will produce a different
rotational inertia. |
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Given a pivot point at the middle of the staff, the
continuous staff is mL^2/6. The 6 is accounting for the
staff being divided in half, so a factor of 1/2 in the
length, and then squared for 1/4. Also embedded in it is
the relatively lower contribution of mass closer to the
center, a factor of 1/3. This gives 1/12, which is then
multiplied by 2 to account
for both ends. |
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The mass at the end of the staff
is ML^2/2, only the staff being divided in half and then
having
two ends. |
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For a pivot point at one end of the staff, the continuous
staff reduces to ML^2/3 (the three is, again the lower
effect of mass closer to the center). The end massed
staff reduces to ML^2/2 (the two, in this case is the fact
that half of the mass is at the pivot point, and thus has
no contribution to rotational inertia). |
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As a result, in both cases, the end massed staff will take
more effort to swing and to recover from a swing. On the
other hand, it should strike a little bit harder as a result. |
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Sword people also talk about "centre of percussion". Is that just rotational inertia as well? |
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It's a function of rotational inertia, but not only rotational
inertia. The center of percussion is the point, for a given
pivot point, where an impact to the object is equally
distributed between rotational and linear forces. |
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In the case of swinging a weapon, this would mean that the
impact produces the least shock at the hands (and probably
the lowest risk of breaking the weapon). |
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This allergic overreaction to anything that may be
dangerous is the greatest danger to freedom that ever
existed. |
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Yes but does it change, depending if it is a tube with weights at 1/3 & 2/3 points, or a solid rod? |
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It is possible to put the weight at a position where the
center of percussion (and/or the moment of inertia)
would be the same for both items for a given pivot point.
But one of the things that makes a staff such an effective
weapon is that it is usable at multiple pivot points
(primarily the end and midpoint, but others are used).
And it is not possible to construct the weighted version
such that either the rotational inertia or the center of
percussion would be consistent for both, let alone any
intermediate points. |
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Actually, wouldn't a gun be better? |
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I'm sure that guns concealed in walking sticks are common enough. |
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Cool. I played around with designing a staff which housed or could become many different martial arts weapons... didn't telescope though. |
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As a timid suggestion may I add that a small concealed
cannister of compressed gas may allow rapid deployment
with the push of a button. |
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What happens to the walking stick handle? A staff with no handle is really hard to use as a walking aid unless you have a loop to put your wrist through to aid retention. |
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"And with that, M'Lud, we submit that the case of the Crown versus Mr. Tindale is proven beyond reasonable doubt ..." |
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// loop to put your wrist through // |
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With a bit of thoughtful design, that could be used as a handy garotte. |
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Does it come with a tennis ball for the end? |
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[oneoffdave], a walking stick can work with a knob-like
handle on the end, instead of a lever-like handle. In this
Idea the knob can become more effective at bashing
something, when at the end of a quarterstaff. |
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//You can’t get the staff these days// |
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By the way, that katana-handled umbrella was
probably ordered from ThinkGeek. Will post a link
shortly. |
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