h a l f b a k e r yProfessional croissant on closed course. Do not attempt.
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As we take advantage of the near-universal horror over Sept. 11 to form a broad-based, near-global effort to isolate, expose, and destroy terrorism using military, intelligence, law enforcement, technological, economic, and political means, I hope one "front" will be opened that I have not yet heard
proposed:
We've been hearing that both suicide and terrorism are condemned by the true tenets of Islam. We've heard, even before Sept. 11 that many leading religious leaders, even in Arab nations, are not comfortable with the more extreme interpretations of the Islamic principles of self-defense that seem to be formulated specifically to justify terrorism. Surely these Islamic religious leaders are even less comfortable with these interpretations today, and perhaps even some of the more aggressive leaders have begun to question them.
So in addition to all the other measures, we should challenge all Islamic religious leaders to publically repudiate the specific fatwas in effect, to publically condemn the idea that terrorism is condoned by the Koran or any legitimate prophet, and to specifically state that 18 hijackers are not now enjoying eternal pleasures in the company of heavenly virgins, but instead suffer the eternal dishonor of having disgraced their faith. Perhaps we could post copies of such denouncements in airports.
Some leaders would demur, but that would not make things worse, and they would demur with the knowledge that so doing would place them on the list of those who support terrorism. Those who are willing to make the denouncements are probably more willing to do so publically now than ever before and perhaps ever again, and the more who do, the more doubt it will put in the mind of any would-be martyr.
The Crusades II?
http://news.bbc.co....1547000/1547892.stm
[sdm, Sep 14 2001, last modified Oct 05 2004]
(??) Red Dawrf: The Last Day
http://freepages.tv...ddwarf/lastday.html
This page contains the quote [Rod's Tiger] was making a refrence to. [Aristotle, Sep 14 2001, last modified Oct 05 2004]
Osama Bin Laden Vidoes
http://www.answers....-of-osama-bin-laden
[quantum_flux, Sep 09 2007]
[link]
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This is not a bad idea but you probably would need to argue this in arabic in various islamic forums. Prehaps some Havard proffessors of law could prepare for it. It would at least show an engagement of the U.S. with Islam. However they would have to persuade all the various parts of the dispersed Islamic faith and find the imam(s) that declared the fatwa. |
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This was one of the problems with Salman Rusdie as the ayatollah that declared the fatwa against him died before it could be lifted. |
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i know from personal experience that getting religious leaders of _any_ faith to agree on something can be quite difficult. still, you get my croissant because this is exactly what is needed at this time. there are verses in the koran (maybe susen can help me with this) that forbid the killing of innocent people. these passages must be reiterated by the various leaders to their followers. the same goes with the other religions. we've already got political leaders instructing the public not to attack the muslim/arab communities (as if that needs to be said), and religious leaders need to do what their title implies: lead. by example. we don't need a holy war right now, or ever. |
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"the same goes with the other religions." |
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Excellent point, mihali. We could use this angle to simultaneously repudiate the putative religious basis for violent actions and attitudes in Ireland and among militantly xenophobic and/or racist "Christian" groups in the U.S. In fact, the government could perhaps coordinate a mass public repudiation among true Christian leaders as a sort of added inducement to skeptical Muslim leaders to join in. |
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Aristotle, I don't really envision that we can persuade imams to rescind their fatwas. I'm merely hoping we can get enough leaders to repudiate that interpretation of the Koran and prophets so that young men and women will begin to question whether they're truly serving Allah or merely being used by a despotic madman. |
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beauxeault: At the moment people have America's attention and even Iran has voiced sympathy. Arguing for a fatwa to be ended in the context of local Islamic beliefs will probably be easier than trying to change those beliefs itself. Most Muslim leaders already have criticised the terrorist actions in an almost unprecidented manner, after all. |
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Thank you, beauxeault. Yours is truly a wonderful sentiment, and my hope is that this will be incorporated into a much larger purging of the ancient faiths. |
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When I begin to see a few kneeling in reverence toward NYC, instead of Mecca, I'll be comforted in the thought that some religion is based on the temporary, rather than the eternal, mysteries of god's love for man. |
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In a sense this is already being baked: this half cooked dough springs to the touch. |
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It sickens me to see that the reporters armed with cameras are knocking on the doors of local mosques and schools with high concentrations of Moslem students, asking them what they think on a personal level, and what Islam says. Most local Islamic leaders are in publicity mode, condemning without reserve these attacks in order to try and curb the vilification of their communities, yet still these reporters percist. <aside>The school my brother works at had to hire security to witness any vandalism, and to keep 'investigative reporters' at bay.</aside> |
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Islamic leaders are making it clear that whatever motivated the terrorists to kill thousands of innocents is very un-Islamic. |
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It's funny you should mention that. Bush has described his anti-terrorist turkey hunt using the word "crusade" [see link]. Freudian slip? |
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This isn't the first, nor will it be the last Crusade in the world of Islam. In last 24 hours, Taliban suggested to Relief workers that they exit the Country immediately, as they could not guarantee their safety. The U.S. has in fact provided humanitarian aid to Afghanistan.
Reason being, there has been a school of thought resurrected which leads a small portion of Sunni Muslims to believe Intifada and fatwa apply in this situation which is of their own doing. Islamic Fundamentalists along with Christians and Atheists regard that school of thought as being Wrong. The small minority of Islamic Radicals which constitute the Rule of Afghanistan which believes that school of thought is Right - again - have control of most of Afghanistan.
In a perfect world according to Reason as most of civilization knows it - humanitarian aid with no strings attached would be possible. However, the Radicals - of which Osama Bin Laden is the Cult Figure or Folk Hero amongst - believe they should have nothing to do with Christians or Jews - those and other Religions are 'dirty' and 'evil' to the Radicals. They want a pure Islam - Hence the flag of Taliban is white. Oddly enough, so is the flag for 'Surrender'. Upon the surrender of various Radicals, perhaps they too will receive the humanitarian aid which so many people desire them to have. |
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Mephista, I think you may be misremembering the quote. [later: see my retraction of the preceding sentence, below] 1 Corinthians 13:13 says, "But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." |
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I'll admit, though, that my correction above is mostly just pedantry. I agree that charity is an excellent expression and indication of this kind of love. And I too would be happy (and not terribly surprised) to see directed military action either coordinated with or followed by directed aid to the affected areas. |
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That will be the case if U.S. learned from Afghanistan vs. Soviet Union war. U.S. took too long to initiate humanitarian efforts in views of Taliban and their ilk. U.S. couldn't really be faulted since Afghanis turned out to be much harder to read than at outset of U.S. involvement in Soviet conflict. Afghanis were thought to be 'easier to read' than other Middle Easterns - so thought the CIA when they initiated contacts. That certainly proved to be the case with Osama Bin Laden in particular. Who knew he was going to have his 'prophecy' though. That's some mighty fine hash he has been privy to. |
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Regarding the temptation to see this as a West v. Islam clash, read this para from last Friday's New York Times:
"As Mr. Peres himself notes, this is not a clash of civilizations — the Muslim world versus the Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish worlds. The real clash today is actually not between civilizations, but within them — between those Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews with a modern and progressive outlook and those with a medieval one. We make a great mistake if we simply write off the Muslim world and fail to understand how many Muslims feel themselves trapped in failing states and look to America as a model and inspiration." |
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Now abideth faith, hope, charity, three; but the greatest of these is charity.
--1. Cor. xiii. 13. |
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One of "charity"'s many meanings is love, in the Christian virtue sense. This meaning is archaic, but when the KJV bible (quoted above) was written, this was its meaning. |
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Thanks for the clarification, jabbers. I rarely consult the KJV, since its errors in translation are reportedly more glaring than later translations (such as those that substitute "love" for the KJV's "charity"), and I was unaware that the KJV used "charity" in this verse. |
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I withdraw my suggestion that Mephista misquoted the Bible. |
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Actually, she did, slightly, and her conclusions about charity are dodgy, but hopefully everyone is one fact wiser now :) |
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Rods Tiger, Actually in Red Dwarf Rimmer was talking about a religion based around a misprint (see link). |
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The Christian virtue love (aka charity) is not exclusive to Christianity, nor does it come with strings. |
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[Mephista]: I fail to see why [thumbwax]'s condemnation of ObL and Taliban should sadden *or* disappoint you. Do you not condemn them? Perhaps you believe that the USA is to blame because if the Taliban have nothing to shoot at, they'll stop shooting. |
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Analogy:
I harbor an equal hatred towards those who have harmed Muslims in the U.S. - just because those people owned a restaurant that served Afghan dishes. Just because a gas station owner is Muslim, though he is not Afghan.
Should I offer safe harbor to those who *target* innocent Muslims? I think not. A few Afghans and/or Muslims have been firebombed, they have had car windows smashed. There have been beatings. There have been lives destroyed. Just because someone is Muslim. That these incidents are rare, is my only happy report.
Should I support and encourage Law Enforcement to bring those guilty into custody? Absolutely. And if those people who destroy Innocent lives place Law Enforcement Officers in peril of life, then I believe Law Enforcement has the right to shoot back. Law Enforcement would have no reason to attempt to detain suspect if suspect had not firebombed restaurant or maimed or killed a Gas Station Owner. Suspect created his own peril. That I believe - and I support Law Enforcement in their efforts to bring those guilty - and those who harbor them - to justice, and if they have to kill suspects, then I support that as well. Mainly, I support those who have been harmed by the callous acts - and will do so to the best of my donating ability, let alone in simple acts of kindness.| — | thumbwax,
Sep 20 2001, last modified Sep 21 2001 |
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Ah how nice it is to be able to get on the net and find intelligent discussion. Almost everyone here in NZ seems happy to disengage their brains and think whatever the news anchor says. |
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I think the main problem in the world is people. People twist whatever religious faith they have to fit in with what they want to do. This doesn't mean that the faith is wrong, just the people. |
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If "Christians" were Christians and "Muslims" were Muslims things would look a lot different. But then that's what you guys just said. |
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maybe we should get religious leaders of multiple faiths to make a joint declaration or a series of linked declarations on the subject. I get the image of the Band Aid and We are the world fundraising concert in my head |
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Well, it's getting about that time again.... 6 years after this post.... that Osama Bin Laden is making another video where he is threatening the American public again! I don't think that Osama will ever ask for forgiveness from the American people, and as far as I can tell from the Sept. 7, 2007 video, he still regaurds himself as a great Islamic leader in those parts of the middle east. I would think that by now one of the "true" Islamic leaders ought to stand up and hand this "sinbag" over to the American authorities so that he can face the death penalty on American soil from our own justice legal system. That is, if we could even find an Islamic jury in America to convict his ass. |
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Cheer up, Mr [flux]. It seems the vain old fantasist has taken to dyeing his beard black to disguise his declining vigour. All we have to do now is wait 'til he checks into a Hollywood clinic to have something done about those wrinkles, and we've got him. |
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<edit> removed flippant retort, in the interests of avoiding flame-war </edit> |
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