h a l f b a k e r yWhat's a nice idea like yours doing in a place like this?
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A solar furnace can easily reach the thermolysis temperature of water. So by injecting water vapour into the target area, Hydrogen and Oxygen are separated.
The trouble is, as soon as the temperature falls, the gases recombine back to water.
Now it is well known, to those that know, that Oxygen
is Paramagnetic (attracted to magnetic fields), and Hydrogen is Diamagnetic (repelled by magnetic fields). My idea is to pass the hot gas through a strong magnetic field to separate the gases, and prevent recombination.
Hydrogen from Solar Furnace
http://adsabs.harva...pe=HTML&format=
Sounds awful similar to me [jhomrighaus, Mar 29 2006]
Again
http://www.hydrogen...portation_needs.pdf
Comparing processes [jhomrighaus, Mar 29 2006]
Wont Work
http://www.ee.surre...op/advice/coils/mu/
Heres why its not feasible [jhomrighaus, Mar 29 2006]
Plasma saber discussion
http://www.exn.ca/s...ars/plasmasaber.cfm
Some basic info about plasmas [Ling, Mar 31 2006]
[link]
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I think, but Im not positive that you are operating on a negative energy budget with this approach(ie more energy used than potentially gained and less efficient than other processes) Using the Heat to generate Electricity to under take Electrolysis of the water is probably much more efficient approach. Also see links. The effect that you are hoping to use is infintesimle and at most may cause the gas molecules to align with the field but will not pull them away from one another, especially at the high heat levels used here. in conventional Electrolysis the gases are generated independently at the electrodes, here its all just one big mass. |
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[jhomrighaus], I don't see anyone using magnetic separation in your links... |
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About the 'won't work':
Yes, the effect is very weak for Hydrogen and Oxygen, but at 2000-3000C: will it be a gas, or individual atoms? An individual hydrogen atom will have a much stronger magnetic moment. I have searched, but have not seen any reference for the magnetic properties at these high temperatures.
One thing that is not good, is that the speed of the atoms obviously gets faster as things get hotter, thereby making magnetic separation more difficult. |
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hence why it I dont think it would work as in the attached links. At 2000 degrees the brownian motion, I would expect to completely eliminate any potential for magnetic separation. Im not really sure but at those temperatures you may be moving towards a plasma state which changes things even more. My point was that the amount of power required to generate the magnetic field would be huge. Using steam generated by heating the water to generate DC current would yield a much more efficient process(as in the links), would allow for ready seperation of Hydrogen and Oxygen(due to simple seperation) and would have the added benfits of not having to contain such intense heats and presures. |
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Its an interesting idea but I just dont see anything that says it would be feasible. I had said it was baked but didnt bone it. I'm just sitting on the fence wondering if it has merit. Anyone else know anything about the properties of Plasmas? |
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All points well taken. By the way, I was initially thinking along the lines that the process takes place using permanent magnets, and ambient pressure.
My vision is a stream of vapour which is thermolysed (?) and travels through a magnetic field towards a knife blade divider. Perhaps a centrifugal effect could also be utilised, but that's another idea. |
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I wonder if you could react away the oxygen atoms - for example, onto iron. It would then be unavailable for reaction later when things cooled off. That would leave the hydrogen loose. |
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the problem is any furnace, according to the laws of thermodynamics, would have to use more energy in the separation of the hydrogen than could be gained from the hydrogen. Also, bugston, hydrogen has 1 electron, so it can react with any element, pretty much.(except noble gases) I see you put a lot of thought into this, but it just isn't possible. |
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also,(ling) you can't just split molecules with a knife blade, its not that simple. |
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You can, however, press the [edit] button and alter your annos - it is that simple :) |
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Back on topic, I'm with [jh] in suggesting that brownian motion is going to obliterate the effects of the magnetic field, unless the field is extremely strong. |
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[craziness], edit: I just realised why there are complaints about not getting any thermodynamic advantage. The point of the exercise is to produce Hydrogen that can be used elsewhere (for example, a vehicle). |
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I'm not sure I got the point with the knife blade... |
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I just added a link about plasmas. It seems that Hydrogen turns into a plasma at about 4000C (pressure dependant: lower pressure means lower temperature). A plasma can be manipulated by magnetic fields quite easily. |
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But the Plasma would be a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen and i am positive that somewhere between Gas and Plasma is the Ignition Temperature of Hydrogen and Oxygen mixture. |
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[craziness] - of course the furnace will use more energy. [Ling] is much more subtle with free energy schemes. The point is to generate hydrogren with solar energy which would otherwise be wasted warming the earth. |
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To cut through the molecular bond between hydrogen and oxygen, [Ling] did intend to use a special magnetic knife blade. It vibrates! Watch out! |
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This sounds like one of Gianni Dotto's ideas, but more comprehensible. |
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