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This idea is already 3/4 baked by me. I'm acctually just waiting on a few parts :). I just wanted to know what the community would think about it.
I took a (hilsch) vortex generator.
Basically what it does is it generates instant cold air up to -45F. WITH NO MOVING PARTS
I bought a 11gallon air
tank and a small compressor i'm that i'm going to try to spin off one f the back wheels. ( its really small btw, about 19 oz., and the tank weighs maybe 15lbs )
The mini compressor gets turned by the back wheel and slowly turns and pumps air at variable rates charging the tank.
Then at the flip of a switch, I turn on the air flow and the vortex generator (hooked up before the air filter due to impurites from the tank ). air colder then your able to put your hand to for more then a second gets shot into the intake.
The 'stream' of cold air lasts about 40-50 seconds from the tank. I've tried it already. My thought is that air this cold would do wonders for the car. &since it uses your brake enertia to charge. IT saves at least some of that wasted energy.
another tank would double the length of time. and only cost 15lbs more.
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The only downs i've found so far is that the smaller the compressor the longer it takes to charge the 11gal 150psi tank.
The bigger the compressor, the LOUDER it is but it charges faster.
That and the little vortex tube alone costs $150-200. But i with a stroke of luck: ebayed the whole $300 kit for $100.
Please share your thoughts w/me.
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So you are trying to cool your engine with this or the car? |
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I was under the impression this was being used as forced induction system, to force cold air to the intake manifold of the internal combustion engine for improved performance. |
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MadeInCA, thanks for the education. I never knew about these - how strange they are! I noted that the output on the cold side could be as low as -40C, and the hot side in excess of 100C. I wonder if you could put some end to end, and feed the output of one into the input of another etc. to get really cold air. |
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//the output is at ambient pressure// if this is the case, why does the air flow out? Maybe the pressure is substantially reduced, but not at ambient. I was thinking that maybe the pressure drop could be balanced across two systems with the advantage that the second system is fed with really cold air to begin with. |
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While having the air cold helps to increase the density, you'd also need to have a large flow.. a large flow of hot air (for example from a supercharger) provides more oxygen than a small amount of cold air. I'm not being very subjective here, but basicaly - how much cold air flow would you get from this thing? Would it give any significant performance gains? |
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A vortex generator doesn’t just generate cold air, it also generates hot air (the heat has to go somewhere). It generally puts out quite a bit more hot air, which is all wasted in this case. So you can expect the overall performance to go down. |
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MadeInCA, I'm guessing that you meant "generate Air colder then a intercooler" rather than "generate Air colder then a turbo charger". |
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[ling]: Using two systems and running one off the hot air from the other wouldnt be efficient.
The heat made from the already hot air side would get even hotter as it entered the air tank as gases heat up as their compressed. |
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[Pie] first off its not ' a small amount of cold air'.
its a respectively fair volumed amount FKIN COLD air.
its also LIGHTER then a supercharger. more efficient since no moving parts and basically REUSED energy. |
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the vortex tubes' max efficiency comes from a cold fraction of %80. ( hot air is only %20 ). |
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[idischler]: " It generally puts out quite a bit more hot air, which is all wasted in this case. So you can expect the overall performance to go down."
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No, think thermocouplers.
A nice system to gather all those would turn SOME (not all ) of that waste heat back to electricity.
I'm just about ready to cut a hole in my hood and put in aluminum plates with peltiers in between. |
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The heat from the engine plus the cold air from outside could be used to make current. :) |
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[BJS]: no, the air from the turbo can not match the temp from the vortex generator. |
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[MadeInCA], I think you misunderstand my comment. I meant feed the cold output of one system into the input of the second system, to get really, really cold air out of the second one. The pressure drop would be shared across the two systems. So it's:
Air tank -> HVG1 cold -> HVG2 fkin cold |
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This is very interesting.
THe thought hasn't crossed me... |
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I can only guess at what might happen.
Maybe the temp will remain the same.
I think due to the air moving at 1million(000,000)/rpm
the friction is what causes the heat. |
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The vortex begins seperating the air after its reaches the bottom of the vortex and starts spinning out. |
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But i can't get ahold of another vortex tube at the moment. this project has already surpassed its funding :). Perhaps someone else here can reason it out for us. |
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I did a jimmy hook up to my car for sound testing...
i stuck in the cold pipe into a clear tube that was hooked up to the intake... The engine did indeed make a more powerful noise....
But the plastic hose froze and started cracking. |
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I couldnt run the car cause i had to manually hold up the tube and my friend hit the gas in park =/ . I'm waiting on some tubes that i had to replace... Then i'll post my results. |
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Might take a few weeks... |
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I haven't read about these things in 20 years. I know they're out there, usually as mechanical or electrical cabinet coolers. Grainger carries them. |
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At first I thought you were trying to have this thing feed the engine exclusively. Now I see you're just trying to chill the incoming air. Hmm. |
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Can't see it. A properly engineered supercharger would weigh less and work better than your concept. Of course this thing will actually cool the charge below ambient, but when the piddlin' small stream of cooled air combines with the comparatively enormous charge from the induction system, I don't think it'll make enough of a difference to warrant all the work. And a supercharger will keep on working, no recharge time required. |
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Your vortex concept might be a nice refrigerant-free alternative for air conditioning, though. If you can make that work, I would consider retrofitting that into my 20-yr-old truck, especially since it's right after I've stopped for traffic lights that I really would like having AC come on. |
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Well you know, every 40 degrees you lower intake temp accounts for a 4-6% increase in power... How can I get me one of these? |
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