h a l f b a k e r yIdea vs. Ego
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Quite a simple idea: by replacing the air in bubble wrap with helium, the packages seem lighter when you put them on scales, and so are cheaper to send!
For [georgie]
http://www.newscien...nswers/528gases.jsp
[mighty_cheese, Feb 20 2002]
[link]
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And you can shove the bubble wrap in your mouth, burst the bubbles and make like Donald and Davie Stott. |
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It's mail fraud, but I like it. |
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well they're the ones who went with the weight instead of volume pricing so I say abuse away. |
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Any killjoys know the relative densities of air and helium and have a postal prices chart? Also, I believe the postal service has a maximum size limit on parcels. |
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I don't know, but in Canada all our couriers and Canada Post go with cubic weight. Ship an empty 2 cubic foot box and you still pay for 20 pound by ground or 30 by air. This is why we hate it when people fill up the extra large box with all that popcorn stuff. costs us a fortune. |
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Of course, you would have to solve the problem of the helium diffusing through the bubble wrap. |
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See
http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/answers/528gases.jsp. |
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The bubble wrap would have to be "helium-tight" to ensure that the bubbles do not deflate. If they do, then Grandma's mail-order limited-edition Elvis china plate is toast! |
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My vote is the only one that counts here. |
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Your moment of glory, Helium? |
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Would this be mail fraud? I think not. If the postage is calculated by weight than weight is all that matters, no? |
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[Admin: georgie, use the [link] under the idea's text to create hyperlinks.] |
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As long as you don't lose the helium (as balloons do too quickly), I don't think it IS mail fraud. If it weighs less on the scales, it's also lighter for the mailman to carry. |
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You're going to need intense amounts of helium to make any noticeable difference, though, aren't you? I can't imagine the amount you could squeeze into bubble wrap pillows is going have more than a negligible effect on the weight of a package. |
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I went and asked a couple of posties that I know. They said "I don't care" and went back to their pints. So it's not mail fraud, but it may be unacceptable for the more morally upstanding among us. |
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Good point. In my defence, optimism can make you look stupid but cynicism always makes you look cynical. |
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and pessimism makes you look wrinkled |
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calum, I like it. Quote or yours? |
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Percy, you need to do the math of how much weight you'd actually save in a typical package. |
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Would it be even 0.001%? My guess is that it'd cost immensely more to buy special helium bubble wrap that can contain the gas, than what you'd ever save in shipping rates. |
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What you need here is hydrogen bubble wrap. Hydrogen is much cheaper to make, and it is about half as dense as Heluim. You could have special bubble wrap that mixes H2SO4 with metal shavings so the H2 gas is generated right on the spot (don't have to worry as much about leakage). Best part is, when you want to unwrap the package, you just touch a match to the outside and *pouf* the wrapping's gone. |
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Hence the name dangerousdan... |
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Surely if we want the bulle wrap to be light we could just fill the bubbles with a vacume. Plus vacume is free. And Yes I've spelt Vacume wrong, but it's too late at night to matter. |
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Also, not only would this not be fraud, I doubt the post office would comlpain if you make packages lighter... the difference in weight is unlikly to shift the packages weight/price band noticably but will save them a fraction. But then, a fraction of the weight of 4 billion packages is quite a bit. |
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if mail is charged by wieght and the pakage floats does the post office pay you money? |
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CasaLoco, you've failed to spot the fatal flaw in your plan - if you create a vacuum, you don't have a bubble, do you?
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You do if you make the bubbles from rigid stainless steel. |
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[goff] You failed to spot that I was being sarcastic. You can't "fill" anything with a vacume cos theres nothing there. |
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Great idea, the best benefit for me would be not having to pick up and dispose of the discarded wrapping that comes with parcels-you can now just leave it on the ceiling |
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Good point angel. Or may be cast iron?? |
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Sadly I'm fairly sure it's illegal to send hydrogen through the post. The same stricture probably applies to anti-matter. The best way to save money is to not wrap or package things, but this seems to be baked by several mail order companies. |
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// You failed to spot that I was being sarcastic. You can't "fill" anything with a vacume cos theres nothing there. // |
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No offence, CL, but when you use words like "vacume", the distinction of sarcasm remains unclear. |
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georgie, I think that it is my own. But then again, I can't remember having had an original thought before. |
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I've always wondered: If I pack a large helium balloon in a box for mailing, and the box floats (has negative weight,) does that mean the postal service owes me money for shipping? |
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May I also suggest replacing the air in common styrofoam packing peanuts with helium. The trapped gas would dissapate much more slowly. Plus there is the fun feature of opening a package and having all of the packing peanuts float to the ceiling. |
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Instead of bubble wrap, the big new thing seems to be plastic pillows full of air, a few inches long, which come in strips and are used to pad out half-full boxes. Perfect for gas-related shennanigans. |
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Approximately one-gazillion thousand people have comment (or perhaps three) on the price of a "negatively-weighted" item. I know people outside of the US pay by volume, so this clearly doesn't apply.
When you pay for the shipping, you're paying for more then the weight added to the post's load. You're paying for the space, as well. In most areas, the few 'standard' box sizes help rectify this, as they know how many of each size are permissable for flight.
Sincerely, |
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Not any more, I just voted for the Left Handed Cake Fork. Sorry, but my son is left-handed. And he likes cake. A lot. |
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Croissant for originality. But its too expensive to work though |
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oooh what an interesting idea. oohhhh! |
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Before this goes any further... I know there are minds present who have the capability to determine if the volume of helium which could be trapped in a typical sheet of bubble wrap would be at all significant, at all capable of making the slightest difference in the weight of the package. |
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Why hasn't anyone done this yet? It's got 31 plus votes and we have no way of knowing if it would work or not. There are several other helium related ideas here (eg. chocolate covered nitrogen, featherweight furniture, anti-gravity bra, etc.) where the anno discussiond point out that helium would be ineffectual for the purpose described therein. |
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I think the same is true of this idea. Picture a typical sized shipping box, maybe 18x18x12 (inches). Into such box you would be lucky if you could get three, possibly four average size helium filled balloons. These balloons are barely going to impact the weight of the box alone - and they take up most of the space inside it. |
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So, using bubble wrap, the amount of helium used surely cannot be much more than the previously mentioned balloons contain. The bubbles would be much smaller and considerably less 'pressurized'. Yes they would fill and fit into spaces the balloons cannot, but at the very best the differences only offset each other. Hence, I see you could have a box entirely filled with nothing but helium filled bubble wrap and the difference, if any, it makes in the shipping weight could probably be measured in milligrams. |
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At "standard temperature and pressure" [0deg C at average atmospheric pressure at mean sea level] one mole of any gas will fill about 22.4 liters. |
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One mole of air weights slightly over 28 grams.
One mole of helium weighs about 4 grams.
One mole of hydrogen weighs about 1 gram. |
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Since one mole of helium weighs about 24 grams less than a mole of air, helium has "lift" of just over 1.06 gram per liter. Hydrogen, even though it weighs a quarter as much as helium, has a lift of 1.13 g/l--not much different. Even perfect vacuum (neglecting the weight of the container) only has a lift of 1.17g/l. |
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To avoid paying extra for an overly-large package, length plus girth must not exceed 84". The largest-volume box that meets such a criterion is a 28"x14"x14" (71.12cm x 35.56cm x 35.56cm). Such a box would hold 89.9 liters of gas. Since helium has a lift of 1.06 g/l, the lift is thus 95.3 grams (3.36oz). Measurable, certainly, but not large enough to be worth bothering about. |
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supercat, thanks. That's exactly what I was hoping to see. |
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And your example presumes the entire box to be filled with helium, correct? It does not allow for the displacement from the box contents... the actual items being shipped in it. So the effect would be considerably less once the box was packed. |
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Good. Now that we've established that this wouldn't work as described, can someone tell me how it got 31 plus votes? |
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Well, "Tails for All" is currently -31, +108, so it's obviously not on any particularly sound basis. |
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angel, on the contrary, that's perfectly reasonable: making packages fly by filling them with helium will never work, whereas putting tails on people is just a matter of time... |
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It would also be effective to put a hole in the bottom of an airtight box, then release hydrogen directly into the box(helium is too expensive), and the air will automatically push itself out while the hydogen replaces all of the air. Then seal up the box and weight it again. No pump is needed since the hydrogen will push iself higher into the box, and at the same time push the air lower out of the box. If that proves unsafe it could at least be a helium-hydrogen mix. |
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It would also be effective to put a hole in the bottom of an airtight box, then release hydrogen directly into the box(helium is too expensive), and the air will automatically push itself out while the hydogen replaces all of the air. Then seal up the box and weight it again. No pump is needed since the hydrogen will push iself higher into the box, and at the same time push the air lower out of the box. If that proves unsafe it could at least be a helium-hydrogen mix. |
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so, what if i was mailing helium??? |
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[supercat] there's a small, mostly irrelevant mistake in the molar mass of hydrogen. Hydrogen gas at normal temperatures is in molecular form, so the molar mass is 2 grams/mole. |
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I only mention it because I missed out on an A on a final in high school chemistry (way back when) because I made exactly that mistake. |
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Now back to your regularly scheduled program of someone else wondering if a package with negative weight would be mailed for negative money.... |
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//there's a small, mostly irrelevant mistake in the molar mass of hydrogen. Hydrogen gas at normal temperatures is in molecular form, so the molar mass is 2 grams/mole.// |
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Thanks for the correction. Can you look at my table in "Develop a lighter-than-air solid" and tell me if there are any errors or omissions there? |
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The savings in weight would be negligible compared to the cost of the helium itself. It might be cheaper to carve sculptures out of antimatter and send them in a magnetic bottle. |
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The package would still weigh the same amount (possibly minisculy lighter because of the difference between the weight of helium and air). |
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Has anyone settled this yet? |
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To contain He you're going to need a much more expensive wrap, and it will probably be heavier overall as well. (-) |
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Can't you make the bubble-wrap material stronger (again) and fill up the bubble-compartment with vacuum. Don't vacuums weigh even less than heliums ? |
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This doesn't work. The volumn required causes the shipping price to rise more than the lowered weight causes the shipping price to decline. |
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Plus, how would the manufacturer deliver bubble wrap to the post office without the delivery truck lifting off the road? |
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I'm so intrigued, I want to try it. |
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If it was lighter than air than when someone tries to measure it's weight it would seem to weigh a negative amount, so the shipping company would have to pay you. |
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A great idea, but everyone is forgetting something: |
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If you took an empty 9 cubic foot box and filled it with bubble wrap, it would take less than an ounce off the weight, if anything. I would be surprised if the helium-filled bubble wrap even managed to float; helium is light, but not that light. However, hydrogen on the other hand, twice as light as helium.... |
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Overall, I think that it really wouldn't be worth it to use helium bubble wrap. A bun for you anyway; good idea, but really not practical. |
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// If it was lighter than air than when someone tries to measure it's weight it would seem to weigh a negative amount, so the shipping company would have to pay you.// |
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You could try taking a normal helium balloon with an address stuck on to the post office and ask them for money to post it. |
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Now residing in my bucket list is to fill packages with helium and post them (picturing packages stuck to the ceiling and floating around in the depot). |
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HELIUM BUBBLE WRAP HUH, HOW ABOUT BUYING A PARTY BALLOON AND FILL IT WITH HELIUM FROM A CARTREDGE? AS FOR HELIUM BUBBLE WRAP IT WOULD BE GREAT FOR FILLING UP THE BLIMPS. THAT WAY IF SOMEONE SHOOTS AND HITS IT WITH A BULLET IT WOULD NOT CRASH. iI'M SORRY BUT THE COST OF THE HELIUM FILLED BUBBLE WRAP WOULD ELIMINATE ANY SAVINGS ON POSTAGE i'M AFRAID. |
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I like your name HEMPSTER. |
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I don't know why [HEMPSTER] is afraid - if he doesn't want to ship his packages this way no one is forcing him to. And he's shouting. |
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Its wraps itself with helium bubble wrap or its gets it! Now to fpv
in final fantasy polyurethane wraped airship drones with helium
bubble wrapped components and circuit boards! |
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It may be good for amazon if they ever use drones to deliver packages. But the litter may be bad for jet engines when planes fly into some stray floating helium bubble wrap. |
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