h a l f b a k e r yThe word "How?" springs to mind at this point.
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A hinged metal band to be worn like a belt, lined with thick squares on the outside and rubber cushioning on the inside, and with a ripcord where the buckle is. Each square is made of solid steel, and has five shallow holes drilled into it's face. One placed directly in the center and pointing directly
away from the user, with the other four placed around it and aimed at a slight diagonal, but still away from the user. Each hole has a piece of lead buckshot and enough powder to make the buckshot lethal at 30 feet when fired. Pulling the ripcord ignites all the buckshot charges at once.
When surrounded by faceless mooks with outdated submachine guns in neon jumpers, instead of dropping you guns and being interrogated by their super-scientist boss, pull the cord and let a exploding ring of lead make minion-paste out of them.
Fire from the groin...
http://youtu.be/jts0xxg7P8I
[Klaatu, Oct 10 2011]
Similar results
http://www.youtube....watch?v=Z2Zvz1v7Hig
I imagine slinging that much lead would require equivilent force. [MikeD, Oct 10 2011]
Sonic Claymore
Sonic_20Claymore
[MisterQED, Oct 11 2011]
Halfbakery Poker
Halfbakery_20Poker
[21Quest] has the right idea... [normzone, Oct 12 2011]
[link]
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Yes but the recoil sucks. |
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//Yes but the recoil sucks.// |
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Blows, actually. I'm no explosives expert, but I think the detonation would kill you. |
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Wait a mintue... I AM an explosives expert, and the detonation will kill you. |
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Why are the submachineguns in neon jumpers? |
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What [MikeD] said (all of it, including the bit about being an explosives expert). |
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// submachineguns in neon jumpers? // |
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Because they're outdated, i.e. middle aged, still live with their parents, have never had a girlfriend, and never will wearing the hideous neon jumpers (actually, cardigans) their mother knits for them. |
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Thank you, [8th]. But from one expert to another; let’s not be presumptuous... |
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I'm all for strapping one of these contraptions to [21Quest] and giving this idea a fair shake before killing it in the crib. |
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Your cautious, evidence-based approach does you great credit. |
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We'll knock him down, you strap the belt on ... |
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Ah, yes, the old 'human claymore'. The only flaw is the
excessive wear and tear on the human component. |
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"Think of it as evolution in action." |
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What about a hat-device with a 360 degree field of fire? If the charges were set in a circle above your head, worn on top of some sort of helmet, they could all fire without exerting their force on the gooey center [human]. Warning: hearing protection required. |
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Err, no. When the radial shockwaves reach the centre of the ring,
they will then propagate normal to the plane, both up and down.
Research on this phenomenon was a critical part of the
Manhattan project. |
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As a way of making your brains squirt out through youur nose at
high velocity, it would workk really well. |
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If a rigid girdle were added to the design, would that help with the recoil problem, or would it just direct a nasty shockwave into the armpits? |
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I know exactly what will improve this idea both in
real world and here at the HB, custard. The belt
buckle needs to ride on a couple of custard
(non-Newtonian) infused layers of Kevlar to spread
out the pressure wave. You also need to figure
out how to keep the blast wave from sheering off
your face, but I leave that in others hands. I
personally don't like putting explosives so close to
the parts of me I am trying to protect, so (-), but I
sure
many here will agree, this idea needs more
custard. |
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If you actually want to face down hords of faceless
mooks, wouldn't a better idea be something less
deadly and more disable-y like a magnesium flash
or how about a chain of small explosives that
create a sound weapon? (Hmmm, off to add as
separate idea) (Sonic Claymore- link) Either way,
the idea needs more
custard. |
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[Edited] to make it clearer that this isn't a suicide weapon. It's more like a 360 degree shotgun than a devastating explosive. |
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If you played Deus Ex: Human Revolution, the main character could get a weapon called the Typhoon which had an effect similar to this, firing ball bearings in a 360 degree arc from the main characters cybernetic prosthetics. I was trying to think of a low tech, semi-plausible way of doing the same thing that didn't require getting your arms replaced with robot ones. |
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//didn't require getting your arms replaced with robot ones//
But wouldn't you be handicapping yourself compared to those people *with* robot arms? |
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Not if I have a shotgun belt and he's standing roughly ten feet away from me and is at the same elevation! |
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Otherwise, yeah, robo arms guy has got me beat. |
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The major difference between a weapon featured in a
video game and one in real life is that the designers of real
life can't change reality to suit the hero's purposes. |
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When a shotgun shell is fired from a shotgun, the
considerable recoil is, in the shooter's vernacular, 'soaked
up' by the solid steel receiver, the stock (made from
hardwood, metal, or hard plastic), and the shooter's
shoulder, which is made mostly of bone, cartilage and
muscle and is in fact one of the toughest parts of the
human
body. If a butt of the shotgun were placed firmly against
the lower abdomen, that recoil force would be imparted to
the internal organs, most of which have all the structural
integrity of a Jello mold (as does the brain, as well). Now
imagine taking away all the steel and hardwood that soaks
up so much of that recoil and firing the round directly from
some kind of belt-like appuratus (or alternatively, a very
strange-looking and rather heavy hat), with only a thin
metal plate between the destructive force of a shotgun
blast and your soft 'n' tenders. Presto chango, your vital
Jello bits have been converted to soup. |
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Meanwhile, your video game hero assumes his idle stance
and waits patiently until the paramedics arrive and turn
the game console off. |
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Received wisdom is that, when employing explosives (rather than
propellants), one of the crucial principles to observe is to be as
far away as possible from it when it detonates. |
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This idea, since it disregards such a fundamental survival
strategy, is not likely to find favour with anyone who has prior
knowledge or experience of the use of explosives. |
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//the considerable recoil is, in the shooter's
vernacular, 'soaked up' by the solid steel receiver,
the stock (made from hardwood, metal, or hard
plastic), and the shooter's shoulder// |
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Just a point of inquiry, but is much of the recoil
absorbed by anything except the shoulder? I
didn't think so unless you are counting their
resistance to inertia. I guess you could make a
stock that does, but I didn't know many that do as
it might affect accuracy. I have seen a rubber cushions at the back of the stock, but even those
are usually pretty thin. |
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There is a bit of impulse soaked up by intertia, hence lighter weapons having more stout recoil when compared to heavier weapons of the same calibre, but the stock does much more transmitting than absorbing. |
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//this isn't a suicide weapon// |
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[Edited] again, this time to get a little closer to what's in my head. I'm trying to think of how to design this so it's not lethal to the user. I'll freely admit I don't know a lot about explosives, and my knowledge of firearms is only marginally better. |
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In my head, since the steel band is rigid and each powder charge is as small as I think would be useful, it seems survivable. But that's, once again, in my head. |
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Can anyone run the numbers on this? How much force would be needed to drive a single piece of 00 buckshot 30 feet with lethal force? And bearing that in mind, how much force would cause internal organ damage? |
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Say the belt has 7 squares, each with five holes. That's 35 individual pieces of buckshot, all going off at once. According to the internet, most 00 shells contain ~8 pellets. Which means the belt would be roughly equivalent to having 4-5 shells going off at once. |
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Do I need fewer holes? Lighter shot? Smaller effective radius? Healthier recreational outlets? |
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Where is [dbmag9] when you need him (shines the nemesis signal on a cloud) ? |
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Question: Have you ever fired a 12 gage shotgun with one of those green-cased buckshot shells in it? Held to your shoulder? |
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// but the stock does much more transmitting than
absorbing. // |
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True. 'Soaking up' recoil is a quick and dirty way of
describing how effectively the frame of the firearm
reduces 'felt recoil.' Heavier and more substantial frames
'slow' (again, an unscientific term) the transmission of the
recoil to the shoulder, spreading out the transfer of energy
over a slightly longer period of time than would a lighter
or poorly-designed firearm. |
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I use unscientific and slang terms because I am a shooter
with years of experience handling and firing everything
from .17 caliber revolvers to, on one memorable day, a
South African 20mm sniper rifle. As many of you know, I'm
not a physicist or engineer. I don't know how to describe
these things in scientific terms and would feel foolish
trying. I thank all those who jump in on my behalf to
explain what I'm trying to say. |
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I am not a firearms expert, I am just an avid
hobbyist (and former competitor) who has fired tens of
thousands of rounds from over a hundred different types of
guns (maybe over two hundred). I like to take them apart
and examine their function, compare different designs and
talk with other enthusiasts, and make repairs and
improvements to my own guns and those belonging to my
friends. I have also built several custom rifles from hand-
picked components, one of which won a Northeast Region
NRA Hi-Power competition in the hands of a far more
talented marksman than I. But I am not an expert.
Seriously. |
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Long-winded, self-conscious, overly-defensive diatribe
concludes here. As you were. |
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// Do I need fewer holes? Lighter shot? Smaller effective radius? // |
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What you need is a much better knowledge of physics, metallurgy, ballistics, human physiology, explosives and propellants. |
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// Healthier recreational outlets ? // |
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Actually no, strangely you're doing just fine on that one ... |
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Actually, now that I think about this idea semi-seriously
instead of just rejecting it on the grounds that the original
concept would be messily lethal to the user, I have this
suggestion: |
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Buckshot is not necessary. In a street-fight scenario,
intimidation is what often determines the victor (I know
this from personal experience, so don't argue with me
unless you, too, have been in a number of brawls). A small
amount of birdshot propelled by a charge equivalent to
that of a 9mm round would suffice. I've never been
'peppered', but I was once struck in the shoulder by a
single steel pellet and it stung like hell. That pain,
combined with the gawdawful bang of the charges going
off, would IMNAAHO deter everyone but a really dedicated
psychopath. Street toughs are like bears; sure, they could
take on the biggest badass out there, but why waste the
effort when there's easier prey to be found? |
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//Do I need fewer holes? Lighter shot? Smaller effective radius? Healthier recreational outlets?// |
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The latter, IMHO. If you had a ring of very short shotgun barrels pointed outwards (each orientated exactly 180 degrees from it's opposite), all mounted to a continuous ring of steel plate, fired simultaneously, I could see this working. You could have multiple rows of barrels, too. The only limiting factors would be the yeild stress limit of the steel ring, and the deviation from *Simultaneous*. |
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I still say we should test it out on [21Q], first. |
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No need for a //Long-winded, self-conscious, overly-
defensive diatribe// as I was just wondering also. I
actually am a Physicist or at least my degree says so,
but there are a lot of things at work in firearms and I
know only the barest basics. I know if you get really
large (cannons, etc), then the barrels move to absorb
some of the shock and I think that also happens in
some small automatic pistols, but I thought it messed
with accuracy. |
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// some small automatic pistols // |
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In all automatic pistols, actually, and I will refrain from
smugly boring you death with an explanation of how it's not
the barrel that moves but a different part, and it's not to
reduce recoil but actually to harness the recoil to power
the mechanism that loads the next round into the
chamber, which is what makes the pistol (semi-)
automatic. You've got the basics down, clearly. Since
you're an actual physicist, you could probably spend an
afternoon reading about guns and then come back here and
take me to school. |
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//Question: Have you ever fired a...// |
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I have only fired 9mm rifle (Hi Point? Can't remember. Basically no kick.) and a Mosin Nagant. The Nagant punched you in the shoulder like a bastard, and to top things off had a nice steel butt plate. |
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//would IMNAAHO deter everyone but a really dedicated psychopath// |
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Granted, but the spirit of this invention is that it makes mincemeat out of your enemies. I suppose a functional version with low lethality is better than an incredibly unsafe version that will turn your internal organs to goo. |
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Also, yeah, where is DBmag? This is like my third idea since I came back, and he's nowhere around. I'm a bit worried. |
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If your belt is a rigid ring, and you simultaneously fire diametrically opposed pairs, it should be recoilless. |
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If your belt is an oversized rigid ring, and the holes are somewhat angled, you've invented the Hula Hoop from Hell. |
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Well, the Mosin Nagant feels about like the shotgun would. We could probably discern the difference if we had them to test - You bring the Mosin, I'll lbring the 12 gage and the beer. |
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[Alterother]'s suggestion on bird shot sounded valid - then again, he hunts deer with a motorcycle. I wonder how the season is regulated for that. Probably any time it's warm and dry. |
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// I will refrain from smugly boring you death // |
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Is this some sort of major policy revision ? |
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// deviation from *Simultaneous* // // it should be recoilless // |
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"should be". Oooh, love the way you sneaked in that little ambiguity. |
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// I still say we should test it out on [21Q], first // |
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And we still agree with you. |
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// You and what collective? I phoned the Borg's contact number // |
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Of course we didn't admit to our existance. Even the Borg have Black Projects ... |
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Not that I'm the type of person to engage in designing weaponry of course, but... |
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mounted tangentially they won't squeeze your innards out of all your orifices. |
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//if your belt is a rigid ring// Only works if the
detonations are perfectly symmetrical.
Otherwise, you get a force couple, the rigid ring
rotates around some axis that isn't vertical, and cuts
you in three. |
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I thought the holographic cat was a good one. |
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I'm not one to step into the middle of an online gun fight, but I'm a little disappointed that the weapons being textually waved around aren't as halfbaked as the main post. Lets have a little less M82 .50 's and a little more super-soakers full of gasoline around here. |
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I think you mean dual automatic belt-fed wrist-mounted crossbows with self-igniting phosphorus bolts, backed up by some of the earlier-mentioned custard armor. |
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I checked my halfbakery arsenal and apparently I have a gun that shoots overcharged batteries. You got anything that can stop acid? |
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Ooh, halfbakery arsenal. Now there's an idea to post. I've got a fire extinguisher attached to a pistol if you check my ideas. |
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Ahh, sounds kind of like a game of halfbakery poker. |
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//stop acid ?// I got EMP ammunition that could wreak havoc on the charging system... though I'd probably send an "Abdominal Snowman" over first to negotiate. |
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<sets exploding throwing stars on the ground, backs away slowly> |
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Normzone might have something there with a halfbakery
arsenal game idea. If it were a cardgame as he suggests
then it could be a sort of bluff calling game, at least in
part. The idea being that players have cards featuring
fictitious inventions that they claim to own and use to
counteract opponents inventions. However this will be
truly in the spirit of the halfbakery because players can
make up and claim to own useful inventions on the spot.
For example if normzone draws his pistol fire extinguisher I
can claim to have an extinguisher extinguisher which
would be an obvious trump card. If he decides to use his
card he wins the made up invention and can craft a shoddy
hand drawn card for later use. If he had a pistol
extinguisher and I had what I claimed I get his. If both
were bluffs then the play continues risking that the
inventions will be forgotten. Basically play continues like
that as arsenals grow and players strategize to make cards
to win back their stolen ideas, and their opponents. |
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Standard halfbakery rules apply including WIBNI WWTCTI..
MFD etc.
Typed on mobile device |
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//// some small automatic pistols // |
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In all automatic pistols, actually, and I will refrain from smugly boring you death with an explanation of how it's not the barrel that moves but a different part, and it's not to reduce recoil but actually to harness the recoil to power the mechanism that loads the next round into the chamber, which is what makes the pistol (semi-) automatic // |
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We..ll not all auto pistols. You're forgetting the gas operated and blowback operated ones. Perhaps the most familiar to you would be the IMI desert eagle, which is gas operated. Also, nearly any .22 you see will be blowback operated - you can tell because the barrel is fixed to the breech whereas short recoil tilting barrel (SRTB - easily 90% of centrefire auto pistols), the barrel is not fixed. The gas operated desert eagle is a nightmare of complexity in comparison, and should be left to the would-be gang bangers. |
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Even more also - the barrel in a SRTB auto pistol does move - but as it moves it tilts on a ramp (unlocking it from the slide) and then it stops. It doesn't move far, but it does move. Because the barrel is initially locked to the slide at the beginning of it's "short recoil", it imparts momentum to the slide, which continues back and performs the eject-load-battery cycle. |
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... You might consider yourself smugly bored to death at this point, but I'm both engineer and firearms enthusiast, and I find autoloading mechanisms to be a fascinating mix of zen-trickery and agricultural bodgery. |
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Have none of you heard of the Davis Gun ? Ever ? Anyone ? |
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We are saddened and depressed by your lack of insight. We have been waiting for someone - anyone - to pose the obvious solution. |
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The way to achieve the desired effect with the minimum of damage to the user is to employ recoilless projectile dischargers. |
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This would be simply a metal tube with and electrically-initiated propellant charge in the centre sandwiched between two packages of buckshot, one at each end. |
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When the charge is fired, each package is discharged in opposite directions. There is no recoil as such, if the projectile masses are balanced. |
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Eight of these units attached around the circumference of a belt will meet the specification for a broad-area short range AP weapon. |
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The noise when firing will be VERY loud and there will be significant muzzle blast. |
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Reloading will be slow and may not be practicable in the field. Use of lightweight alloys could be combined to make this a single-use device. The loaded weight will then largely be the mass of the projectiles. |
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// I find autoloading mechanisms to be a fascinating mix of
zen-trickery // |
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As do I, including often using the word 'zen' to describe the
pleasure of long range shooting. |
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I left out the variants (such as the Desert Eagle and the
<drool> Five-seveN) under the 'not-boring-to-death'
clause, though I'm sure there are many s-a handguns that
I'm not familiar with and don't fall under my loose
description. I know what I shoot. I never fire a gun without
taking it apart (and, of course, re-assembling it) first,
because I'm as enthralled by the worky-bits as I am by the
function. |
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[21], you really have a Barrett? I don't mean to insult you
at all, but I can't help but be a little skeptical... And if you
do, envious. I've had the pleasure (and pain) of firing them
more than once, but have nowhere/no reason to use one
up here in the mountains and there are no 1000yd comps
north of NY. Still, I paid less for my erstwhile motorcycle
(hell, less for my Duece _or_ my Jeep, either) than the
cost of a Barrett. |
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We're using our half-baked ideas as weapons? Then I will throw Danger Bunnies at you from the saddle of my Rocket Bear, with a trusty Ice Cream Gun at my hip. |
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And then the Weaponized Solar Flare comes from outer space, killing each and every one of us as the surface of the earth is melted by plasma. |
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Has that already been posted? Hang on, I know I've got a
bun around here somewhere... |
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I've seen Barret-like things, probably some sort of analog, sitting on the counter in the gun shops of Arizona, $1,000 USD. |
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There are a lot of single-shot bolt-action .50s that bear
suspiciously close resemblance to Barretts, and I've fired
some of them, too. Lemme tell ya, there ain't nothin' like
the real thing. |
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Never shot none of them: I like my upper body the way it is thanks. OTOH a standard nato cratering charge beats anything short of bombs/missiles (and of course nuclear mortars). |
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Yeah... Even a Barrett, gentlest of the 'big fifties', takes a
good-sized chunk out of your shoulder. One of the best
civilian thousand-yard shooters I've ever seen was a very
petite woman, though. We all stood around and reminded
ourselves that we were secure in our masculinity when she
was up to shoot. |
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//a standard nato cratering charge beats anything short of bombs/missiles// |
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I'd rather use a bangalore torpedo. |
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I'm sad for these faceless mooks. Their mothers are waiting for them at home, drip-drying their spare neon jumpers. Just talk to the super-scientist. He might have some interesting ideas. |
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Catenax. Definitely one of our better ideas. |
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You need to read the Evil Overlord guide again, [21Q]. Explaining the method of imminent demise to the Hero in great technical detail is, we're afraid, a really classic Evil Overlord mistake, merely allowing them (the Hero) to work out the one tiny flaw that will allwo them to escape (at the very last second, of course). |
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Good strutting though, nice pointy moustache, like the robes, maybe a bit more practice on the "MUHWHAHAHAHAHA !" wouldn't go amiss, though ? Oh, and a word to your designer. Those uniforms for your minions look terribly derivative, half Nazi, half Imperial Stormtrooper ? You need something fresher, more with it, a contemporaray look - or soething really radical, like gold lycra jockstraps with orstrich plumes. |
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No, no, I ordered the _ silver_ lycra with _peacock_
plumes. What do you take me for, a Landsncheckt (sp?)?!
And who the hell got my Buzz Rickson's authentic Replica
Imperial Stormtrooper greaves? |
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Ahhh .... now we understand why [MB]'s groundsmen looked so odd. Those greaves just look so ... wrong. |
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And those breastplates, with those boots ? Puh - leasee .... |
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// you didn't compliment my well-oiled goatee... you cut me to the quick! // |
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Sorry. We didn't like to mention it ... what you do with your goat in private is none of our business. We didn't want to bring it up in a public forum. |
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The earring is a nice touch, though. Is that a real scar on your cheek, or just makeup ? Had to tell, it's very convincing. |
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If you would like a more contemporary and innovative design for your Audience Chamber, let us know. It's nice, yes, but, well, a bit "samey" ? The cracks in the floor for the trapdoor to cast the Hero into the Pit of Doom are a bit obvious to be honest, and there's not really enough width for a Final One To One Duel. A table to jump on and a chandelier to swing from would just add so much to the ambience. |
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But that piranha pool is a real beaut, who did that for you ? Was it expensive ? Do the gilded dragon statues squirt liquid fire when you twist your signet ring, or are they controled from the arm of the throne ? Either way, quality. Jim Kirk would love it. |
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Also, where do you chain up the Heroine - that's like a concealed fitting behind a sliding panel, right ? |
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And all this from a man who's uncomfortable with Kegels... |
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