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Donald Trump Clay Pigeons are, as the name suggests, clay pigeons with The Donald's grinning visage stamped onto their faces. A swirling blond hairpiece that has been glued firmly in position, completes the arrangement.
Just like the man himself, Donald Trump Clay Pigeons are totally inert, and those
blasting them into smithereens from the sky can do so without the slightest feeling of guilt that any form of intelligent life is being harmed.
Donald Trump Clay Pigeons are made from a mixture of self hardening clay blended with some edible tidbits, so that foraging rodents, birds and various insect life can pick away appropriately at their fragmented remnants.
Punch Bob
Punch_20Bob
[theircompetitor, Dec 11 2015]
Keep Trump out of The UK
https://petition.pa...uk/petitions/114003
This is the most popular petition in the UK ever. 500,000 signatures to date. [xenzag, Dec 12 2015]
Petition to keep fascist Trump out of Republic of Ireland
https://my.uplift.i...ton&time=1449817904
excellent - keep him in his own festering backwater [xenzag, Dec 14 2015]
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Annotation:
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Isn't all clay self hardening ? |
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It seems to me this Idea should be more generic, allowing
any face hated by someone (bring in a picture!) to be
embossed onto some clay pigeons, during their making. |
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Clay is usually fired to make it harden, which would be
quite ironic in the case of Mr Fucking dick head racist
Trump, but would prevent 'him' becoming bird food after
the shot gun pellets have done the necessary. The only
good news about Trump is that the petition to have him
banned from entering the UK on the grounds of being a
racist hate merchant has reached over half a million
signatories. Seeing his rotten effigy spinning skywards
would please many people no end. |
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So much bile, spite and venom ... has anyone listened and understood what he actually said, rather than the media's intentionally distorted version ? |
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He's asking that the U.S. government get their act together and work out what's going on. That can't be too hard, shirley ? |
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// has anyone listened and understood what he actually
said//I have. I read his immigration policy before he
changed his website. It read like Mein Kampf. |
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As for the idea, it contains too much rant. [-] |
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// It read like Mein Kampf // |
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That's another five dollars in the bag ... |
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<looks around expectantly for five dollars> |
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Invoking Godwin's Law is totally inappropriate here. The
policies Trump is advocating are fascist and aimed at
stirring up the US populace against one religion and
ethnicity. It's a rare time when comparison to Hitler is more
appropriate. Sure he's not actually advocating genocide, but
neither did Hitler, publicly, at first. He just used a popular
hatred to get into power. |
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You can say what you want about Hitler... but he did kill Hitler. |
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Do you think it's good to ban people you disagree
with? |
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Who decides what speech is good and what speech is
bad? Which should be allowed and which should be
banned? |
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Banning speech, any speech is totalitarianism. It's not
Hitler yet, but moving in the right direction. |
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// It read like Mein Kampf // |
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Brave of you to admit you've read Mein Kampf. I
haven't myself but I probably should since it's
referred to so much so I'll know what the heck
everybody is talking about all the time, in every
argument about anything ever. |
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No one is free to say what they want. If you want to
contradict that in the UK you will find yourself in trouble
with incitement to hatred laws. Keeping hatred merchants
like Trump aware that the are not wanted is vital to the
health of a decent society. |
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//No one is free to say what they want. If you want to
contradict that in the UK you will find yourself in trouble
with incitement to hatred laws. Keeping hatred
merchants like Trump aware that the are not wanted is
vital to the health of a decent society// |
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No one is free to say what I disagree with. If you want to
contradict what my group says in the UK you will find
yourself in trouble with people like me who are in charge
and you should be afraid of us and keep your mouth shut.
Keeping people I disagree with aware that
they will be punished for having a different viewpoint
from us who have risen to power is vital to our iron
grip on society. We will use fear and intimidation to
secure this iron grip. |
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Let me ask you this: What if your side is wrong on a given
subject? Or is that not a possibility? Are you right about
everything 100% of the time? I know I'm not. |
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Let's say you're right 95% of the time but 5% of the time
you're wrong and you use threats and intimidation to
quash dissent from those who are actually right on a
particular
controversy. Are you not being evil in that instance?
Doesn't that bother you? |
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//Communism and Fascism are the yin and yang of
collectivism.// |
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The alternative is a state which allows freedom of the
individual to express themselves, right or wrong, so ideas
can be debated freely and decided by the people on their
merit, not controlled by fear induced by the state. |
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I don't need fancy terms to describe a state that so
controls the individual that it assumes it can do the
thinking for us. I'll just call it bad. |
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And isn't it ironic that you're calling out somebody for
their hatred with this very hate filled post? Shooting
pictures of somebody's face with a gun? Jeez. |
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Anyway, right or wrong that's my two cents. |
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I think my Trump Clay Pigeons would sell rather well, so in
that respect they are perhaps not that halfbaked. I may
even approach Trump to see if he wants to invest in such a
great money making idea. |
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What do you have against clay pigeons that you would subject them to such cruelty? |
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They're horrid things, with their little beady eyes and sharp yellow teeth and long scaly tails, and they urinate everywhere, and they carry fleas and spread diseases like Weil's and Plague, is why. |
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// I haven't myself but I probably should // |
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It's hard work. And really not very good. |
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The problem with that logic is that Trump doesn't have any ideas.
Somewhere between freedom to espouse any trash you care to vomit
out and the thought police there is the precedent of wisdom and
prudence, neither of which this trollish windbag has. The UK has every
right to ban him if they so choose. He's the travbm of American
Politics. |
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His popularity amongst the Republican party should teach you
something about their current nature, which is why I rejected them
several years ago. |
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//how do you propose to maintain the free-state, when
faced with the recent efficiencies of Collectives that
operate contrary to its principles?// |
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There's no other way, you have to fight for it. Like
anything else in life that's worth something, it comes with
a cost. The struggle for individual freedom is just that, an
ongoing struggle. Sometimes that struggle just requires
speaking your mind, sometimes you need to physically
fight against those who would use violence against you
and do you harm. |
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One thing to take to heart, most collectivists are pretty
weak people, that's why they join big groups. One smart,
strong individual is worth a thousand mindless sheep.
Allow me to share a great story of my wonderful dad. I'm
paraphrasing from a story my mom has told a dozen
times so accept this, my best effort to relate it second
hand as I was not there. |
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I was just a kid at the time many years ago when our
town meeting had been inundated by members of a
group called "The Venceremos" which was a self described
communist revolutionary group espousing the violent
overthrow of anybody who got in their way. My dad, a
former Korean war veteran didn't have a lot of respect
for communists like this having fought Kim Il-sung's thugs
after they invaded South Korea. These penny ante
revolutionaries were wearing little badges in the shape of
the AK-47 machine gun to intimidate the
pandering, frightened townsfolk. As one of the guys was
yelling at my dad my dad interrupted him and asked
"What's that button you're wearing on your jacket?" to
which the man replied "That's an AK-47, the finest
firearm in the world! The tool we're gonna will use to
overthrow your corrupt society." My dad said "Have you
ever shot somebody with one?" No answer. At this point
my mom says she scrunched down in her chair trying not
to be seen, absolutely terrified. She said the whole hall,
formerly full of yelling and screaming had suddenly
become so quiet you could hear a pin drop. "Have you
ever killed anybody?" my dad said. No answer. "Because I
have. In the army I killed people carrying that very
weapon. I did it because it was my job. I was trained to
do it and when called on, I did it well. Now when this
revolution you want comes, I'll be the one with the
experience having been there before. You'll be new to
this. So keep that in mind when you try to come down my
street carrying one of those." |
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They never came back, and I'm not saying my dad had
anything to do with it but they disbanded not too long
after that. |
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I grew up in a pretty tough part of town and I know
bullies. They're all a bunch of pussies deep down. Stand
up to them like my dad did to these thugs and they melt
like butter. |
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So don't be afraid, stand up for your rights and don't ever
let anybody say you don't deserve the right to self
determination or that they know what's best for you
better than you do. They don't, and when it comes right
down to it, they're usually just making a bunch of noise.
Swat 'em on the nose with a newspaper and they run into
the night looking for weaker prey to bully. |
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// the recent efficiencies of Collectives that operate contrary to its principles? // |
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Collectives are goood ... |
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Collectives of good people are good. |
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What about evil hegemonising swarms ? |
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'Bar Trump from entering the UK' petition now has 551,988
signatures. This is a most excellent result and as the
petition has until June to run, it's a certainty that the
cretinous and racist Trump will ensure that the number
increases. By then I will with any luck be selling my Trump
Clay PIgeons and feeding the hungry wildlife with his
fragmented remnants. |
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// that episode where one of the collective got separated // |
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Third of Five in "I, Borg", also known as Hugh. But he saw sense and rejoined us in the end. |
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<adds [LimpNotes] name to the list of dissidents and undesirables> |
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//Collectivism is indoctrination that puts the "we"
before the "I", the "is it allowed?" before "is it right?",
the "what should I think?" before "what do I think?".// |
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That's a pretty insightful way to frame the
differences between a hive mind society and one that
values self determination. |
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I guess something that helps individuals who think for
themselves do better is a society with a free market
economy that's doesn't have a social strata that's
tough to move up in. That gives incentive to being an
efficient, good person because being a good person is
good business. It also gives incentive for innovation
and innovation is something that EXCLUSIVELY comes
from the individual. All great inventions have a single
name that can be attached to it. (although to be fair
most inventions had other individuals who
worked on previous incarnations) |
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Even when you
have a group of people coming together to do some
great thing such as building the internet or landing on
the moon, even then they're piecing together the
accomplishments of motivated, self determined
individuals. You could make a mosaic of the Saturn 5
Moon rocket surrounded by all the individuals who
invented the various pieces that went into it. Marconi
for the radio, Edison for all the little lightbulbs in the
control panel, Goddard for the engines and so on and
so on. |
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Although bad, groupthink people can do well, I think
good, individualist people do better and I see a lot of
good people in business. They have to be good or else
people won't do business with them. Business does
better in a free market economy and a free society
and guys like Steve Jobs are going to move us further
along than "The Moscow Institute of Physics and
Technology", the Soviet Union's attempt to get people
together to create new technological innovations. A
couple of Americans in a garage beat the hell out of
that model every time. Why? Because they have
incentive. When you're working at the Soviet's think
tank, you're only incentive is to not make waves and
get fired. Go with the flow, keep your head down and
don't piss off Stalin. |
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The societies that crush the individual do the
absolute worst. North Korea is like a monument to
totalitarianism with free South Korea set next to it as
an example of free and fascist societies. Just look at
the famous picture from space of the two countries.
North Korea can't even light their country at night. |
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//By then I will with any luck be selling my Trump
Clay PIgeons and feeding the hungry wildlife with his
fragmented remnants.// |
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Wow Xen, lotta hate there. |
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... with the added advantage that they didn't have to tell the world about the previous four dogs that failed to make it ... |
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//promotes everybody to want to become a millionaire
or a superstar or a hero, then most people will be
disappointed// |
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You raise an interesting point about the stardom
thing. |
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I used to make my living in the music business back
when music was made with clubs banging on dinosaur
ribs. |
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You had your bands that made it to MTV and world
tours, playing stadiums, getting radio play and
getting their records in all the stores, then you had
bands that just might make an augmented income
playing 3 or 4 shows a month around their home
towns. Stars? Maybe not, but
more celebrated than the average Joe. And as
somebody who paid their dues in the lower ranks
before moving on, I can tell you that you get some of
the things that
the stars get. And yes I'm talking about adoration
from the ladies, pretty much the main perk of
stardom in my opinion. But more than that, you might get
your song in a movie, or a video game. There's various
levels of success and the satisfaction that comes with it.
It's not just star/not star. I remember the first time I saw
my name on the big screen in the credits to a major
motion picture. I
didn't get all that much money, but it was really
satisfying. When I get royalty checks all these years later
that's pretty satisfying too. I would suggest all young
people who have a love of the arts give it their best
shot. But what's the expression? Keep your dreams and
your day job? Something like that. |
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Anyway, music was the ultimate entry level job that was
a
complete meritocracy. Sports is another one. Why are
they so loved in our culture? Because, with sports at
least, not so much music anymore, it's about being good,
not connected. In sports you'll never hear
this: |
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"And the number one ranked quarterback of the tenth
year in a row
is Buddy Jones, who is of course the son of NFL
commissioner Buddy Jones Senior, owner of the team
his son plays for." |
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No, it's going to be the guy who's best suited for the
job, the guy who puts in the most effort and is the
most talented. It's not about him being connected or
being a member of the right family. THAT'S why we
love sports. You can come from the worst shit-hole in
America and still succeed if you're good enough. This gives
us all hope. If that guy from a humble background can
succeed to these great heights, maybe I can better my
existence as well. Maybe not as much as him, but clearly
hard work pays off SOMETIMES. Maybe I'll get good enough
at football to play in college and become a high school
coach and make a reasonable living doing something I
really love even if I don't make it to the big leagues. |
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That's how the American dream works. It's not all or
nothing, but it's powered by hope. |
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That's why the hive mind socialists want to erase hope,
tell you that the cards are stacked against you so the
only way to succeed is to vote for me, we'll have this nice
little revolution, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and
you'll get lots of money without having to do anything.
Plus we'll get rid of those dirty, filthy horrible people,
the:
(fill in the blank) that are holding you back! They get
votes, they get power and on it goes, this scam they run. |
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//Wow Xen, lotta hate there.// - yes I make no apologies for detesting Trump, but my hatred is only for one nasty fascist moron, and not the entire Muslim population of the world (all one billion of them) and not for the entire male population of Mexico, whom Trump described as rapists. |
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// my hatred is only for one nasty fascist moron // |
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Who's that, then - Tyson Fury ? Trump may be a fascist, bigoted, racist, all of the above, but no-one (apart from Ronald Reagan, who was actually a Disney Corporation Animatronic) gets to be a billionaire and a presidential candidate of they're a moron. |
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// the entire male population of Mexico, whom Trump described as rapists. // |
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The delicious irony is that some of the more extreme militant feminists would wholeheartedly agree; they advanc the "All men are rapists" view. |
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So, now the militant feminists and Donald T. are in the same corner ... who'd have thought it ? |
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Wow, Xen and Ian, lots of hate today. |
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Ian, I think I obviously hit a nerve. I specifically
broadened the definition of success to be anything that
brings the person happiness and satisfaction. You don't
have to be a star, maybe you can just do something that
brings you happiness. You don't even need recognition,
just personal achievement that makes you feel good,
nobody else. And that ignited a xenophobic rage? |
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Ok Ian, what's your definition of success? Your definition
I'm talking about, not
anybody else's. Second question, are you successful by
your own definition of what success is? |
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/ the entire male population of Mexico, whom Trump
described as rapists. // |
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Can you send me the link or
video of Trump describing the entire male population of
Mexico
as rapists? I saw the one of him saying the following: |
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"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their
best. They're not sending you. (A Mexican man asking the
question) They're sending people that have lots of
problems, and they're bringing those problems with us.
They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're
rapists. And some, I assume, are good people." |
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When you have to twist the truth to make your point is
doesn't help your point. And me calling it twisting the
truth is being polite. Yea, ok, maybe he's a trillion times
worse than Hitler, but he never said that as far as I know. |
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But hey, send me proof and I'll stand corrected. |
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[doc], you shouldn't criticise like that if you're previously going to say things like //the hive mind socialists want to erase hope//, because that's actually pretty indiscriminate slandering of quite a wide swathe of opinion. |
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Well, what if that's what I believe right or wrong? I do think
there's big business in big government types selling misery
and hopelessness along with the idea that they're the cure
to one's wretched existence. This whole, "Life sucks and
there's nothing you can do about it but you're just a few
votes away
from paradise." thing. I think it's a scam. |
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I'm not inditing all socialist programs, some of which are
good. Fair enough? |
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[doctorremulac3] "They're rapists" (Mexicans) - that sounds like everyone to me. Good luck defending the words of one of the most vulgar morons that ever opened his mouth. His appeal is of course to the gung-ho, poorly educated, feeble minded, dumbed down, born again, and inarticulate..... ie a hill-billy constituency consisting of a very large number of people. |
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Meanwhile, I forgot to include that Donald Trump Clay Pigeons are sprayed with a harmless gold paint to add to their tackiness and increase airborne visibility. |
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//"They're rapists" (Mexicans) - that sounds like everyone
to
me// |
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Except the Mexican gentleman asking the question who
he
specifically referred to: "They're not sending you." and all
the people included when he wrapped up his comment
with
" And some, I assume, are good people." |
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Was he calling the assumed good people he referred to
rapists as well? |
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You don't have to answer, I won't embarrass you but
that's not what he said. |
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I'm not so much a fan of Trump as a detractor to this "two
minute hate" routine that's so popular in our society
among some groups. |
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I don't agree with certain politicians but I don't think it
serves anything to beat likeness of them to show the
world how much I hate them. That would just make me
look like an idiot. I can do that on my own without having
to beat effigies with a stick. |
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Well I suppose you know, as you seem to be his spokesperson here. It reads as "all Mexicans are rapists" to me. Does he actually like anyone? Chuck Norris I suppose? |
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You mean "If you love him so much why don't you marry
him?"? |
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Forgetting about Trump for a second, I think we should
give total control of who comes into the
country from now on to the Native Americans who were
here before the Europeans. Do you have a problem with
that? If you're European, I would say you have no moral
authority to have a problem with that. |
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I would say this, the Native Americans would probably not
be considering the need for Democrat votes and cheap
labor to drive down wages when deciding who gets to
come in and who doesn't. I'm not sure what their
criterion would be, but then again, as a descendant of
European immigrants it's really none of my business is it? |
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(holds microphone in outstretched arm, drops it, walks
off stage) |
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// I think we should give total control of who comes into the country from now on to the Native Americans who were here before the Europeans. // |
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Which is fine in principle, except all those people have now been dead for the best part of five hundred years. |
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How are you going to work that, spirit dancing ? A ouija board ? |
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<picks up microphone, surreptitiously inserts small pyrotechnic device, replaces on floor to await an unsuspecting victim, scuttles off sniggering> |
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//How are you going to work that, spirit dancing ? A
ouija board ?// |
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I'll be needing a big government grant to study the
problem. 20 million should get the ball rolling at least
enough to get our offices set up. Furniture, we'll need
some nice art on the walls. I'm going to need a private
box at the stadium as well and NO WAY am I flying
commercial so we'll need a private jet too. |
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To deny me this money is racist and probably a hate
crime. |
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Yes fair enough when you explain like that. |
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I’m actually intrigued by the Trumphobia. Are the other presidential contenders really such paragons of liberal democratic civilised tolerance and humanity? Is it worse to slander a certain demographic or to drop explosives on their heads? Modern morals are so confusing. |
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Maybe it's a typo and he meant therapists... |
|
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//Are the other presidential contenders really such
paragons of liberal democratic civilised tolerance and
humanity? Is it worse to slander a certain demographic or
to drop explosives on their heads?// |
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Hey, good point. As far as Muslims and the Middle East is
concerned,
Clinton voted to invade Iraq, Trump was dead set against
it. Said it would destabilize the area and we shouldn't get
involved. |
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Sorry folks, nobody likes the guy who brings facts to the
"Two Minute Hate" but: |
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"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence
reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild
his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile
delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also
given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including
al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left
unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his
capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and
will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 arguing for
invading Iraq. |
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“I do not believe that we made the right decision going
into Iraq, but, you know, hopefully, we’ll be getting out,”
Trump said on “Larry King Live” in November 2004. (One
year after the invasion) |
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Remind me which one's Hitler again? The one calling for
war right? No? I'm pretty sure old Adolph was a big fan of
the whole war thing. I'd say that's Hitler characteristic
numero uno. |
|
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And there's more. That same year here's his
interview with Esquire magazine. |
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"Look at the war in Iraq and the mess that we're in. I
would never have handled it that way. Does anybody
really believe that Iraq is going to be a wonderful
democracy where people are going to run down to the
voting box and gently put in their ballot and the winner is
happily going to step up to lead the country?," said the
host of NBC's "The Apprentice," whose hallmark line is
"You're fired." |
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"C'mon. Two minutes after we leave, there's going to be a
revolution, and the meanest, toughest, smartest, most
vicious guy will take over. And he'll have weapons of mass
destruction, which Saddam didn't have," Trump said in
excerpts of the interview released in advance to Reuters. |
|
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In a left wing article trying to say the early criticism of
the war wasn't "opposing it" they did admit "It’s true that
about a week after the March 2003 invasion, Trump
described the war as a “mess.”" |
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And I cut and pasted that, I didn't have to do any
switcharoo with the wording. |
|
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Are you Trump in disguise? |
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No, I don't even agree with half of what he says, but I'm
just
not a fan of this political hate stuff. People are putting
up
videos of their kids bashing pinatas of the guy saying how
much they want to kill him. Great message for children, if
you disagree with somebody, violence is the answer, not
dialog. "Let's kill people we have differences with!" |
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You seem like a nice person Xen, this mean stuff is below
you. From my perspective, I think Hillary Clinton is as
corrupt as
they come, but the idea of
defiling an image of her? Just dumb. |
|
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//I'm just not a fan of this political hate stuff// So you think Trump is not a hate merchant. Amazing. |
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You could make the targets out of flapjack,
then the animals would have more to eat. |
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I'd like to see how many would sign a petition
refusing reentry to Cameron (the dull tory, not
the AI in tscc) and/or everyone in the UK
chipping in 10p to me for never coming back. |
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An organization that collects money to be paid out to
politicians in return for them resigning? |
|
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For all of that Iraqi insight, Trump hasn't said five intelligent things the
entire race. He's still the travbm of American Politics. |
|
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Forgive me but these days the Rupubs sound more like mindless
collectivists than the Democrats. |
|
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Which group of Native Americans would you care to put in control?
The Cheyenne, who foughy for land with the Souix? Ir perhaps the
Iroquois nation? Native American 'states' were frequent invaders of
each other, and so that might be difficult. |
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I know it's a stupid point, but if Mac was so
smart, how come he never got to be a prince? |
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| |
I know it's a stupid point, but if Mac was so
smart, how come he never got to be a prince? |
|
| |
I know it's a stupid point, but if he was so
smart, how come he never got to be a prince? |
|
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He was REALLY smart. He got princes to pay him, and exercised power throught them. All the perks without the risks. |
|
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//So you think Trump is not a hate merchant.
Amazing.// |
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So you think YOU'RE not a hate merchant? Amazing. |
|
| |
//Which group of Native Americans would you care to
put in control? The Cheyenne, who foughy for land
with the Souix? Ir perhaps the Iroquois nation? Native
American 'states' were frequent invaders of each
other, and so that might be difficult.// |
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Good question. Here's the good answer. |
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| |
All these tribes now have areas that they control
These areas would be expanded to cover the entire
US. They would control immigration to these areas. |
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| |
Now it's fine to not like this idea, but realize you will
never again be able to be a good liberal by lamenting
the plight of the Native American at the hands of
European immigrants again having passed on the
opportunity to make amends by letting them control
future immigration. |
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| |
So if you don't like that idea, that's fine but you must
take the pledge. Raise your right hand and repeat
after me: |
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| |
"Believe that the Native American should not be in
control of who immigrates to their native lands." |
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| |
"Believe that the Native American should not be in
control of who immigrates to their native lands." |
|
| |
"And believe that control should be in the hands of
the European Americans alone." |
|
| |
"And believe that control should be in the hands of
the European Americans alone." |
|
| |
"Because we're better than they are." |
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| |
"Because we' re better than they are." |
|
| |
(Shakes hands) Congratulations, you're now officially
a racist. |
|
| |
... and presumably start fighting one another again. |
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| |
Perhaps. None of my business. |
|
| |
Remember, as a European American I have no say in
these things. |
|
| |
Hey, just following what the progressives tell me and
taking it to the next level. Remember, to disagree
with me or anybody else who espouses progressive
doctrine may be a racist hate crime. |
|
| |
Soon, failing to hate yourself for not being a member of an underrepresented and disadvantaged minority will be a crime, too. |
|
| |
Hear that knock on your door ? That's the Thought Police.... |
|
| |
Just go out and knock on your own door, save wasting taxpayers money waiting for the authorities to do it for you. |
|
| |
There's only one thing keeping us from absolute
totalitarian fascism: the utter and complete
incompetence of the groupthink hive-mind big
government types because at the end of the day,
they're really not that bright. |
|
| |
And we may thank providence for that fact. |
|
| |
Remember, the first thing these control freaks do
when they grab power, (after they kill non-believers
like me)
is to turn on themselves. A philosophy bent on war
doesn't usually have an end game that doesn't include
more war. Ask Robespierre about the fraternity of
revolutionaries. |
|
| |
Surprisingly, you had my full agreement with your
unexpectedly libertarian views up until: |
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| |
//a government should not expect health care to
make a profit — that’s just utterly stupid, it’s an
expense, a service, and is supposed to cost money,
not make it.// |
|
| |
Since I assume we can agree that medical research
and resultant medications and treatments are at the
center of a working health care system, let's look at
where that research is done. |
|
| |
Of the top ten medical companies, 7 are located in
your hated United States, one is in France, one in
England and one is an English/Swedish company. And
while 3 are located in countries that tend towards
democratic socialism, ALL of these companies are
stock market traded capitalist entities. |
|
| |
Ok Ian, let's say you're a genius. You can make
millions of dollars with your talent by working for a
huge biotechnology firm in America, or get a pat on
the head if you're lucky by doing the same work in
North Korea. |
|
| |
Where are you going to take your talent? Free market
or socialist paradise? That's why socialist paradises
don't create anything. Their only commodity is
control by fear of the people and the distribution of
what meager goods and services their anemic society
is able to produce. |
|
| |
As far as your other assertions that government
should stay the heck out of other areas of people's
lives, I agree whole heartedly, but when you say it
should stay out of business, which I also agree with,
you're
forgetting that making medicine is business. And if it
becomes government mandate, it quickly becomes a
stagnant and dead business. |
|
| |
Many more technologies we enjoy started in the
garages of free people than in shining government
buildings created by monolithic governments that are
sad monuments to waste and failure. And extremely
expensive monuments I might add. |
|
| |
Show me a medicine invented in the old Soviet Union
and
I'll show you a hundred invented in the free west. |
|
| |
Do us all a favor and know when you've carried on enough. |
|
| |
Nothing I said was racist, nor was it even implied. It was
simply pointing out the fact that the Europeans aren't the
only invaders throughout all of time. |
|
| |
//Do us all a favor and know when you've
carried on enough.// |
|
| |
If you can't say anything intelligent don't
pretend to represent some kind of intimidating
coalition. |
|
| |
//It was simply pointing out the fact that the
Europeans aren't the only invaders throughout all of
time.// |
|
| |
I'm being ironic Ray. Sorry you missed it. |
|
| |
Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. Anything
intelligent. Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. |
|
| |
This frankly isn't your idea. So, you first. |
|
| |
//Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent.
Anything intelligent. Anything intelligent. Anything
intelligent. This frankly isn't your idea. So, you
first.// |
|
| |
I now you are but what am I? |
|
| |
I decline to answer the question on Mark Twain's advice. |
|
| |
doctorremulac3, you do know that facebook is currently the cognoscenti's venue of choice for this sort of rigorous political and philosophical discourse, yeah? |
|
| |
Good, knock yourself out. |
|
| |
Are you talking about the "Donald Trump Clay
Pigeons" idea and it's associated political statement
or the numerous responses to it? |
|
| |
Can't win the argument, just insult or try to silence
the person
who's winning I guess. |
|
| |
//Can't win the argument, just insult or try to silence the person who's winning I guess//
Who can't win what argument?
Who is insulting who?
Who is silencing who?
Who is winning?
|
|
| |
//a government should not expect health care to make a
profit// |
|
| |
Actually, I would agree with that. Of course, people who
supply the health service with drugs and equipment
expect to make a profit, and should be allowed to do so,
so that they continue to innovate. But the health service
itself is a government-funded service to its citizens, which
they pay for through taxes (or, if the government is
unable to afford it, through insurance). As far as I know,
that's true in all civilized countries. |
|
| |
Equally, of course, education, the military, and
infrastructure should not be profit-making enterprises,
even though those supplying those systems may make a
profit. If you heard that the US military was running a
$40b profit, you'd probably worry. |
|
| |
But I digress - I appear to have wandered into a daylight-
deprivation-induced argument here, so carry on and may
the best 'baker win. |
|
| |
I'll just delete the entire idea, then repost it to decontaminate it of all the moronic Trumpisms. |
|
| |
OH! We're silencing doctorremulac3, the argument-winning arguer! I see. Well, please do carry on. |
|
| |
Does "trump" have the same meaning in the US as in
the UK? |
|
| |
When people read "Trump for the Whitehouse!", do
they? |
|
| |
Incidentally, Google Translate translates "mein" as
"mine" and "kampf" as "tussle", but "mein kampf" as
"mein kampf". |
|
| |
I don't have a problem with making sure people have
access to medicine if they're poor funded by the
government, but what doesn't work is the totally
socialist state trying to get anything done besides re-
distribution, such as the creation of new medical
technology. |
|
| |
Xen, if you think what somebody is saying is wrong,
just get in there and say what's wrong. You can't
expect everybody to agree with you. |
|
| |
Or you can just erase the whole thing along with all
the comments from both sides. Seems kind of childish
though. |
|
| |
//OH! We're silencing doctorremulac3, the
argument-winning arguer! I see. Well, please do carry
on.// |
|
| |
She'd be silencing you too genius. Even brilliant
contributions like: //*parp* / *hooonk* / *chufffff*
/ hang on hang on a minute / *truuummmp*// |
|
| |
Oho, no, that can't be the case, because I wasn't winning the argument. |
|
| |
It appears your argument has deteriorated into
typing random noises. |
|
| |
// I don't have a problem with making sure
people have access
to medicine if they're poor funded by the
government, but what
doesn't work is the totally socialist state trying to
get anything
done besides re- distribution.// |
|
| |
Well, I'm not sure. In the UK (and some other
European
countries), healthcare for all is paid for through
taxes, because the underlying philosophy is that
everyone is entitled to equally good healthcare.
It's not
perfect, but it does work much better for almost
everyone than
purely private healthcare, and its overall cost is
lower because
there isn't a profit motive all the way through the
system. We like
to whinge about it, of course, since it's a national
system, but it is
generally good. |
|
| |
(Slight digression into anecdotal example: when I,
my wife or our
daughter have needed any form of healthcare, it's
been through
the NHS and has been uniformly excellent. My
sister-in-law's rich
boss pays through the nose for private healthcare
and recently
had abysmal treatment.) |
|
| |
Waiting for this point to come up. |
|
| |
Yes, we have a hybrid system here too. A good thing
in my mind. I'm not sure how the private system that
gives poor service could possibly hope to survive.
Why would they continue to use it? If you're going to
pay more for something it has to be a lot better than
the equivalent free service no? |
|
| |
I've got very good private insurance and am very
happy with it. I know, one story among many but
should I become destitute, we have always had state
provided health care of some sort or another. Again,
a good thing in my mind. |
|
| |
See? Doctorremulac3; the bloodthirsty, hate
mongering capitalist with a heart of gold. |
|
| |
You know, with all the debate and arguing, has
anybody once ever changed their mind on something
discussed here? I doubt it. |
|
| |
I know I won't be the first to crack! ;) |
|
| |
For lack of perfect information I suppose? Propaganda
created by the creator of said poor service? Religion? |
|
| |
Godwin's law needs a corollary: any discussion remotely
touching on social democratic ideas will eventually invoke
comparisons between capitalism and the Soviet Union. |
|
| |
//your argument//
My what now? |
|
| |
// I'm not sure how the private system that gives
poor service could
possibly hope to survive. Why would they continue
to use it? If you're
going to pay more for something it has to be a lot
better than the
equivalent free service no?// |
|
| |
Interesting point. There are advantages to private
healthcare,
including things like faster access to consultants
for non-urgent
things; and more luxurious hospital
accommodation; and of course
"cosmetic" treatments such as breast enlargements
(which are only
available on the NHS in extreme cases). |
|
| |
However, the NHS's purpose is to provide all
necessary healthcare for
all people to a high standard, and to be free at the
point of care. It
is paid for by each according to their means - i.e.
through taxes
which relate to income. It generally does work
very well, especially
for a government-led organization. It also provides
free healthcare
for UK citizens travelling elsewhere in the EU, by a
complicated
reimbursement system (government-to-
government), even if the
host country doesn't have free healthcare. |
|
| |
Meanwhile, new treatments are developed by a
combination of government-funded research and
private companies, and this generally works well:
most of the top-revenuing drugs in the world
originated in the UK or depend on technology
licensed from the UK*. |
|
| |
(In fact, 5 of the top ten revenuers [Humira,
Remicade, Rituxan, Avastin and Herceptin] depend
on technology invented by my former boss and
licensed out by the UK-MRC - a government-funded
body.) |
|
| |
You know, this is embarrassing on my part that I
missed this enough to not ask it: |
|
| |
Do Europeans think we don't have medical care for
the poor in America? I'm sorry, I should rephrase that,
do SOME Europeans etc. |
|
| |
//You know, with all the debate and arguing, has anybody
once ever changed their mind on something discussed here?
I doubt it.// |
|
| |
Doubt away. Yes. It has happened. I am living proof. |
|
| |
This didn't use to be such an entrenched debate zone. |
|
| |
Ray, you're decrying the debates that have ALWAYS
been part of this site? They why are you joining in? |
|
| |
This idea was a political post about a political figure
so the associated commentary is probably going to be
political. What are we supposed to discuss? The part
where she feeds squirrels with the pieces of the
effigy of Trump's face? |
|
| |
And can we please stop posting the equivalent of
"Will everybody who disagrees with me shut up!" |
|
| |
Yes [MB] that's all well and good, for what little “facts and evidence” are worth in an argument like this, but, as, earlier, mentioned, above, systems, like this, are run by //hive mind socialists// who //want to erase hope//. By defending the system, you sound suspiciously like one of them. Shame on you! |
|
| |
No, the distribution of wealth is run by hive mind
socialists. Don't give them credit for medicine and
science. The advances in these areas come from free
markets and free minds. |
|
| |
And yes, there is a great deal of negativity from
these people. |
|
| |
//I should rephrase that, do SOME Europeans etc.// I am sure //some// think that, but a small number of people believe all kinds of strange things, such as that you can democratically reform a war-torn country using airstrikes. |
|
| |
No, most people over here who have thought about it, think that your system is inefficient and corrupt, that you spend a higher proportion of your money on healthcare for overall worse service. Whether that's a true thought I leave to others to illustrate. |
|
| |
//free markets and free minds// neither exists. |
|
| |
I do like the way you jumped behind Max and said
"He's insulting you! Let's get 'em!" |
|
| |
//Ray, you're decrying the debates that have ALWAYS
been part of this site? // |
|
| |
I've been here a few years longer than you. I've seen the
debates. I've been a party to them. The key difference
then was the debaters knew when to say when. And
most often, the fights were the exception. |
|
| |
I've known the good people who left when the spirit of it
changed, rather annoyed by it all. |
|
| |
When it comes down to 'The west is great, rah rah, all
collectivists want is for you to lose' |
|
| |
then it's simply time to pack it in because you've entered
Breitbartland. |
|
| |
There's argumentation for the purposes of trying to win
or trying to appear smart, and then there's knowing your
audience. |
|
| |
I don't want everyone who disagrees to shut up. I just
want you to. Just for now. Just on this one post. |
|
| |
Again, a generalization, an insult and no substantial
point. |
|
| |
//a small number of people believe all kinds of
strange things, such as that you can democratically
reform a war-torn country using airstrikes.// |
|
| |
Well, with Germany and Japan it took land troops as
well. |
|
| |
Hey, how do you tap out of these arguments? This
chain is getting boring. |
|
| |
Deal: As far as chains that I've been a part of,
anybody can post their last words on the subject
without rebuttal from me because I need to go
actually get something done today. Ray, Poc, etc. The
floor is exclusively yours. Have a great day and thank
you for the stimulating discussion. We didn't change
each other's minds this time, maybe next eh? |
|
| |
//Do Europeans think we don't have medical care for
the poor in America? // |
|
| |
I think most Europeans believe that the US has a
healthcare system for the very poorest - but that
nobody who isn't very poor would use it. That differs
from the UK system, where most people use the NHS
that they (most of them) pay for through taxes. |
|
| |
There are some good things about that system. |
|
| |
Anyway, what do you all think about Donald Trump? |
|
| |
I did once try clay pigeon shooting, though. Hit
about 50 of them in a row. Then some smartarse
started launching them with some sort of catapult,
which made it much harder. |
|
| |