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Glass ceilings institutionalized.
Some people might say that a college degree now is
equivalent to a grade school diploma 60 years ago?
Set a minimum wage and no one will pay more than
the minimum.
Start a union and become the next Jimmy Hoffa? |
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// Set a minimum wage and no one will pay more than the
minimum.//
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That's what folks said 60 years when the minimum wage was first
implemented as part of the New Deal, and it hasn't proven true yet. |
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I was hoping for Pay Scale According to Height... (I'll be rich some day) [ ] |
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[+] because this would also encourage people to get a better education. |
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Average college graduate salary is $46,000
according
to
SimplyHired. High School graduates average salary
is
$21,000.
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Regulations like this would only hurt the job
market
for those you seek to help. And why does
graduating
from college make you eligible for a higher salary,
beyond what the market bears? Someone has to
be paid more because they were in a fraternity
and spent at least a year in a drunken stupor, and
are able to muse philosophically on Tumbler
between lattes? |
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Looking at several job boards (Craigslist, Monster Jobs, Snag-A-Job,
CareerBuilder, etc) I've seen countless jobs with college degrees listed
in the requirements and offering a wage no higher than many entry-
level jobs with no degree requirement. About 4 years ago, I took a job
in Loss Prevention (I was a thief-catcher). My starting wage was
$12.00 per hour, no college degree or formal education required.
Looking through Craigslist just last week, I found a hotel looking for a
front desk receptionist which required a Bachelor's Degree and a
starting hourly wage of $9.80. The problem with this is that folks who
take such jobs are driving wages down for the rest of us by
encouraging employers to employ such practices. |
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Proffers hand to be shook... |
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You are taking a naive approach to comparing
wages. You can't
compare jobs in such unrelated fields directly by
wages and required
credentials, because you're not looking at the
totality of the
circumstances. You don't know what other benefits
the job as a hotel
clerk offers. I'm not just talking about things like
health coverage and
such, either. To a newly minted college graduate
with a degree in
hospitality management, a $9.80/hour job as a
front desk clerk could be
a critical “foot in the door” opportunity, and a way
to get an on-the-job
education in interacting with the public in such a
setting, all as a
stepping stone towards a career in management. A
job paying more
hourly just to catch people trying to rip off
electronics, on the other
hand, is a dead end for that person career-wise.
And some people may
simply prefer the hotel job, and are unwilling to
stand in a store
checking people's receipts for eight hours a day.
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The problem with your idea is the problem with all
minimum wage laws
—they reduce the number of available jobs, while
increasing the number
of people seeking those jobs. You can come up with
all sorts of sophistry
to explain why you think that's not true, and point
to all sorts of skewed
evidence to demonstrate otherwise, but it really
comes down to
Microeconomics 101. It's a simple matter of supply
and demand. Setting
an artificial floor for the supply (i.e. jobs available
at a given wage) and
demand (people willing to work at a given wage)
curves necessarily
creates a shortfall, unless that floor is below the
intersection of the two
curves (in which case it has no effect anyway,
because all jobs are filled
at a rate higher than the minimum wage).
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Setting a minimum wage for jobs requiring a
college degree would only
make the current problem facing college graduates
—an inability to find
jobs after graduation—even worse. [-] |
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That front desk job might be a good stepping stone towards a better
job, but itself is not worthy of a college education. It's an entry level
job that any highschool grad could be taught to do, and highschool
grads shouldn't have to compete with college grads for the same
jobs. |
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So college graduates should be denied entry level jobs
because they're overqualified? Or they should be given a
magical free pass to take higher level jobs, even if those
jobs require experience they could only have gained by
doing an entry level job? Your argument makes no sense
either way. Why bother getting a degree, if it will only be
an impediment to you getting a job?
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If the hotel specifies the job requires a degree, it's because
they're interested in attracting people with degrees. If they
think they can do that by paying $9.80/hour, then what
business is it of yours to tell them they should pay more?
Maybe they only want to attract people who are willing to
take a low paying job initially but want to advance quickly,
and feel that by paying more they will encourage people to
apply who aren't really looking for a career with the
company, but are simply filling time until their novel gets
published.
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Besides, this idea is fundamentally impossible to
implement. Employers would just stop “requiring” college
degrees, and simply refuse to hire anyone without one.
After all, if you have several qualified candidates, nobody
can fault you for picking the one with a college degree, and
nobody can prove you rejected other candidates based
solely on their (lack of) education. |
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//and highschool grads shouldn't have to compete with
college grads for the same jobs.//
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I think they should - in a free market, everyone is
free to do whatever they like - that includes going to
college, and it also includes being choosy about where
and for whom they work.
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If wages are being driven lower, that's fine - it
ultimately means there is more incentive for people to
start their own businesses and make money for
themselves, on their own terms.
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If the college graduate doesn't like working at a
$9/hour job on the front-desk of a hotel, great - they
should be going out and implementing their own ideas
out there for themselves, not getting caught in the
wage-slave world of selling their lives at a
predefined hourly rate.
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I recognise there are some arguments for regulating
for a minimum wage - but I think more damage is done
by the implicit idea that everyone should go out and
work for someone else, than is done by "exploitative"
wages.
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You can only be exploited if you limit yourself to
working for an exploiter - most of the time, that's
just not necessary. Instead of welfare, maybe a series
of government startup loans could be issue to
encourage people to sort their own lives out instead
of relying on the government to take responsibility
for them.
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I guess there will always be people who like the idea
of a kind of feudal serfdom, it is traditional after
all - but for me, it's the expectation of this as not
just the status quo - but the only-quo that presents
problems for the whole of society. |
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//If the hotel specifies the job requires a degree, it's because they're interested in attracting people with degrees. If they think they can do that by paying $9.80/hour, then what business is it of yours to tell them they should pay more? Maybe they only want to attract people who are willing to take a low paying job initially but want to advance quickly, and feel that by paying more they will encourage people to apply who aren't really looking for a career with the company, but are simply filling time until their novel gets published.//
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Companies can exploit people who want to 'get a foot in the door' by taking on low-paid workers or interns, with no intention of ever promoting them.
I think there's a distinct issue there. |
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//Companies can exploit...// //there should be
domestic quotas to reduce transport costs...//
//Impossible if your job is say, a welder...//
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A welder can be a jobbing welder, and, if he saves up
and buys some commercial property, can become an
artisanal welder and apply his skills accordingly - a
barrier to him being able to do that is any/all
legislation that he will have to adhere to in order to
ensure he hires appropriate folks to meet the latest
government fads, etc.
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All this government fiddling ever does is drive out
the smaller entrepreneurs, stifle local startups and
smother creativity. That welder might be able to put
his time into some new and innovative process, and
later, employ others to help distribute it, and still
maintain his craftmanship and expertise - but it's
much less likely to happen if at first, he has to
conform to all this mad legislation designed to impose
fairness and justice, but which ultimately ends up
shifting the injustice from one group of people onto
another.
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Maybe there should be a cap on the size a business
ought to be before they have to doff their
bureaucratic hats. i.e. encourage a slightly wild-west
business environment where there's no minimum wage
etc.
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OK, so there might be a few questionable practices,
but you can always play safe, and stay nice and
coorporate if you want (at a premium of course) two
tiers means more work gets done, and higher levels of
happiness, while stimulating more innovation. |
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I agree with everything that YTK said. The big
accounting firms churn a ton of college grads thru
their programs working crazy hours for almost
nothing. If you make it you can then go off and make
real money, if not, not. They are modern day
apprenticeships and critical mechanisms. Also as
someone who has hired lots of people, I can say that
degrees prove one thing, you are a finisher, and
possibly not much else, but finishing is important. |
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I should've expected stiff (and surprisingly reasonable) debate on
this here. I don't agree with a lot of what's been said but I can see
where it's coming from and can imagine such ideas working. |
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Business under 50 employees have very few
bureaucratic hoops to jump through, at least on
the federal level in the US. This is specifically to
reduce pressure on startups, although it does
unfairly favor "tech" companies that become
multimillion dollar entities with five people and a
server.
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As far as the other, a college degree should be no
guarantee of salary. What you study, how you
study, what you learn beyond classes, all of that
matters. If you go and get a PhD in underwater
basket weaving, no one is going to pay you any
more than they would a high school grad.
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In real terms, a theatre arts degree or a music
performance degree mean nothing if you can't
actually audition well enough to make a living at it.
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If you
get an associates degree and qualify as an RN,
that's a different story, but not many of them are
making minimum wage. (And even there, passing
the qualification test matters more than the
degree).
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I was probably significantly overpaid for the first
six months to a year out of school, and I remain
grateful that the company that hired me was
willing to take the time to take me from an idiot
with a degree and a head full of formulas to a
functional machinery design
engineer. |
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//Companies can exploit...//
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I'm not clear whether you thought your following comments addressed this point or you just forgot.
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To be clear I don't think 21's proposal would address this, I was only responding to ytk's enthusistic defence of the business practice of having a low entry wage.
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To my mind what would happen if the "tiered minimum wage" proposal were implemented is that businesses would simply stop asking for credentials they didn't actually need, for low-paid positions.
I don't think that would be a bad thing at all. But this does only address relatively low-paid jobs, not all jobs.
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Apparently, there's a gender disparity in how people approach job advertisements - if men don't have a mentioned requirement they tend to apply anyway, while women do not [1]. If the requirements are fluid or irrelevant then this is not good for either the business or a better candidate who excluded themselves, although I suppose it does help brash men.
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[1] This is only a tendency. I can report that I have not applied for any job which had any qualifications I didn't have. I always assumed they meant it. |
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Hi [Loris] yes you're right - I didn't mean to miss it
off specifically, but ended up lumping it in with
the other calls for regulation of other
unfairnesses, disparities and inequities.
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Specifically though then, yes there is a degree of
exploitation - but then one person's exploitation
is another one's "working up through the ranks",
"doing one's time" etc. If done appropriately, it
should be temporary at best.
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//It's amazing how business types spout "Well
start your own company!" as if 'business' was the
trade of all people. It isn't. Most people make,
think or design in domains other than money.// I
know what you mean - but "business" is just taking
responsibility for finding your own niche. There
are lots of folks who don't think or design in
monetary terms - and they can be the most
successful ones.
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Yes, there's a lot of monetary hanger's on, but
usually it's not long before someone recognises
them for what they are - and while I do recognise
that in some (maybe even many) instances,
there's a money-first reality-second thing that
gets in the way, I don't think that patronage is the
best alternative.
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Having ground myself into the dirt for numerous
rich folks, later discovering that my loyalty to
them wasn't in the least reciprocated - I know how
that feels - for me, the best thing to do is to
freelance and I relish the sense of (potentially
illusory) freedom that provides me.
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In the tech, design and who knows, any other
industries, edge is often what sells, and
unfortunately money gets in the way of edge. The
sweet spot is getting a group of people together
who trust and engage with one another, in order
to get *something cool* done - and the money
should come almost as an afterthought of that. |
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I don't think that's stupid - but neither do I think
// The global economy is rotten to its core
principles as it benefits who ? God ? People ?
Morality ?// has any sense either - it's just a bunch
of unaffiliated people doing their own thing. If
you want to bring, god, people or morality into
your life, nobody should be there to stop you.
Equally, I don't think any of those things should be
legislated for either. That's what your church, and
your local community/society is there to do.
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Government should be in the business of trashing
monopolies, and enforcing contracts - and for me,
that's about it. All the rest should be managed by
society and the people in it - leaving these things
up to governments opens the door to abuse, in so
many different and horrible ways.
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Economics (i.e. people doing what people do)
shouldn't be divorced from any of those things -
but it shouldn't be centrally dictated either. |
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// you go and get a PhD in underwater basket weaving, no one is
going to pay you any more than they would a high school grad. //
That isn't true at all. As has been stated previously, many employers
don't care what degree you have, they only care that you
demonstratd the dedication to finish school and GET the degree.
Take the US military, for instance. Any Bachelor's degree qualifies
you to go into training to become a commissioned officer, and an O1
makes close to the same salary as an E5.
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//A theater arts degree... means nothing if you can't actually audition
well enough// That's somewhat true, if your goal is to become an
actor. If you want to become an agent, talent scout, or theater
manager, on the other hand, that sort of degree can mean quite a lot
if you think you're going to be taken seriously.
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I never said EVERY job that requires a degree is underpaying its
employees, but quite a lot of them do. |
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