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If you subject granite to a high pressure oxidizer can the
reaction be exothermal? I realize that the components of
granite are already oxidized but what if you can form a
multi-
compound complex reaction which is exothermal i.e.
involving
fe(II)=>fe(III) and less nobel metals pushed to more
oxidation
than more noble metals. If you look at this video, there
seems
to be more energy than than the reaction with iron wooll, is
the rock itself reacting exothermically:
see link [link] Likewise,
termite may create a lot of heat and could be composed of
oxides of different metalls. The components SiO2, Al2O3,
K2O,
Na2O, CaO, FeO, Fe2O3, MgO, TiO2, P2O5, MnO (see
wikipedia
for percentages) gives plenty of room for reactions. Oxygen
is
cheap, and can be separerad from the atmosphere using
little
extra energy. So, can you use granite as a viable cheap
energy
source?
Video och oxygen melting granite?
https://www.youtube...watch?v=EA-VCaBUsCA
[janpeternordin, Mar 07 2018]
Gibbs free energy
https://en.wikipedi...i/Gibbs_free_energy
" ... can be used to calculate the maximum of reversible work ... " [8th of 7, Mar 07 2018]
Atmospheric history
http://pubs.acs.org...2/html/12learn.html
[bs0u0155, Mar 08 2018]
Spaghetti thermic lance
https://www.youtube...watch?v=mKZtb6dTWSY
[2 fries shy of a happy meal, Mar 09 2018]
Aspergers for the dyslexic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asparagus
Very tasty. [8th of 7, Mar 10 2018]
FreePower
small_20FreePower!_20electrical_20devices
from radio waves [Skewed, Mar 12 2018]
enthalphy rock
http://www.minsocam...n/AM57/AM57_524.pdf
[janpeternordin, Mar 12 2018]
[link]
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[janpeter], the guy in the video is using a thing called a
"thermal lance", in which metal (in this case, I think it's
steel, i.e. iron) is burned in oxygen. The steel wool is
used to help start the burning because steel wool has a
high surface area and low thermal mass, making it easy to
start. It acts a bit like the tinder of a wood fire. But
ultimately the energy is coming from the oxidation of the
steel pipe. (Listen to the video - he tells you this.) |
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Most rocks are, as you noted, already very well reduced
and are in the stoichiometrically lowest state they can
be. However, some rocks are not fully oxidised, and can
indeed be burned to liberate energy. Coal is an example. |
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Ooh, there's an idea... burn coal! |
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Sulfur is also a rock that can burn. |
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The thing about silicate rocks is that silicate is a polymer,
much like many carbon compounds (example:
polyethylene) are polymers. Do note a significant
difference in that most carbon polymers have lots of
hydrogen, which means carbon-hydrogen chemical bonds
can be broken and replaced with carbon-oxygen and
hydrogen-oxygen chemical bonds (and so most carbon
polymers are flammable). |
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But hydrogen is not a notable constituent of silicate
polymers. The metal atoms that are part of the polymer
are bonded to oxygen atoms which in turn are bonded to
silicon atoms. So, while you could break one of those two
bonds in order to create separate silicon-oxygen and
metal-oxygen bonds, there is no net energy gain in doing
so. |
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About the only way one might manage an energy gain
begins with the **IF** that some atom has multiple
bonding possibilities (iron,
for example, can form either two or three bonds with
other atoms), and the **IF** that in the natural rock only
the
smaller-number of bonds exists. (Such rocks do exist; see
magnetite, for example --but that's not a silicate!) In
that case you could
get energy from forcing those atoms to form additional
chemical bonds (presumably with oxygen, since that is
the Idea here). I'm guessing only a small fraction of the
atoms in silicate rock has that type of potential, and so
you likely would put more energy into modifying the rock
to get at those atoms, than you get energy out in
oxidizing them. |
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Thanks, I could still see some reactions taking place where
FeO is further oxidized as an example. The video does not
show the lance burning in this case ( which I agree is the
usual
case for a thermal lance which is consumed). But i.e. Mn
should also be prone to
further oxidization in several steps, as well as Ti. Maybe Si
would go to a further oxidation state and Ti might even
react with som included N. Al has a multitude of oxidation
states and might help in the overall reaction. P might be
further oxidized or reduced or even react with the metals.
Trace elements are known catalysts. Then we have the
stoichiometric "half-states". The queastion is how big is the
available energy (if any) and what could be realized with a
cheap oxidizer like oxygen under "cheap" pressure? It would
be ironic if the world's "energy crises" could be solved by
rocks available to anyone. |
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If I remember correctly there is something called Hess' law
and Gibb's law which makes the energy content easier to
calculate. |
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Gibb's law allows you to calculate net change in entropy using Gibbs Free Energy. |
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Don't make us do physics at you ... |
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There's a better formulation on offer now ... <link> |
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["Don't make us do physics at you ... "] |
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well I'm a professor in physics so I wouldn't mind :) |
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Here is a reference to something slightly different but still
indicate useful enthalpy [link] |
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https://academic.oup.com/
petrology/article/
42/4/673/1495774 |
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and yes english is a language I only learnt in shcool if you
are
bothered by that pls answer in a language you only learnt
in
school, and yes I'm, dyslexic even in my natal tongue, and
so
was Einsten :) |
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You deleted my annotation didn't you? |
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If you delete annotations you can get kicked out of the HB. Are you aware of this? It's in the help file. "Good ways of getting kicked out are to ....... to persistently delete other users' criticism of one's inventions......" Standards are slipping here. This is the second time today that I've had to post this reminder to stick to the rules here. De rules are de rules mr professor, even for someone with iron wool sheep that can be moved from field to field with magnets instead of a sheep dog. |
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There's nothing at all wrong with having dailysex ... |
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//answer in a language you only learnt in school// |
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Salve, [jpn]. Cave quid petas, ne recipias. |
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You're clearly implying you have some level of knowledge &
competence in the subject. |
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Professor is a teaching title & does not in itself
denote any
degree of
competence or education in a subject. |
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Though of course it is "desirable" that one teaching others
in a subject actually know what they are talking about it
doesn't automatically follow & isn't really even necessary as
all you really need to teach effectively is be one lesson
ahead of the students in the text book you teach from. |
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As evidence of this I hold up personal experience.. many a
time in my youth I experienced classes with educators who
didn't know a thing about the subject they were teaching,
and not all of those where locums. |
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Which may of course help explain the woeful state of my
own knowledge (in b4 8th says something similar ;p). |
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This statement (of yours) really says nothing at all about
your qualifications or level of education in the subject. |
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If you really do mean it as "teacher" it should
be "of physics" not "in physics" & if you meant it as a
meaningful
measure of your knowledge on the subject you should have
said what level
you
teach to (primary or secondary school or university
degree level etc).. or at least your students ages. |
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He has sheep covered with metal wool! I think we need to see them. |
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Salve, [pertinax]. Mater tua criceta fuit, et pater tuo redoluit
bacarum sambucus. Gaudium meum, et calix meus inebrians,
quam ego nunc Google invenimus interpretari (it's having
problems with that last bit though I think) :) |
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You can oxidize something already linked to oxygen with Chlorine or Fluorine. So, just stir your powdered granite into liquid fluorine. Chlorine gas can be made from electrolysis of saltwater. You could use piezoelectric levered tide-thingies (gravity) to make voltage to produce the chlorine. |
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No energy from the rocks though, just the gravity. |
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Granite contains many piezoelectric minerals, so in
theory... |
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//Granite contains many piezoelectric minerals, so in
theory...// |
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You could be the sort of fool to hang around at fault lines
with a multimeter babbling about how "she's gonna blow!". |
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Or.... you could be the pro-active type and apply modest
voltages to various parts of the fault to see what happens. |
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Oh, and the idea. I should address that. Can you oxidize
some rock in an exothermic manner? Yes. So we're not in
crazy land. What would be required? Well, you'd have to
go and get your candidate rock, oxidize it and then take
the result away. Even if you do your oxidizing on-site, you
still have to move the product away, so there's going to
be a lot of rock transporting. What are you going to get
out of it? Well, you could go traditional and try and make
a lot of heat for a standard power station. This is unlikely
since you're adding O2 to rock at a very small ratio, you'll
get a little low-grade heat that will mostly just go into
warming up your waste product a bit. |
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//cheap oxidizer like oxygen under "cheap" pressure?// |
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The problem is the Earth already got in on this gig. We're
used to our current relatively stable atmosphere, but it
was different before all the climate change. <link> Go
back 2.5 billion years and your candidates for fuel are
amazing. There were chunks of metallic iron/manganese
lying about the place. The atmospheric pressure might
have been 90 Bar, ideal. No oxygen though. Oxygen turns
up, and the oxidation starts. All your good candidates
have had a few thousand million years to grind around, in
and out of water.. there's a reason, even deep
underground, that nobody stumbles on a chunk of
metallic calcium. |
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All isn't lost though, the world isn't homogeneous, and
maybe you can get clever and find some viable further
oxidation. Perhaps you get really clever and do it
electrochemically, extract a useful voltage from your
redox pair. Sadly, life has been in on this gig since before
oxygen was a lad. Everywhere a little energy can be
gained by swapping oxidation states, life has a full suite
of bacteria that do it until the doing is done. The REALLY
clever trick was using a remote nuclear fusion reactor to
push back up the energetic hill and use the waste product
to build stuff. Although the scary graph in Fig 7 of the link
suggests that trick makes rock out of atmosphere until...
the intercept. |
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What would be just dandy, is if a super-reduced material
could be found, maybe in solid, liquid and gas form. |
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//What would be just dandy, is if a super-reduced material could be found, maybe in solid, liquid and gas form.// |
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coal, wood... any hydrocarbon really, by definition. |
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Beyond that, the idea appears to be valid : a partially oxidised metal won't naturally tend towards more oxidation if there's a high catalytic requirement to start the ball rolling. |
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It'd be cool if Silicon had lower-energy oxidation states than SiO2 (no idea if it does or not) - plenty of sand around. |
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Anyways [+], and welcome to the HB [edit: welcome back] [janpeternordin] - paragraph breaks, please. |
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He/she's been around since 2013.... typing about one word
every two weeks, and knitting wire wool jumpers in
between. |
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We love the smell of napalm in the morning … |
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But alkali metals are much, much more fun. |
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Or chlorine trifluoride … hypergolic with almost everything. |
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//hypergolic with almost everything// |
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Sometimes the pure excitement of youth seems
unattainable. Sometimes you read a phrase like that
and it's back. |
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I had no idea halfbakery had been taken over by trolls,
sad... |
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Being mean is something I'm good at, but I'll be the bigger
man
this time...
....Anyway :Sad... |
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????really???? did you *see* the video (at least 2000K) |
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And yes you may have forgotten the pleasures of daily sex I
understand that. |
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(and to still your curiosity I'm a so called "full professor" at a
famous University.)
Re: Tstate, said **famous** not infamous |
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Salve, and google translate sends its regards regarding your
last
tete-a-tete.
(....Scribo vobis ut ego puto melius lingua) |
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and I have dyslexia and have in old age given up the extra
hasssle of trying to hide that unless I'm writing for Nature or
similar...
"never trust a man who only can spell a word in one way..."
Mark T |
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Thanks to all with serious answers (would recommend you
to check the oxidation numbers of the components before
answering) |
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great humour, great humour |
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But why God must we deal with the Dunning–Kruger effect,
isn't cancer enough... |
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//I'm a so called "full professor" at a famous University//
Trumpstate? I hear it's tremendous. |
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// I had no idea halfbakery had been taken over by trolls, sad... // |
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"Join us ... don't be afraid ...." |
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// Being mean is something I'm good at, // |
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You'll fit right in then, like a maggot in a dead cat*.... |
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// but I'll be the bigger man this time.// |
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????really???? did you *see* the video (at least 2000K) // |
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It's an impressive bit of footage. |
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// And yes you may have forgotten the pleasures of daily sex I understand that. // |
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You misunderstand. [IT] is notorious for having sex multiple times per day, it's just that he's the only one involved. |
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// (and to still your curiosity I'm a so called "full professor" at a famous University.) // |
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There is a certain cachet to being, for example, a half-professor at an infamous University. |
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// Salve, and google translate sends its regards regarding your last tete-a-tete. (....Scribo vobis ut ego puto melius lingua) // |
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<irrelevant Ipsos Lorem muttering > |
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// and I have dyslexia and have in old age given up the extra hasssle of try to hide that unless I'm writing for Nature or similar... // |
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Wasted effort, after all people like [MB] and [bs0u0155] usually have their copies read to them by the attendants in their places of confinement. |
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// "never trust a man who only can spell a word in one way..." Mark T // |
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// Thanks to all with serious answers (would recommend you to check the oxidation numbers of the components before answering) // |
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Well, we always do. [MB] is fine as long as you don't use anything more exotic than Sulphur, that way he can count the oxidation on the digits of one hand. (Don't mention Chlorine Tetroxide or he gets peevish, and don't mention his, er, anotomical errata. Centuries of inbreeding will do that, sadly. ) |
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// great humour, great humour // |
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// But why God must we deal with the Dunning–Kruger effect, isn't cancer enough... // |
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Why are wasps attracted to jam ? Same thing. |
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yeah, Tstate could be tremendous for people like you, who are
"not even wrong".
'Could write rekommendation letter for ya...
My letter head will make them sh*t in their pants... |
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size DOES matter... she's *lying* to you...
sorry to be the one to break it to ya.... |
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nope, since in this case sex with yourself and domestic
animals does
not count... |
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heard of brittish english "BE" they kinda invented the
language |
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Dichlorine heptoxide works for me |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/
List_of_oxidation_ states_of_the_elements |
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//halfbakery had been taken over by trolls// |
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[8th of 7] is not actually in charge. |
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On a different note, would you be so kind as to post your
oxidation states link as a link? |
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// [8th of 7] is not actually in charge. // |
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Are the Voices In Your Head particularly loud and insistent today, [pert] ? |
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Just go and lie down in a darkened room for a bit. Resistance is Futile. You will be Assimilated. |
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DIY thermic lance. [link] |
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A little garlic bread and your good to go. |
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... with just a soupçon of punctuation, of course. And an "e". Its a small thing, but important in it's way ... |
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We will be happy to donate a surplus greengrocer's apostrophe', if that will be of assistance... |
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anal - just got a new defining standard |
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I have nothing against those with asperger's |
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Yes, very nice served with butter along with steamed salmon fillet. |
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love the smell of bullies crying |
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I've nothing useful to add regarding the merits of the idea
itself but I do wonder if burning more stuff & using more
oxygen is really the way we want to go, I seem to recall
hearing the oxygen in the air is already in
decline as it is? so Shirley we should be moving away from
fuels that burn. |
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//it would be ironic if the world's "energy crises" could be
solved by rocks available to anyone// |
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What energy crisis, or rather "we really shouldn't have one",
as I understand it we're practically swimming in it. |
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Radio waves (link to some appropriate prior art..
presumably
this includes cosmic background radiation?), infra red,
sunlight (solar panels, solar furnaces, etc), water turbines
(rivers), wave turbines (sea), wind turbines, thermoelectric
generators (seeing as I just suggested we (maybe) not burn
stuff for a change I won't add bio-diesel & fuel-alcohol to
the list), I would go on, but with my limited education
that's all I can think of. |
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Geothermal, I knew there was another one in there
somewhere :) |
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Finnally found a paper showing it should indeed be possible:
[link]
http://www.minsocam.org/ ammin/ AM57/ AM57_524.pdf |
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From the linked paper ... |
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// much of this discrepancy could be caused by a gross
error in the basic thermochernical pararneters lor the aluminum
silicates // |
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Now I'm no expert, but this remark on page 1 suggests to me that
someone has got something badly wrong, and the authors are
really hoping it was someone else. ;-) |
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//thermochernical pararneters// Those things are
dangerous. |
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