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A bipolar condition can involve fluctuation between
difficulty in seeing the positives and difficulty in seeing
the negatives, sometimes with associated beliefs which
correlate poorly with those of the majority. This could be
seen as a vertical fluctuation in one's mood - sometimes
it's up,
sometimes down.
This is not the only option. One could also weave back and
forth. That is, one's beliefs could simply become poorly
supported by evidence to an increasing degree, entering a
state where one is positively, or perhaps forwardly,
delusional, then swing back to an opposite state of
negative delusion, or backwardly delusional.
In the second state, rather than having ideas which are
intrusive, overvalued and held persistently in spite of
evidence to the contrary, one could have ideas from which
one is apathetic, considers unimportant and held
persistently in spite of evidence in favour. In other words,
one might become solipsist or extremely sceptical, living
subjectively not in a world of one's own but of others'.
The Cotard Delusion is the belief that one is dead or does
not exist. This is the kind of thing i have in mind, except
that i'm also thinking of excessive rationality.
To be honest, i'm not sure this makes any sense at all, but
in a couple of days it will, then two days later it won't
again, and so on.
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It's called "Jointing The Liberal Democrats", and it's Baked. |
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Excuse me, I have to go visit a two-bit shrink about a half-baked
mental condition. |
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Minus Cotard's Syndrome, this is a fairly apt description of
what I did last
Wednesday. |
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I might be being dim here*, but (a) I don't quite
see what it is that you're proposing and (b) I don't
at all understand. |
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Are you inventing a new mental disorder? |
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You seem to be proposing a mood swing which is
orthogonal to the {oversimplified} up/down of the
bipolar disorder which we all know and love. But
then I don't see the distinction between bipolar's
mania/depression and your positively-
unsupported and negatively-unsupported states. |
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Perhaps there's yet another orthogonal bipolarity
which alternated between understanding
halfbakery ideas and not understanding halfbakery
ideas. If so I am in the latter state. |
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*obviously not; this was intended as rhetoric. |
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//This sounds like a description of// |
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In which case it's a description of straightforward
bipolar. Bipolar is a complete stripping away of all
illusions in one state, and an overabundance of
illusions in the other. |
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Unfortunately, I haven't worked out which of
those two states corresponds to the highs and
which to the
lows. |
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//Confidence really needs a vehicle, a project, and if you haven't currently got one then its great to be a sheep for a bit.// Or a horse for a bit. |
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Further, following the sage advice: |
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When in danger or in doubt,
Run in circles, scream and shout. |
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and assuming the non-euclidian topography implied, would someone who is both bipolar and biequatorial run clockwise or anticlockwise? |
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Would a person with this disorder exhibit Lissajous
fluctuations, instead of boring old mood swings? |
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I see up-and-down mood swings and fore-aft mood swings... what about side-to-side mood swings? And would this 'condition', (detest the word disorder, disorder implies that the norm must be the propper order, and that just ain't so), be called multi-lobal? |
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//multi-lobal// Polylobal? |
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I've described the swings as fore and aft rather
than sideways because sideways would mean left
and right, and it would make it sound like
someone was a floating voter or something. |
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[MB], i'm very attached to the idea of depressive
realism, but depression can also include unrealistic
beliefs, for instance that one is unlucky, that one
is dead or that people close to one are in danger,
so it's possible to be depressed about the wrong
things. Depression can involve the acquisition of
false beliefs. |
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I have a sort of Aristotelian view of virtue and vice
here. The vices of cowardice and recklessness are
opposite ends of a spectrum with courage
between the two (but not in the middle). Mental
health could be seen similarly. Without attributing
blame, depression could be seen as a vice, i.e. a
cognitively maladaptive approach, where
difficulties are imagined and negative beliefs
emphasised. A manic state is the opposite: ease
is imagined and positive beliefs emphasised. |
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It seems to me that there is something missing
from the picture of mental health. Looking at
mental illness and health as a spectrum of adaptive
behaviour, at one end there are minority beliefs
and overvalued ideas. These two things seem to
encapsulate most of what are generally thought of
as mental health problems: phobias, harmful
paraphilias, obsessions, paranoia, schizophrenia
and bipolar disorder - to me, all of these seem to
fit that model. But where's the other half? Where
are the mental health problems which involve
insufficient obsession, the lack of rational fear,
belief systems which err too far on the side of
caution? Solipsism would be an example of this
kind of problem. However, one could be happy
and solipsistic. |
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I'm saying that for some reason we see only one
side of the spectrum. Is this because the other
side doesn't exist or that what we think of as
mentally healthy often isn't? |
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// this was intended as rhetoric // |
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It may well have been intended that way; unfortunately it was assumed to be a simple and obvious statement of fact. |
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// orthogonal to the {oversimplified} up/down of the bipolar disorder which we all know and love // |
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By logical inference, the 1-D "continuum" of Bipolar disorder could be thus be projected into 3 or even 4 dimensions. |
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// Lissajous fluctuations // |
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Oooh, that would be a bad sine .... |
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// depression can also include unrealistic beliefs, for instance that one is unlucky, that one is dead or that people close to one are in danger // |
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.. or indeed that the part you're playing in a Coalition government is in some way meaningful. Like we said, the Liberal Democrats. |
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// there is something missing from the picture of mental health. // |
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It's that bit top left, there's a bit of sky and part of a tree on it. Shake the box, it may have got caught somewhere. Then look under the table. |
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//Where are the mental health problems which involve insufficient obsession, the lack of rational fear, belief systems which err too far on the side of caution? // |
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They're classified under "essential qualities of character" for some careers. |
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// Solipsism would be an example of this kind of problem. // |
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No, it wouldn't, since the "problem" would only exist in the "minds" of the constructs with which the thinker populated their imaginary world. |
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// However, one could be happy and solipsistic. // |
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Possibly, however the assertion is not amenable to proof. |
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//Where are the mental health problems which
involve insufficient obsession, the lack of rational
fear, belief systems which err too far on the side
of caution? // |
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i) //insufficient obsession// - classic depression -
lack of appetite, motivation, loss of "meaning" in
life - lack of any kind of belief positive, or
negative. |
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ii) //lack of rational fear// - classical
sociopath/psychopath |
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iii) //belief systems which err too far on the side
of caution?// OCD, paranoia, neuroses etc |
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//Is this because the other side doesn't exist or
that what we think of as mentally healthy often
isn't?// |
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I think it's the result of taking "Bipolar" as a straw-
man, suggesting that it is a catchall describing
*any* possible definition for mental health
problems (which, perhaps it is becoming - it's
certainly more fashionable, in the same way
"neurotic" was fashionable in the late 'seventies,
or "depressed" was in the 'eighties etc) and
highlighting the emergent problems that might
exist with that approach, were things that way
organised. |
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I quite like the idea of scepticism being relabelled
as a mental illness, but at the same time, I don't,
as it suggests there's some kind of authoritative
judgement that can be made around someone's
internal dialog that can be decided upon as being
right or wrong. I'd much prefer it if we were to all
step away from labelling things as being linked to
mental health, and instead talk about (maybe
even teach) pragmatic techniques for clear
introspection and effective mood management. In
some countries this might be called Meditation, or
Praying - I was encouraged to hear the other day
that there have been some scientific backed
evidence promoting a secular form of meditation
known as "mindfulness" that (I seem to recall) has
been shown to promote general health and
wellbeing. |
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// I quite like the idea of scepticism being relabelled as a mental illness // |
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We don't believe you. We think you're just saying that for undisclosed motives of your own, and actually have quite different opinions. |
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We quite like the idea of paranoia being relabelled not as a mental illness, but as a rational approach to an implacably hostile and unpredictable Universe. |
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Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only genuinely crazy person*
left in the world. Then I stumble across a discussion like
this one and it reminds me that there are at least a few
others, either discussing or being discussed. |
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(*If anyone thinks I'm joking, consider this: I wasn't kidding
about last Wednesday. I'm really that nuts.) |
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Ditto.
Severe alienation just made me slightly paranoid, introspective and overly analytical about the motivations of others... at least once I stopped trying to be like everyone else. |
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Before that was... well it was not so good. |
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I've given a lot of thought to mental illness.
When you see enough loved ones and other people drown in their own minds it really makes you wonder. Made me wonder anyway. |
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When the alienation and plain 'ol shit 'n abuse were too much growing up and I started developing these various... I called them quirks, looking back I suppose they were budding psychosis, (that word tastes bad on the tongue), there was no way to really stop them. If I clamped down on one, another would take its place. They were... defense mechanisms.
My mind was trying to heal itself. Since I'd seen what happens to others when they lose their grip and realised I was well on my way to losing my own I let it do what it seemed so bent on doing.
If it was going to shatter anyway maybe I could control the break and hold the peices together, so I... I dunno, I jumped down its throat.
I made it show me just how bad-ass it was. (bit of a hail Marry pass there)
When it had finished with me, (let me tell ya, it has control of each and every single one of the glands in your body and its apertures), and I was still egging it on... then all of those other quirks vanished like the smoke that they were, other than the one I gave it for its own. |
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Since then, it feels like I'm doing the opposite of lucid dreaming. Like the part of my mind normally asleep is awake with me. Like it never wanted to have to put me through those things, it just wanted to heal so the more I fought it, the worse it got. |
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Now take this for what it's worth, I have no education on the subject just my own experiences, but I think that by treating the individual symptoms of mental illness we do the exact opposite of what folks really need in order to cope. |
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I guess what I'm saying is that there is a purpose to mental illness. I think that our minds have been trying to this thing I stumbled onto by circumstance and chance for a very long time... and that it didn't need to be so damned hard. |
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If it's crazy, well...
well then you can just keep sane. |
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I don't exist in a salary kind of way and to some
extent i'm being disingenous here but with a serious
purpose. This is sort of like those fake diagnoses for
happiness and neurotypical states of mind. I don't in
fact think of mental illness in this way. |
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// The salaried part of me is a waste of my time and existence // |
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... and hence it follows by logical inference that the non-salaried part of you is a waste of everyone else's time and existance. |
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//Point of ordnance here// Point of ordure, shirley? |
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// a homogenising collective // |
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"Hegemonising collective". A "homogenising collective" would be a set of cybernetically enhanced life forms who were largely focussed on ensuring the even distribution of fats throghout liquid or semi-liquid dairy products. |
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Uh, oh ... yes. Well, yes, that's right. As you were. |
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Suicidal tendencies too ... |
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// Point of ordure, shirley // |
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No, definitely //Point of ordnance // i.e. the Naughty End of the pointy contact-fused HE-filled artillery round on which we have just painstakingly inscribed, "To [bigsleep], with undying malice, hatred and extreme prejudice". |
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Nothing personal, [bigs]. It's the cats thing, we're sure you understand. |
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//Hegemonising collective// I thought it was a
hegemonising smarm? |
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Collectively speaking, yes. |
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// hegemonising smarm? // |
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That's quite different; a very small group of unctious, wheedling, self-important prats. So small, in fact, that the correct collective noun is a "Milliband". |
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