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Accents on NumPad

 Place letter accents on the NumPad
  (+11)(+11)
(+11) 		  [vote for,
against]

Accents will appear on the num pad, alongside the numbers and arrows. The accents will be accessable by first pressing the new 'Accent Lock key'. This will de-activate the Num Lock key, and likewise, the Num Lock key will de-activate the Accent Lock Key. To get an accent, you hold down the letter and the accent that you want above it. N more fiddling about with fancy key combinations that require expert timing and three hands, all you would need with this system is two fingers.
—[ sctld ], Jul 18 2002

Concept Drawing http://brycesites.8k.com/
Click on numpad.gif [[ sctld ], Jul 30 2002]


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       ï tåke it thìs ís før thë bénéfit õf oûr førëign lánguàge sùbsçribérs?   

       (I always liked the Mac method, for which Microsoft has provided an analog in Word - hold down Ctrl, press ', then press e - voilà, instant accent).
—DrCurry, Jul 18 2002
   

       The best thing about this idea is the possible elimination of the numlock key, my personal pick for least favorite or useful key, now that I've gone to extended set keyboard (oh, was that the 1980's?). I think you're onto something, ¯[ sctld ], so push hard and make it stick.
—reensure, Jul 19 2002
   

       I'm fed up having to press Ctrl+Shift+@ and then having to get the timing correct to press 'a', and rememvering to move your finger off of shift, just to get å. Thats 4 key presses instead of two with the AccentPad system.
—[ sctld ], Jul 19 2002
   

       Years ago, when working in Sweden, I memorised the "Alt" - nnn numeric codes for the accented characters so I could type Swedish on a UK english keyboard, and I've never had a problem with accents since. It might be handy for occasional users though.   

       reensure: What have you got against NumLock ?
—8th of 7, Jul 19 2002
   

       I would assume reensure's objection to num lock is the same as mine, that the numerical keypad should always produce numbers, and thus numlock should be tautological or superfluous.
—pottedstu, Jul 19 2002
   

       Well, since most keyboards now have seperate blocks of keys for cursor direction, plus Home/End/PU/PD/Ins/Del, the numlock function is indeed redundant. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest to see it go, and be replaced by an ACCENT key.
—8th of 7, Jul 19 2002
   

       ¯all: Precisely. NumLock on the extended set keypad occasionally gets tripped by my fingernail (I still use my IBM extended model M, 1984 vintage for serious consoling, owing to the ‘click’ produced by keystrokes) and silently jumps my cursor to the great beyond.   

       I use my keypad for number entry, in the past and presently in my job. My extended board on the NT console at work has the NumLock key disabled, because it is superfluous and the screen is touch-sensitive (again, I use the keypad more than the contact display). When tabulating entries like
H.000382
0.000114
1.001700

and so on, the prospect of looking up after 10 seconds and finding myself in BFE instead of DBC is damned aggravating. Sure, the board can be reprogrammed, but I'm sure that argument was heard frequently when the industry switched from 84 key to 101 key keyboards (oh, was that the 1980's?).		   

       The prospect of correcting øë éé, instead of reviewing the last twenty keystrokes for correctness around and about a page, appeals to me for its simplicity.
—reensure, Jul 19 2002
   

       Where again does H.000382 fall in the number domain?
—DrCurry, Jul 20 2002
   

       H.000382 coems just after H.000381.   

       Reavenswood: I need as many pitchfork-machete weilders as possible. And maybe flaming haystack handlers.   

       I would have spelt machete using the proper accents, but the amount of keystrokes required was just too much...
—[ sctld ], Jul 20 2002
   

       I'm not entirely sure how this works, given that there are many accents that a letter can have. (e.g. if you include all the eastern European languages; Polish is mental!) you might end up with as confusing a set as your usual Alt+0177 type of things. would all the options be printed on the keys? like AccentLock+7 gives you an acute 'a', 8 gives a little circle above it, 9 with a grave, 4 with a tick through the top... etc. Consonants with accents are the worst - there are plenty that you just can't do on standard keyboards - like the Polish L with a diagonal tick through the horizontal stroke. Crazy.
—sappho, Jul 22 2002
   

       kind of like 'use bizarre metaphors', but with ticks, dots and cedillas, right?
—sappho, Jul 22 2002
   

       Must dash, I've got dieresis.
—angel, Jul 22 2002
   

       Fresh, warm pastry for you, [sctld]. Eliminating num lock has always been an aim of mine, and now we have something undeniably useful to put in its place.   

       I don't think you should have to hold down keys though, just type one key followed by another. Assuming the Accent Lock is on, to type é you'd just hit 0 followed by e. More common accents would occur on the more easily accesible keys.   

       You could also use the other keys on the AccentPad for rarer accents - / to put a stroke through o or l, - for the bar over a letter (î), * for the little circle (å), etc. That gives you 14 standard accents. Use shift for the next 14. The big + key is used to bring a box up on the screen, for searching for even rarer accents.
—sadie, Jul 23 2002
   

       I was thinking along the lines of 7 = acute
8 = grave
9 = tilde
4 = circumflex
5 = caron/breve
6 = macron/stroke
1 = angstrom
2 = superscript/middle dot
3 = umlaut
0 = cedilla/ogonek		   

       That covers every accent excepts double acute, but that is hardly used at all.
—[ sctld ], Jul 23 2002
   

       And there is no need for hift, the letter that have carons, can't have breves and vice versa, etc.
—[ sctld ], Jul 24 2002
   

       Even better would be to just replace the top-row numbers above the letters with the most commonly used accents, along with replacing the "-" and "+" since all of those are already on the keypad (keep the underscore and equals sign).
—Bert6322, Jul 24 2002
   

       // That covers every accent excepts double acute //   

       Er, are you sure? I was sure there were more than that in the world. Anyway, that looks like as good an arrangement as any. If one or two do need adding, then you do have five keys around that could be used - and i think using the stroke for a macron would be neat.
—sadie, Jul 26 2002
   

       What about the flat (non-wiggly) horizontal stroke that's used in latin, romaji-japanese, etc?   

       (you can probably tell i don't use these all the time).
—sadie, Jul 26 2002
   

       //flat (non-wiggly) horizontal stroke that's used in latin, romaji-japanese, etc//   

       Thats called a 'macron' and is basically the same as a stroke, only for non stroke letters.
—[ sctld ], Jul 27 2002
   

       I thought a macron was like a forward-slash (which i habitually call stroke)? As in scandinavian Ø? What's that one called then?
—sadie, Jul 29 2002
   

       Thats an 'O' with a stroke. You just got macron and stroke mixed up.
—[ sctld ], Jul 29 2002
   

       But you want them on the same key?
—sadie, Jul 30 2002
   

       Good point. Could use the slash already on the numpad as a stroke, and the minus sign as a macron. Then, something like invert could be put on 6, in order to get punctuation for espanol.
—[ sctld ], Jul 30 2002
   

       Why do you need more than two fingers to type [alt] + 0123, for example?   

       I think this'd just be more clutter and more keystrokes and typing comventions to memorise.
—NickTheGreat, Jul 30 2002
   

       // something like invert could be put on 6, in order to get punctuation for espanol //   

       Invert! I like it. Although, it is a rather special function to have a number. Is the * being used for anything yet?
—sadie, Jul 30 2002
   

       // Why do you need more than two fingers to type [alt] + 0123, for example? I think this'd just be more clutter and more keystrokes and typing comventions to memorise.//   

       Er, what? What we're proposing involves less keystrokes (two keys for a special character rather than four), less clutter (get rid of num lock), and less to remember.   

       You just need to know the two or three accents for your own language, and one you've found out that 7 means acute, you need never remember 2163, 2197, 2298, 2282 and 2209 for the different accented characters (or whatever the numbers are).
—sadie, Jul 30 2002
   

       No, * is free. Its only the numbers and / thats been used. Maybe, middle dot/superscript dot can be moved to del, 'cause theres already a pointmark there, and stroke can be moved onto 3, umlaut to two. 0 can be split into two, and invert can be put on the new key there.
—[ sctld ], Jul 30 2002
   

       Hold on, [sctld]. Let's take this carefully.   

       // middle dot onto .DEL //
yes, this sounds right.		   

       // stroke onto 3 //
i thought we agreed that / should be used for Ø ? or do you mean something else by stroke. Where possible, we should take advantage of symbols that resemble their accent.		   

       // umlaut onto 2 //
is there nothing closer to the 8 position? failing that, yes 2 is a reasonable place for it.		   

       // 0 can be split into two //
NO. we cannot affect the layout of the keys themselves, or this will become unusable on existing keyboards. We also can't annoy those people who want to use the numpad as a numpad. At present, this can all be done in software, with a little labelling.		   

       // ...and invert can be put on the new key there //
again, NO. no new keys, nothing but software and labelling changes. I think * is a good place for invert, or possibly 3.		   

       So to summarize:   

       First row:
"Accent Lock" key
/ = stroke Ø
* = ?
- = macron ¯
   

       Second row:
7 = acute á
8 = grave è
9 = tilde ñ
+ is used to show more options
   

       Third row:
4 = circumflex Ê
5 = caron / breve ě
6 = ?
   

       Fourth Row:
1 = angstrom å
2 = umlaut ë
3 = invert ¿
   

       Fifth Row:
0 = cedilla / ogonek ç
.DEL = middle dot
enter is unaffected
—sadie, Jul 30 2002
   

       Fantastic idea. Anything that will stopme having to find character map, find teh character I want, write down the code, close character map and then type the code will make my sooo simple. Thank you half baked!
—lolo, Jul 30 2002
   

       This is all well and good, but take a look at your NumPad for a second - will there be room to fit these on so that they will be a reasonable size? I suppose they could go in the top-right corner of each key, but it would have to be smaller on some, for example the * key.
—NickTheGreat, Jul 30 2002
   

       Sadie, have put stroke on 3 because i don't think we should mess with the other keys. if we must, then a more key and inverse key on / and * would be the best way to go. See link.
—[ sctld ], Jul 30 2002
   

       Yup, that image is a pretty good description. We've gone into (more than) enough detail of the keys for now - if anybody ever tries to do it, they can fill in the gaps.
—sadie, Jul 31 2002
   

       Agreed.
—[ sctld ], Jul 31 2002
   

       Oh good, I was almost feeling like I'd have to be a pioneer and make a nice picture of a NumPad complete with accents. Phew.
—NickTheGreat, Jul 31 2002
   


 

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