Maybe it would be cool if we could help the monkeys along a little bit by giving them specific drugs. We could experiment with a group of them who are isolated from the other monkeys in the world. If the group got really smart and wanted out of their previous boundaries to spread the good word well, we would have to try to reason with them. If that didn't work we might have to kill them to avoid anything like 'planet of the apes'.-- daseva, Sep 09 2010 Some Entheogens to choose from... http://www.erowid.o...pihkal/pihkal.shtml [Wily Peyote, Sep 09 2010] ...And some more http://www.erowid.o...tihkal/tihkal.shtml [Wily Peyote, Sep 09 2010] The "Drunken Monkey" Hypothesis http://findarticles...10_113/ai_n8640726/Monkeys getting stoned out in the wild, for free, without any help from us. [zen_tom, Sep 10 2010] I would see monkeys as having mental abilities appropriate to their ecological niche rather than as less intelligent than humans. I don't think that in general the comparison between different species' intelligence is hierarchical. There are wasps which are really good at remembering where their holes are compared to humans, for example. I don't think it's a ladder and what you say reminds me rather of "if humans evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys?"-- nineteenthly, Sep 09 2010 I think this idea is related to the hypothesis that human intelligence (and human brain size/structure) rapidly evolved (over a relatively short 100,000 years) due to our ancestors consuming entheogens. So yes, if you got a group of monkeys and gave them entheogens over a period of 100,000 years it would be interesting to see what traits would evolve. However, on time scales that normal experiments run (optimistically 30 years), I think all you'll get is a bunch of stoned monkeys.-- xaviergisz, Sep 09 2010 If you did that over millenia, i think all that would happen is that you'd get monkeys better at metabolising and excreting the active principles.-- nineteenthly, Sep 09 2010 // i think all that would happen is that you'd get monkeys better at metabolising and excreting the active principles//
How does that make a monkey more fit to survive? (And consequently more fit to pass on its genes.)-- Wily Peyote, Sep 09 2010 It would make a monkey which was being forcefed drugs more fit to survive, because firstly it would be completely addled and unable to interact sensibly with its environment, and secondly it would probably have brain damage or go psychotic quite soon unless it was able to clear out the crud from its bloodstream. Psychotic or tripping monkeys probably aren't very good at childcare.-- nineteenthly, Sep 09 2010 [daseva] have you been messing with Beany?-- MaxwellBuchanan, Sep 09 2010 I agree with you [nineteenthly], if they were force fed entheogens, but I got the impression from [daseva]'s original hypothesis that they were allowed to choose whether to take it: "... If the group got really smart and wanted out of their previous boundaries to spread the good word well, we would have to try to reason with them".
Sorry, [daseva], your experiment isn't completely clear to me. Are these monkeys force fed entheogens, or simply allowed to choose?-- Wily Peyote, Sep 09 2010 Given the choice, if they perceived a reward from eating them they would presumably do so, but would it be rewarding to them? What about bad trips?-- nineteenthly, Sep 09 2010 I would want them to have the option, [Wily Peyote] but yes we would make little tasty concoctions for them to chose from. The hope is that the fallout behavior from being able to conceptualize the existence of a god would give the participating monkeys further abilities for food retrieval and natural defense. Maybe they would finally want to create art and this might be a further catalyst for cultural evolution.-- daseva, Sep 09 2010 I hate to waste everybodys time ... but there is room for an idea here(!) Maybe [daseva] can clarify when he comes down...
I'd like to trip with the great apes, dolphins, whales - (not you, Sigmund!) - macaws, etc. Probably nothing too special about the monkeys...
Hey, I'd probably like tripping with you Homo Sapiens! (Notice my handle...)
Maybe a Half-Bakery "lets get half-baked" event. I'll bring...
Sorry, [jutta], just trippin'-- Wily Peyote, Sep 10 2010 Half-baked "magic brownies"?-- DrWorm, Sep 10 2010 //wanted out of their previous boundaries to spread the good word well, we would have to try to reason with them. If that didn't work we might have to kill them//
Would you not be currious to see if it caught on with another group which had no access to enteogens?-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Sep 10 2010 //we would make little tasty concoctions for them to chose from.// they already have plenty of tasty concoctions to choose from - ripening alcoholic fruits, psychadelic mushrooms, cacti, worms, beetles, toads, flowers and all manner of other entheogens freely available in the wild. To paraphrase [nineteenthly], if the only difference between monkeys and humans was drug consumption, then there wouldn't be any monkeys. They're perfectly capable of getting stoned by themselves without any assistance from us.
The rapid 100,000 year evolution thing is interesting though (if it is indeed true) - but is more likely to be due to the far more "mundane" process of sexual selection for intelligence. Smarter = sexier = smarter children = sexier children = even smarter grandchildren etc etc etc - like a Peacock's feathers, only brain-shaped, and providing the ability to do technology really well - to the point that doing technology = sexy = kids who can programme the video recorder.-- zen_tom, Sep 10 2010 What would happen if the monkeys wanted to set up their own nations that haphazardly crossed our own national boundaries?-- RayfordSteele, Sep 10 2010 Then we'd be in an Olaf Stapledon, er, "novel".-- nineteenthly, Sep 10 2010 [MB], I guess this is beany like, hasn't been perfectly well thought out, though I stand that I haven't tried to incorporate any completely far out remote esoteric genetically modified possibility in the hopes of changing or destroying the world. Of course, rereading the post, I may need to rescind the statement.
[zen_tom], Though there is availability in their current environment for these drugs, they are far too distracted from their sustained survival habits to see benefit from their isolated and happenstance trips. If we had a little drug stand with nice fruits and stuff and everything was free for the taking, maybe they'd really get carried away with it and start consensualizing their existence in new ways like contemplating a god together. Maybe they'd develop a drug trade in the monkey culture and that might be interesting, too.
I'm also not past the idea that we may find monkeys doing this in the wild somewhere one day. That would be the best case scenario in my opinion.
the idea of a god is almost ubiquitous across human cultures, from tribal to modern. I think it's the binary nature of comprehending god (before, no understanding of god or the universe. after, the ability to at least comprehend that god and the universe may be super real), and the amount of changes that take place due to that newfound comprehension, that lead to the evolutionary jump that is referred to by [xaviergisz].
Finally, my guess is that drugs that aided in the (at least subjectively apparent) comprehension of god were probably used to catalyze the whole process.-- daseva, Sep 10 2010 I wouldn't say the idea of God was ubiquitous. There are spiritual traditions where deities are acknowledged but considered irrelevant to spiritual growth at least, if not actual agnostic cultures, and there are certainly ones where there is no high god. If the Piraha are not a hoax, and I think they are, there is a culture without religion too.-- nineteenthly, Sep 10 2010 random, halfbakery