Imagine one of those old ball-bearing water-wheel-type perpetual motion machine attempts from antiquity which try to re-route the course of the bearings to create an off-set unballanced wheel which turns continuously.
Yeah, I know. Can't be done, but....
If it were a reverse water-wheel which uses an excess of bearings to force individual bearings 'up' what would normally be the down side of the wheel then it would do... exactly nothing once it used up the force of the initial spin you'd give it, but...
What if the the bearings were instead disks made of a ferrous material, and what if the return trip of the falling disks were slowed by Eddy currents on their descent by falling through a tube made from permanent magnets so that there is always an imballance as long as the eddy currents last?
It wouldn't be perpetual motion, but would the contraption remain turning for the length of time it takes for the magnetic tube to lose its strength if the lag time of the falling disks ensured that there is always one extra disk on the uptake side?-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 09 2013 (Speaker) magnets and custard http://www.youtube....watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU [ytk, Apr 09 2013] Eddys' current descent. http://www.bing.com...first=0&FORM=NVPFVR [2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 09 2013] https://www.youtube...watch?v=gifFUkcVLoM why not just use a few magnets, and create real free energy? [xenzag, Apr 10 2013] No. This idea falls under the category of perpetual motion machines that supposedly extract work from a static force such as magnetism or gravity. Needless to say, they don't work.-- ytk, Apr 09 2013 I'm not entirely sure where this is going, or indeed where it's been. Is the idea to make a machine that looks paradoxical but which complies with the current thermodynamic regulations?
More importantly - is there custard? Magnets are good, but magnets and custard is better.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Apr 09 2013 Who's Eddy current,is he a classical music conductor?-- skinflaps, Apr 09 2013 Eddie...Eddy... He doesn't care what the focault I call him.
Custard hmmmm.... wait, quit distracting me.
This contraption wouldn't do any work. It's not perpetual motion because it would only turn until the magnetic feild strength failed and it took energy to make them in the first place.
//Is the idea to make a machine that looks paradoxical but which complies with the current thermodynamic regulations?//
Yep. I just wonder if it would 'appear' to be a perpetual motion machine for a fairly long time.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 09 2013 //I just wonder if it would 'appear' to be a perpetual motion machine for a fairly long time.// Buggered if I know. However, if it's any help, eddy currents must fizzle out through resistance within a chicosecond of the removal of whatever instigated them.
Of course, you could use a superconductor. But then everything would have to be kept very very cold, and the custard would freeze. Why you must insist on incorporating custard is completely beyond me. Custard and magnets is invariably a failure-prone combination.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Apr 09 2013 A machine that operates by extracting energy from a static magnetic field is still considered a perpetual motion machine. By your reasoning, no motion is truly “perpetual”.
The fallacy is that the application of magnetic force doesn't reduce the power of the magnet significantly. So any power you think you're getting from a static magnetic field is really coming from somewhere else. If it were really possible to do so, you would be able to extract far more energy from the magnet than was ever put into creating it, thus leading to an over unity system and invalidating the laws of thermodynamics.-- ytk, Apr 09 2013 // Custard and magnets is invariably a failure-prone combination.//
Too true. The combination of thixotropic and magnets though is going to be huge but I covered that before.
//By your reasoning, no motion is truly “perpetual”. The fallacy is that the application of magnetic force doesn't reduce the power of the magnet significantly. So any power you think you're getting from a static magnetic field is really coming from somewhere else.//
Exactly. No motion 'is' perpetual. That's not _my_ definition, but I suppose I could take credit for it if nobody else has claimed it yet. (I'd like to thank my mum and dad for having me, and all the little people...)
I would estimate that any energy extracted from the magnets to induce the eddie/y currents will be quite a bit less than the energy it took to create the magnetic fields in the first place.It is not an attempt at perpetual motion... just a long lasting magnetic field/gravity powered clock. The eddie/y currents just act as the spring. Somebody still had to wind it.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 09 2013 //Exactly. No motion 'is' perpetual. That's not _my_ definition, but I suppose I could take credit for it if nobody else has claimed it yet.//
This is precisely the sort of argument claimed by producers of over-unity devices to “legitimize” their claims by separating them from your run-of-the-mill perpetual motion fraudsters. It's nothing more than sophistry. Claiming that /your/ machine shouldn't be grouped with those /other/ devices because it extracts work from magnets or gravity or some other technically finite but effectively infinite source is typical.
You simply cannot extract continuous energy from a static magnetic field, period. It won't work for the same reasons that other such devices that rely on gravity won't work. Any repelling force provided by the magnet must have been paid beforehand in the form of an attracting force, and vice versa. In no case can you get more energy from a magnetic field than the actual energy it takes to move an object into that field.
Truth be told, I'm having a hard time conceiving of how you would build such a device, but as best I can tell you're talking about having a wheel with chambers designed so that as the bearings fall down they somehow pass through a magnetic tube mounted in each chamber? So each of the magnetic tubes is mounted to, and rotated with the wheel? In that case, there's another reason it won't work: Newton's third law of motion. As the bearings are slowed as they pass through the magnetic tube, an opposite force is applied to the tube, and thus the wheel, creating a net force differential of zero on the wheel as compared to the disks simply falling without the tube.-- ytk, Apr 10 2013 Frozen custard is delicious, especially chocolate.
Not sure how it works with magnets, though.-- whlanteigne, Apr 10 2013 //Claiming that /your/ machine shouldn't be grouped with those /other/ devices because it extracts work from magnets or gravity or some other technically finite but effectively infinite source is typical//
Ugh.It's just a fake over-unity desk-top gizmo. I make no claims that it is meant to be an actual perpetual motion machine. It shouldn't be grouped with those /other/ devices because it isn't an over unity device... it says so right in the title.
It extracts no energy from the magnets in order to turn. It just uses the eddie/y current effect to delay the speed of descent.Again... no perpetualness. I'll do a sketch tomorrow if there's time and anyone cares to see it.
...
Frozen custard is good.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 10 2013 But if it doesn't extract energy from the magnets to keep turning, then it will spin for exactly the same length of time as a normal wheel. You're not doing anything to reduce friction here, so what keeps the wheel turning?-- ytk, Apr 10 2013 <hangs head in shame>marked-for-doh!
It wasn't until I started to sketch this that it dawned on me that the energy lost by lifting the weights in a curve when they are falling straight down would still equal the amount of force to elevate them in the first place.It does give me another notion though that I've just got to build to see why it won't work.muhahaha-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 11 2013 //custard// sp. oobleck.
//thixotropic// sp. dilatant.-- spidermother, Apr 11 2013 Isn't thixotropic the opposite of dilatant?-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 11 2013 No, thixotropic is the opposite of rheopectic. Pseudoplastic is the opposite of dilatant.-- spidermother, Apr 11 2013 I thought the opposite of dilitant was virtuoso...
If one were a thick-headed amateur that only grew more stiff-necked under pressure, would they be a dilettante dilatant?-- RayfordSteele, Apr 11 2013 //rheopectic. Pseudoplastic//
y-y-Yesss!<cryptogasm>
...sorry, I'll just clean that up.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Apr 11 2013 //It does give me another notion though... //Seems to be a Perpetual Notion Machine.-- sqeaketh the wheel, Apr 11 2013 // Perpetual Notion Machine //
[marked-for-tagline]-- Alterother, Apr 11 2013 random, halfbakery