Building on the ground breaking research* which proves that the number of humans went up as the number of dodos declined, it must be something to do with the number of souls available, and (a minor point) there is a problem with the fungibility of souls.
Regrettably and obviously it's a bit too late to start a crash breeding program of dodos to empirically assess the ratio.
So, I'm thinking breed more monkeys, as our nearest relatives, as being likely to have souls.
If, as I suspect, with a greatly increased monkey population mopping up the souls, then the level of human children being born should go down.
Whether this would affect Buddhist countries more is open to speculation.
* I looked it up on wikipedia.-- not_morrison_rm, Oct 06 2015 Dodos: extinction, conversion and existence of dodo souls http://biblioklept....s-gravitys-rainbow/already touched upon in, yes I'm still going on about it, Gravity's Rainbow [calum, Oct 06 2015] Soul clearing house soul_20clearing_20houseshameless plug [Voice, Oct 07 2015] Yes but there was a good reason that all the budgies were used up in coal mining - they were used to warn of poisonous gases.-- hippo, Oct 06 2015 This idea is so much less bad than it could have been.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 06 2015 I would suggest breeding spiders. They have more heels and soles, and might start cutting down on the population if the right variety were found.-- RayfordSteele, Oct 06 2015 // This idea is so much less bad than it could have been.
Indeed, I was scared to read it.-- tatterdemalion, Oct 06 2015 What is this Guph?-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 06 2015 I think the word you're looking for is "guff". ("Guff" is a term from the paper-making industry, and refers to the small wood fibres which are washed out to leave behind the longer fibres for paper-making. It's also the name for a flimsy, low-quality paper made from this waste material. More generally, it's a term for nonsense, or worthless speech or writing.)-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 06 2015 Setting aside the question of whether or not souls are in limited supply, and the related question of fungibility with respect to the differences between human and monkey souls, this idea produces no benefit.
If we're aiming to reduce the amount of resources required to sustain the combined population (there would be no point letting them die and release the soul for re-homing) then the substitute species ought to be something that consumes very little and requires little space. A tortoise consumes little, takes up very little room and hangs on to an allocated soul for many decades.
Can anyone suggest how we might test fungibility between human and tortoise souls?-- Tulaine, Oct 06 2015 // I think the word you're looking for is "guff". //
Nope.In Jewish mysticism the Chamber of Guf (also Guph or even Gup) Hebrew for "body", also called the Otzar (Hebrew for "treasury"), is the Treasury of Souls, located in the Seventh Heaven According to the Talmud, the Messiah will not come until the Guf is emptied of all its souls.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 06 2015 //This idea is so much less bad than it could have been//-- FlyingToaster, Oct 07 2015 //Chamber of Guf//
Ah, right. As you were, then.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 07 2015 so, stop the badger cull NOW-- po, Oct 07 2015 Why do you think they call them "monkey bars" at the playscape? BECAUSE THEY ARE AWAITING THE MONKEY SOULS! Yes.-- blissmiss, Oct 07 2015 // the substitute species ought to be something that consumes very little and requires little space //
Mexicans ?
Why not dogs ? Dogs have souls. More puppies = doubleplusgood.-- 8th of 7, Oct 07 2015 Considering that the human population has continued to go up despite lack of available dodo souls, it means the new humans are consuming souls which might otherwise have inhabited Stellers sea cows, passenger pigeons and the like.
Thinking about the fits-and-starts gradual ascent of souls thru mutliple reincarnations to nirvana I think one would see that the total soul allocation would tend to become top heavy over time. I would think that the lowest creatures would be first to go: oysters, worms and the like.
The last humans would be in an empty world but might be so enlightened that this would be ok. If plants dont have souls they would be company. This short story just writes itself.-- bungston, Oct 07 2015 Hang on just a second here.
I'm a bit vague on the whole souls business, but I'm pretty sure that they're supposed to leave the body at or about the time of death (or the award of an MBA, whichever is sooner).
So, as population levels out, there ought to be enough used souls to go around. Once we start downsizing towards a more reasonable population, there should be a surplus of souls.
This surplus could, perhaps, be stored as a reserve against future population expansions. For instance, if we colonise Mars and start reproducing there, souls will have to be supplied from Earth.
However, I suspect that, once souls come into surplus, the wealthy will start buying them up. This would enable them to have one or two souls in reserve.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 07 2015 Enlightened souls are not used again but become one with the Godhead. They just pack right in there; sing probably. Probably through the efforts of the UN there will be lots more enlightenment and so more Godhead joining. But there are plenty of souls in nonhumans that the humans can use; the species will be ok.
The colonist question is interesting: at what distance from Earth can souls still be found to occupy newborn babies? On a distant alien world might there be no unused souls handy? What could the colonists use instead?-- bungston, Oct 07 2015 I've managed for many years by filling the void with strong liquor. It seems to work quite well.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 07 2015 // the wealthy will start buying them up //
No change there, then.
What is the going rate for a soul ? It probably depends in how tarnished it is.
Is this an opportunity to establish a new commodity futures market ?-- 8th of 7, Oct 07 2015 HB is so last year... I keep looking for the like button and keep counting the letters... :-)-- po, Oct 07 2015 Last year is the new now.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 07 2015 Good thing I kept my pants!-- bungston, Oct 07 2015 Let's get this into robotics. I'm certain that an ensouled cell phone would be emotionally, ethically and empathically superior to the soulless automacomms that we carry about nowdays. Then, we can expand into ensoulment for automobiles, aircraft, microwaves, toasters, electricity meters, juke boxes, legislators, hair dryers, alarm clocks, urinal flushers, and flash drives. Eventually we'll get into a shortage, and then... uhh...
I've heard some really weird Siri conversations. I'm trying to imagine somebody trying to talk their cell phone into reincarnation so they can have a not-soulless baby.-- lurch, Oct 07 2015 // Let's get this into robotics //
Isaac Asimov would be so proud ...-- 8th of 7, Oct 08 2015 Fine, fine, not a problem. Since by inference you don't exist either, is it OK if we rent out your nonexistent house to some theoretical tenants, and keep the hypothetical money ?-- 8th of 7, Oct 08 2015 I was going to prove you wrong, but I don't have any evidence.-- lurch, Oct 08 2015 He's definitely wrong, [lurch].-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 08 2015 [Ian], if I were to take a run-up and deliver you a kick in the bollocks, would that go some way to convincing you that the ideas of "you", "me" and "bollocks" were concepts worth noting? I should emphasize that I would only do this in the interests of experimentation.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 08 2015 I'm not so sure, [bigs]. In a nullipsist philosophy, who would you kill?-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 08 2015 I think it's the uncertain users you need to worry about.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 08 2015 Well, yes. Next?-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 08 2015 OK, [Ian], I think I get you. We don't exist now, because we didn't exist pre-birth (absence of evidence being evidence of absence, after all) and we don't exist after death, which again BBQED, and therefore we didn't, don't, and won't.
However, that doesn't work for all of us. I, for example, have a halfbakery account, and therefore have evolved in simultaneity with the universe.
If you're not here, it seems the least you could do is stop arguing about it.-- lurch, Oct 08 2015 You mean, like two guys fall off a boat; as they're splashing around, one says "Oh, no! Sharks!" and the other says "Don't worry, there's no water, so there can't be sharks." I get that.
Actually, no, I don't....-- lurch, Oct 08 2015 Just because we can't remember a time before we were born doesn't mean that we were nothing Ian. Who knows what dimensions we inhabit before coalescing in the fourth?-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 09 2015 //When there is nothing left to perceive reality, it cannot be known to exist.//
This assumes that time is linear. If it turns out that time itself is static or crystalline and consciousness briefly inhabits 'slides' as it passes through them, then souls would be necessary to explain individual consciousness. What the exact definition of soul would be is up to interpretation, fragments of a whole, facets of a crystal... who knows?... but something for certain. Not a no-thing.
...there I go dividing by zero again-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 09 2015 Because the universe is infinite, the questions are ... is it full of souls? and can those souls swapped locally? The probability shows that there are a fair few souls we haven't met yet.-- wjt, Oct 09 2015 I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into your idea, but I'm personally described as soulless.-- AusCan531, Oct 09 2015 That much is obvious.
// When there is nothing left to perceive reality, it cannot be known to exist. //
That's just the Copenhagen Interpretation - reality is created by observation ; there is no deep reality.-- 8th of 7, Oct 09 2015 The soul question is if there is a heaven. Currently above the clouds we only found the stratosphere.
But any reason which will cause people to adopt helping species close to extinction to multiply and thrive in a natural habitat is a good one.-- pashute, Oct 09 2015 // any reason which will cause people to adopt helping species close to extinction to multiply and thrive in a natural habitat is a good one //
Even the reason that they just taste so damned good when cooked ?-- 8th of 7, Oct 09 2015 //Ultimately, pain doesn’t actually matter.//
... as long as it's happening to someone else.-- 8th of 7, Oct 09 2015 //The "self" is not a certainty though. In some circumstances, another "self" exerts so much control on a developing "self" that the developing "self" becomes stunted and the "identity" developed is as an extension of another being. In some cases this manifests as something like co-dependence where the "self" needs another "self" to serve, and in others as something like narcissism where a false-self is constructed and needs constant validation. In other cases there is something like the Schizoid where the self is neither strong nor needy and in other cases the "self" is shaken as a result of great loss, and is followed by an abandonment of the attachment mechanism in order to avoid the pain of grief.//
That's friggin deep, and totally true as far as I've been able to determine.So... what does it mean when your imaginary childhood friend winds up being way smarter than you and teaches you stuff?.. I'm just asking, y'know, for a friend.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 10 2015 hmm, don't know about souls. Some energy animates us, and since energy can not be created or destroyed only converted, then our animate energy becomes something else after we die, and was something else before we were born.
//in cases where the intelligence is unable to rationalize itself clear, actually resulting in schizophrenia.//
Interesting. I have a different theory but it's mighty close to that.When my younger brother had his psychotic break he was home for close to a week in that condition before being hospitalized and I got a real close-up view of the workings of an un-medicated newly schizophrenic mind.I knew him extremely well before this happening and have become (almost) convinced that the consciousness who emerged from that episode was his subconscious mind. He couldn't comprehend why he couldn't seem to control reality, it was almost as though he'd recently thought of himself as God and could in fact write his reality just a short time ago, (as it recently would have been able to do in the dreamscape).His memories seemed intact, and yet could also be re-written on-the-fly if they became un-desirable.I imagine that the consciousness I knew as my brothers' (self) is now chained and running his back-house while his subconscious has been running around out here in his skin ever since that day.They've inverted.
In the case of bi-polar disorder, I observed a very similar God-persona emergence when my step-son went through a psychotic break, and although his conscious mind now has a less tenuous grip on reality, his subconscious mind took over his skin for a while too.
It is my opinion that lack of recognition of this entire (other) self we all possess is a leading cause of mental illness in society.Our children are fed to it so that society as a whole can pretend it does not exist so as to not have to face it themselves.In the case of my friend, that recognition came at a very early age indeed, and the acknowledgement of this other self allowed for an emergence without an inversion.It is my opinion that this other self is capable of things our conscious minds can not yet comprehend as it's computational ability can be likened to an ocean on which our consciousness minds are merely hand-made rafts of twigs.
There is a good reason why genius, (the old-school term not what the kids are calling it nowadays), is so closely tied to madness... it's a really Really big ocean out there.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 10 2015 It's hard to say.If I understand the article correctly, a previous sense of self-worth, whether inflated or lacking, plays a huge roll in psychosis.In the cases of god-persona mental breaks I've seen, the individuals had a previous inflated sense of ego, (unable to ignore their own reflection, need for constant spotlight etc.) and a moral code they were in the process of abandoning.I think that when the conscious and subconscious minds begin to differ too strongly, a schism appears, the pendulum swings, and lack of knowledge of the consequences causes an inner overcompensation which overturns the little raft of twigs and the two distinct minds invert. Not surprisingly, the previous strong moral code seems to reassert itself once the new consciousness settles in.
With the socio/psychopaths I've had the... privilege to meet and still talk about, the overriding subconscious drives are centered entirely around schadenfruede for them, or taking pleasure from the misfortune of others.The pleasure centers of their brains are only activated when someone's suffering elevates their sense of self worth. It's the only thing which puts that little glint in the corner of their eyes.
When my own, er, I mean my friends... mind tried.Yeah, alright, like you didn't know there was no friend?When my own subconscious tried to overwhelm me there was certainly a schism between the inner self I knew I was and the outer self I was being conditioned to think of myself as. That pendulum you're talking about 'can' be stopped once it's started swinging, but... your ride then goes from an automatic transmission to a manual transmission and you have access to both minds simultaneously without ever having lost touch with reality in the first place.
I don't know what label is given to that condition but I don't think bi-polar fits. Not sure it even has a label yet.
It feels whole... like I'm the only one I know with scuba gear while everyone else I've met clings to their little ocean-going twig-rafts.
...
...and that may be the most conceited thing I've ever uttered...-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 11 2015 If you look down, [2 fries], you may see some of us trudging along the bottom in lead boots and big brass helmets. That one waving is me.-- pertinax, Oct 11 2015 For a while, Sturton was convinced that he was a water buffalo that didn't exist. He's been wary of exotic herbs ever since.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 12 2015 [Ian], you misunderstand agency. It's "want", not "get".-- lurch, Oct 12 2015 A million monkeys pounding on a keyboard cannot write prose. The internet proves otherwise. (Not Mine)-- pashute, Oct 13 2015 Haven't seen bottom yet [pertinax] home-made scuba doesn't go that deep... nice to virtually meet you. <waves in general downward direction>
//But supposing the subconscious mind is disconnected from the conscious mind ? You might get situations where the subconscious mind actually understands parts of the world by reading a little harder into information, but the conscious self completely disagrees with it.//
Yes. Alright here's a question for you, does the subconscious mind perceive reality through our senses in the same way that the conscious mind does?If the subconscious and conscious minds were to disconnect and... overlap, (I want a better word, can't think of one), how would this cause reality to look to the conscious mind?Would neurological perception physically change to reflect this overlap?
I ask because, if it does, and if my perception of reality is a reflection of this disconnection/overlap, then... this way I see things seems to be kinda spontaneously happening to more and more people across the planet in the middle of their lives and they don't have the pathways to deal with the sensory overload.As we speak there are a whole lot of parents freaking out about their three to five year olds grabbing at things that don't seem to be there, and six to twelve year olds trying to describe the 'sparkles' only they can see to their parents. These kids won't suffer from their perception, far from it, but they are currently being tagged as neurologically diseased and brain-dysfunctional due to overreaction of a medical community about to be bombarded by individuals at all levels of society suddenly seeing like they are on LSD for the rest of their lives.
it really is the dangdest thing...-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 15 2015 That's amazing [LimpNotes] that you can remember so far back. My memories only stretch back to three years old.
////Alright here's a question for you, does the subconscious mind perceive reality through our senses in the same way that the conscious mind does.////
//I would say it does.//
I would have to question that.
Imagine...
The subconscious mind perceives reality as it actually 'is' through our senses and then filters out extraneous information so our conscious minds can deal with the here and now without paralysing minuitae.For a person to spontaneously perceive reality as it really is without that filter for even one sense only, say vision, would completely overwhelm them.You would be suddenly aware of the blinds-spots and vein-pulse in your eyes. The vitreous humor itself would become visible along with any bits of detached retina. The individual firings of the cones and rods, and sometimes even the true inversion of images before being flipped by the brain would assert themselves, as well as all of the entoptic phenomena, and whatever lingering after-images it focusses on etc...
and that's just one sensory input...
add in conscious awareness of all subconscious auditory and tactile sensation, while every nerve ending in your body is supplying its feedback continuously, 'And' it would also be aware of everything the conscious mind is thinking and perceiving as well.
No. I'm pretty certain that the subconscious mind does not perceive reality as the conscious mind does.
Yep, pretty sure.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 16 2015 And I've got a very nice G&T.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 16 2015 //There isn’t a conscious mind. There’s the mind (no need to call it subconscious).////It’s not an entire mind, or a subset of the mind. It is simply the loudest rudest most dominating network, and usually a part of the network aided by the efficiency short-cuts of using the components of the network we use for language to abstract across the tops of other more detailed networks of attention (that aren’t winning the consciousness competition).//
There is a need to define the two though. Even though one is a small sub-set of the other, that sub-set of an entire mind thinks it is the whole enchilada for a majority of the population and it just ain't so.
//I wouldn't disagree with that in the slightest, but it doesn't address the "self" concept or mechanisms of self.//
'That' is the point I was trying to get to. It's all well and good to learn and discuss these topics late in life.They need to be heard by the age group they will have the most effect on, and that's not a university level age group.If every one of us is required to build our little twig-rafts... then the very least that should be done in grade school is to teach the kids how to tie decent knots.
Right?-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 17 2015 women have chocolate.-- dentworth, Oct 18 2015 ^ : )-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 18 2015 I think abstinence works better in this case.-- travbm, Oct 29 2015 random, halfbakery