Who wants to die? Well strangely enough more people than you might think. The uptake of mercy killing in Switzerland is fairly high because of the death tourism from places like uk. Killing per se is not so wrong any more if it is done mercifully. Having said that the serial killer Harold Shipman did it mercifully it would seem.. but that was not acceptable. choice comes in. You must agree and desire to die, plus die pleasantly. Then it’s ok. (Neither would apply to the Jewish holocaust, or any death penalty programme.)
Actually neither also applies to average joe’s natural death either in quite a few cases. “I’m not ready to go” and “yow that kills me” probably being common refrains. In hospital on a couple of occasions I’ve seen people die very bravely in face of ghastly symptoms, one guy even joking something like “shit my ex-wife would laugh like a drain if she could see me now” as blood exploded from his nether regions .That kind of thing - staring down death, and laughing in its face is probably mankind at its best and you can only admire these people’s sheer balls. But you have to suppose they’re in a minority.
I’ve worked with quite a few “locked in” patients who are apparently conscious but totally paralysed and I worry if I was one of those I would go quietly insane, on the assumption it is tantamount to being buried alive. I reassure myself that it is unlikely to happen to me or most other people, but if a mercy-killing assassination group existed I would consider putting a hit out on myself in a kind of “living will”, so that if one week I don’t send a text to say I’m in fine fettle, they will come and do the necessary to me with a kindly massive injection of morphine.
This merciful assassination hit squad could also be on hand to intervene in cases like the recent thing with nerve gas in my old home town of Salisbury, Wilts. A kind of compromise position where the victim, faced with the choice between horrible death by nerve agent and death by eg. laughing gas, heroin overdose, nitrogen anoxia (see earlier hb ideas about killing people nicely, under death penalty) he reluctantly accepts the better option plus hopefully no collateral victims etc. Not quite sure how the cooperation side would work, but if he accepted he was already done for, and took the hit to save his family / innocent bystanders. Then maybe less militaristic escalation between us and Russia, because the main issue of indiscriminate nerve agent use has been bypassed.
PPS to any authorities out there, I look after people in hospital but I have never seriously considered bumping any off, for I have feet of clay. I post things on the half bakery. You should keep an tighter eye on those who post dodgy killing ideas on the full-bakery.-- DDRopDeadly, Mar 17 2018 Clyde Davies provides a formula https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/in a Twitter exchange with Craig Murray. [Skewed, Mar 17 2018] Amsterdam https://en.m.wikipe...i/Amsterdam_(novel)... meanwhile, back on topic, ish ... [pertinax, Mar 21 2018] // Not quite sure how the cooperation side would work, but if he accepted he was already done for, and took the hit to save his family / innocent bystanders. //
It worked for the Samurai, where one man would accept the "guilt" of a whole clan by publicly and ritually taking his own life as a form of apology.
There are many other precedents, including - in a way - Socrates.
As an aside, we are highly amused at the way politicians and press have once again leapt to judgement, in the absence of any hard evidence. Oh, the agent was developed by the USSR, yes, but the formula and method of manufacture are well known.
"He's been shot with a 9mm Parabellum ... that's a German cartridge ! Arrest all the Germans !"
Fake News works both ways, it seems.-- 8th of 7, Mar 17 2018 //but the formula and method of manufacture are well known//
I had suspected as much & as a result (of these suspicions) was involved in some not inconsiderable online research of same a couple days back.
Was hoping to get my ducks in order before posting something scathing about it all somewhere.
It was developed in the 1970's ffs !! and yet they still expect us to believe that after all this time the formula is still only known to a handful of guys the Russians have under lock & key somewhere !! pull the other one, it does something amusing & then falls off.
Couldn't find anything definitive though.. at least not formula wise.
I shall expect MI5's knock at the door to ask about my search history momentarily :)-- Skewed, Mar 17 2018 Well yes, terminology comes into this a lot. We should’t accuse ‘Russia’, because we got no bone with a Russian on the street. The enemy should be defined much more precisely, just: Putin and his mob. (You have to admit he seems to like bumping people off) Putting up the backs of the Russian citizens just drives them into their own patriotic frenzy and closer to Putin. Really all these things should be dealt with not by the British govt, who should not say a word, but by the British police, and Interpol. Like with the ‘war on terrorism’ they should have just kept the level down to the ‘prosecution of terrorist groups’ by FBI and no need to invade any countries. They feed off all this grandeur otherwise .-- DDRopDeadly, Mar 17 2018 It's obvious that it's not Vlad's Lads because they're better than that. The target's still alive - the attack was totally botched. Amateur hour.
He's ill, not dead, because the binary precursors weren't properly mixed. The components in their own right are very toxic, mind - hence the effect.
Weapons engineers from the former USSR have been selling their knowledge to the highest bidder for decades. Any reasonably competent undergraduate chemist can do the synthesis. No special feedstocks required, at least, nothing you can't make with off-the shelf reagents and a bit of graft.
Trust no-one.-- 8th of 7, Mar 17 2018 //Couldn't find anything definitive though..//
Seems I didn't try hard enough [link].
Strange thing is he appears to be oblivious to how much the fact he can provide that weakens his own argument that only the Russians can have made it?-- Skewed, Mar 17 2018 // only the Russians can have made it //
Your old Granny can knit some methyl flourophosphonyl alcohol for you, if you ask her nicely.
The U.S. of A. have had similar herbs and spices since the '70's, and PD makes "small" amounts for "research" purposes.
Do we need to point out that this is all 1940s technology ? It's all 1940's technology. The Nazis, having developed Sarin and Tabun in the 30's, were already researching more advanced agents. As with the Saturn V, designed by Herr Doktor Professor von Braun, Operation Paperclip provided a rich haul of other specialists, like the Horten brothers, and the developers of VX and VZ ...
Not to mention dear old Dr. Ishii and his compatriots from Unit 731, who oddly never got prosecuted for the slaughter by vivisection of tens of thousands of Chinese.
Pingfan ? Never heard of the place.
Has anyone swabbed the New York subway for traces of Serratia Narcessens recently ? There's probably still the odd bit floating round ...-- 8th of 7, Mar 17 2018 You probably meant Serratia marcescens. It's fantastically abundant, and it would be surprising if it were absent from the NY subway. Admittedly, the smell might put it off, but it's a persistent little bugger.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Mar 17 2018 Curse this spellchecker ...
Yes, you are correct <spit/>
There is, however, a specific strain beloved of the BW community for its staining traits.-- 8th of 7, Mar 17 2018 Ah yes. Those Bonsai Welsh activists will stoop to any depth.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Mar 17 2018 // stoop //
That is inconsistent with the observation that the usual instruction is "Grab your ankles" ....-- 8th of 7, Mar 17 2018 Motive , motive etc.. Putin has some old enemies and they seem to die, oddly after he said that they ought to choke to death. Somewhat like cause and effect. Not to say he must be morally responsible, I guess it could be other forces trying to make him look bad*. Or someone sucking up to him, a job interview?
* like with suicide bombers ..the govt said it isn’t keen on them, and then suddenly they start exploding. You might almost think it’s the govt doing it to ‘em - or do they just want us to THINK the govt is exploding them. Naughty..-- DDRopDeadly, Mar 18 2018 //Motive , motive//
My issue isn't with motive & frankly if he did or didn't do it is irrelevant to what is my issue.
My issue is with the fact they're saying the weapon used in this instance is [proof] it was him, more than that, they've gone as far as to claim it's [positive proof] & all by itself proves no one else can possibly have done it.
That is a lie, nothing more & nothing less.
Did Russia do it (they may have) & how to deal with them is a completely separate problem.-- Skewed, Mar 18 2018 // That is a lie, nothing more & nothing less. //
Of course it is. It's a government statement. It's what governments do.-- 8th of 7, Mar 18 2018 1) This is all a bit off-topic
2) //As an aside, we are highly amused at the way politicians and press have once again leapt to judgement, in the absence of any hard evidence. Oh, the agent was developed by the USSR, yes, but the formula and method of manufacture are well known.//
Did they though?I mean real politicians as opposed to Boris Johnson or similar mouth-pieces, and real press as opposed to the Sun?
Because I seem to remember Theresa May using words like "culpable" - i.e. either directly or through losing track of the chemical. For her that's pretty measured.
Some (i.e. Jeremy Corbyn) are saying to not get ahead of the evidence. Maybe you ignored them completely because you don't like their politics 8th.
3) The link Skewed gave to Craig Murray's blog suggests that it's ... quite hard to manufacture: "As I previously proved by referencing their publications, in 2013 the OPCW scientific advisory committee note the evidence was sparse that novichoks had ever been successfully produced, and that was still the line being published by Porton Down in 2016." (It goes on to say Iranian scientists apparently succeeded, and "If Iran can make a novichok, so can a significant number of states.") That makes it sound like making it isn't either easy or well known. (And no, there's no way I'm googling for a total synthesis protocol to check.)
4) //It's obvious that it's not Vlad's Lads because they're better than that. The target's still alive - the attack was totally botched. Amateur hour.//
Really? I mean, Russia seems to have a bit of a history of trying to (and generally succeeding after a few days) kill people with the most Bond-film-like poisoning plot they can think up. Ricin pellet from an umbrella-gun, radioactive powder, etc. It's like the're trying to one-up themselves in being able to deny it in the most implausible manner.
Not that I'm saying it _is_ a Russian attack. Just that they've got form - it's probably not a great idea to rule them out.-- Loris, Mar 19 2018 Fellas, just like you can trace paper by its element content, it may be possible to trace a poison by its trace element content as well.
Sometimes it’s best just to let the services do their job.
None of you lot work for them. There’s not a conspiracy under every rock, except in the White House perhaps.-- RayfordSteele, Mar 19 2018 //it may be possible to trace a poison by its trace element content as well.//
Of course it is - if (and only if) you have a standard to compare it to.-- Loris, Mar 19 2018 ... and the reagents weren't ordered out of the BDH or Sigma catalog, so looking at proportionating oxygen isotopes to localize the source all leads back to the same warehouse just outside Columbus, Oh.
// Some (i.e. Jeremy Corbyn) are saying to not get ahead of the evidence. Maybe you ignored them completely because you don't like their politics 8th. //
On the contrary, we agree, but for different reasons.
// Iranian scientists apparently succeeded, //
"Go, tell the Persians .... "
Hmm, that doesn't quite sound right.
// and "If Iran can make a novichok, so can a significant number of states.") //
i.e. "Everywhere except the Seychelles and Vanutu".
// That makes it sound like making it isn't either easy or well known. //
Making Methamphetamine isn't THAT easy, yet it's still a backyard industry.
// Ricin pellet from an umbrella-gun, //
That was the Bulgarians (using KGB-supplied kit).
// radioactive powder, etc. //
Polonium acetate solution.
// It's like the're trying to one-up themselves in being able to deny it in the most implausible manner. //
No, it's "making a point", very publicly.
// Not that I'm saying it _is_ a Russian attack. Just that they've got form - it's probably not a great idea to rule them out. //
Markov died. Litvinenko died. Lots of others have died. "Now hear this. Now hear this. No matter how far or fast you run, or where you hide, we can and will reach out across the globe and kill you, in a spectacularly unpleasant way". That is the message.
But to be credible, you have to succeed.-- 8th of 7, Mar 19 2018 On the other hand, the Skripals are not yet out of bed and singing the joys of spring.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Mar 19 2018 If MI6 doesn't have a sample to compare to then they haven't been doing their job.-- RayfordSteele, Mar 19 2018 They don't, and they haven't.-- 8th of 7, Mar 19 2018 You have an inside track on them? I’d go into hiding if that’s the case and I were you...-- RayfordSteele, Mar 19 2018 //That was the Bulgarians (using KGB-supplied kit).//
//Polonium acetate solution.//
//it's "making a point", very publicly.//
So, quibbles aside, what you're saying is that the previous Russian involvement in at least two high-profile arcane spy-poisoning events (and associated posturing) means they're very unlikely to be involved in any capacity in the current high-profile arcane spy-poisoning event?-- Loris, Mar 20 2018 yeah, that definition of insanity thing doesn't quite apply to probability does it? If you throw a die, you should be expecting different results each time. Just saying.-- theircompetitor, Mar 20 2018 Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on the media for presupposing that it was you again?-- RayfordSteele, Mar 20 2018 // what you're saying is that the previous Russian involvement in at least two high-profile arcane spy-poisoning events (and associated posturing) means they're very unlikely to be involved in any capacity in the current high-profile arcane spy-poisoning event? //
Two ? There have been dozens ....
Dead whale carcass ? Could that possibly be Japanese "Research" ?
Almost certainly. But it might, just might, be the Faeroese, or Inuit, or Maori. Unlikely, but possible.
"Officer, my city has been blasted off the planet by a first-generation fission bomb"
"Indeed, madam ? Well, have a look at these photographs. Have you seen this former vice-president ? Do you recognise this B29-B ?"
"Hmmm, maybe ... the one I saw was taller than that ... "
Evidence, evidence, evidence. What are the facts ? What can be proved beyond reasonable doubt ?
Who can you trust ?-- 8th of 7, Mar 20 2018 The Wombles. You can always trust the Wombles.
Although I have my doubts about Great Uncle Bulgaria.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Mar 20 2018 Ah yes, the Womble with the poisoned umbrella.
Another childhood illusion shattered, [MB] ? You can't have many left, shirley ?-- 8th of 7, Mar 20 2018 So Tomsk was just a patsy?-- pertinax, Mar 21 2018 Mere raw pastry in the hands of Madame Cholet, an arch-villaness if ever there was one.-- 8th of 7, Mar 21 2018 random, halfbakery