Many Christians believe that God has granted us the free will to make our own choices, for right or wrong. Some Christians also believe that the homosexual orientation is the result of a wrong choice, and a google search will find many avenues for Christians trying to re-educate, change behaviors and otherwise cope with the result of this choice.
But perhaps a wrong choice is the result of poor information? We teach our children the things they need to make right choices in other avenues of life, but perhaps we are not as careful to teach them what they need to know to make the right choice as regards sexual orientation. Our world is full of negative reinforcements for wrong choices. But what about positive reinforcements for right choices?
It is to help with this that Heterosexual Camp was founded. This is a camp for young girls and boys in which they will have positive, age-appropriate experiences reinforcing heterosexuality. This will occur in the context of a fun and nurturing environment that emphasizes the teachings of Christ, respect for ones own body and self, and abstinence before marriage.-- bungston, Aug 06 2009 The Ex-Gay movement http://www.timesonl.../article4893735.eceStatus quo of practical religious homophobia. [jutta, Aug 06 2009] Gratuitous plug for one of my favorite authors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dirty_JobAll of his works are great fun, but this one is the treatise on the "Beta male" [normzone, Aug 07 2009] born gay? procon.org's summary of ten core disputed questions http://borngay.proc...p?resourceID=000005 [jutta, Aug 07 2009] South Park episode 1102: "Cartman Sucks" http://www.southpar...dios.com/guide/1102"Bi-curious" Butters is sent to Camp NewGrace. [Jim Bob of Merriam Park, Aug 08 2009] then there are dolphins... http://www.youtube....watch?v=b0vGamcQIYs [po, Aug 08 2009] Topp Twins, lesbian entertainers from New Zealand http://topptwins.co...her-and-camp-leaderCamp Mother and Camp Leader run the Happy Valley Camping Ground and are the Topp Twins’ best-known and well-loved characters. [Pellepeloton, Aug 11 2009] overbaked http://groups.yahoo.com/group/overbaked/Want to tell everybody your theory about where their sexuality comes from, based on carefully cherry-picked historical myths? Do it here. [jutta, Aug 13 2009, last modified Aug 14 2009] As long as you're teaching abstinence before marriage, your giving them a reason to feel slighted later and retaliate with poor choices. At the very least they will hate their parents for a few years, run amok with revelry and promiscuity before realizing that, even though abstinence is silly, so is sex in public restrooms with multiple partners.-- daseva, Aug 06 2009 So, a brothel run by Plymouth Brethren, then? No cult should be allowed to interfere with children, at any time or in any sense of the word. [-]-- MaxwellBuchanan, Aug 06 2009 So say Brother Dawkins.-- theleopard, Aug 06 2009 //emphasizes the teachings of Christ// So "love thy neighbour as thyself"?-- AbsintheWithoutLeave, Aug 06 2009 This idea is completely sarcastic...
Right?-- DrWorm, Aug 06 2009 Let me get this straight, you want me to send my daughter/son to a camp where priests can monitor her/his sexual progress? Never mind the brainwashing ect. which come with these do-gooder camps... You have made a terrible idea worse.-- danman, Aug 06 2009 This goes along with "Drunk for Jesus", the Anti-Drug Camp for Teenagers.-- FlyingToaster, Aug 06 2009 I don't know...
There're two reasons which empirically point to homosexuality being a choice - and maybe [bungston]'s idea should get a second look.
#1). How can a 'gay gene' survive? If you were born with the first 'gay' chromosome set mutation, how will it propagate? It doesn't matter if you are a gay x-x or x-y, your "dummy host" isn't inclined to reproduce...
#2). This has happened and been proved twice, Empirically. You can make people "gay". YES YOU CAN. (Stop castigating your stones; let me explain.) The "Janissaries" and "Spartans" were environmentally gay. After the second Peloponnesian war, the Athenian League completely dismantled Sparta, effectively curbing the forced homosexuality of 6-yr-old girls and 7-yr-old boys. There are now NO significantly higher rates of Homosexuality in Greece, than anywhere else - yet, they're the same peoples. (I took the Helots into consideration.)
Islamic states (many) had kidnapped Christian boys and forced them to be Janissaries: ultimate warriors to kill other Christians. They didn't want them to procreate, so they taught them to be gay early; and it usually took. Even Vlad the Impaler had a Gay streak after he escaped.
My point is that "gay" seems to be environmental: taught, not genetic; and genetic gayness almost doesn't make sense. How are you going to pass on your gay gene(s)?
Maybe [bungston] has a point...-- Speed Razor, Aug 07 2009 Having known gay dogs, horses, and cats, as well as the not uncommon humans, I'd have to say that there must be some genetic factors outside of your calculations. Either that, or there are gay cultural pressures in the animal communities, and I'll be damned if I can figure out how that would work.-- normzone, Aug 07 2009 gayness is probably genetic. the switched on *gay* gene enhances the women of the family to have more children obviously at the sake of the male side i.e. gay men tend to have a lot of relations on their mother's side. the gay gene I believe is located on the X chromosome inherited from mum.-- po, Aug 07 2009 btw, when it comes to variety in sex in the animal kingdom, look no further than ducks :)-- po, Aug 07 2009 [bungston] - are you ok?-- xenzag, Aug 07 2009 //Let me get this straight//
*snort*-- skinflaps, Aug 07 2009 I wonder if dear bungston isn't making a point in re fat camps and the "it's genetic" vs "you're lazy" divide. I like the point, it is funny and well made.
Setting aside the point, the idea gives me the creeps, perhaps because a distinction can - and really must - be drawn between chubbytude and queerosity on the basis that food is something that is (a) required for the individual's life to continue and (b) required from birth (or before, depending on your def of food), where as frottaging, cottaging, fuck and suck are neither. Sure, send kids to camp in the expectation that they, or at least some of them, will learn and thing or two about sex but don't expect (let alone mandate) that the camp leaders to be involved.-- calum, Aug 07 2009 <smacks forehead> "camp" as in "camp comedy", "camp actor" "camp TV host". D'Oh! </sf>-- coprocephalous, Aug 07 2009 Would this camp have some kind of technique training program?-- RayfordSteele, Aug 07 2009 all that is irrelevant now that sperm has been created in a test tube :)-- po, Aug 07 2009 //This is a camp for young girls and boys in which they will have positive, age-appropriate experiences reinforcing heterosexuality//
As run by a certain type of Catholic priest for many years...-- Jinbish, Aug 07 2009 Ah, sex and religion. If only you hadn't missed out politics, bungston, you could have had a full house - which would promptly have been consumed by flames obviously. //they will have positive, age-appropriate experiences reinforcing heterosexuality// Well, positive experiences unlesss they happen to be gay of course. If this is an ironic idea then I'm not getting it but, if calum can see the humour, I shall withhold my intended avalanche of fishbones pending further clarification.-- DrBob, Aug 07 2009 I think they call this camp 'co-ed junior-varsity.'-- RayfordSteele, Aug 07 2009 well I must say I was drawn to the abundance of fish-bones on this idea, but [bungston] must have something up his sleeve, so I will refrain from adding to the pile at the moment....-- xandram, Aug 07 2009 probably shouldnt call it camp. If this was erected (huh huh) I'd build one over the road for the gay kids and call it Camp Gay Camp or some other tortology.
Stop analysing 'gays' people. Move on. Grow up.-- dja, Aug 07 2009 [bigsleep], for a fun read do go get Christopher Moore's "Dirty Job". His theory about the survival of the Beta males is right along with your comments.-- normzone, Aug 07 2009 I thought it a humorous pitting of one bible-belt faction against another, but the last paragraph obviates that. So it's probably a serious idea in which case I'm confused... wait, let me rephrase that.
//Stop analysing 'gays' people//ummm sure, but just to be politically correct shouldn't we then erase every mention of sexuality, other personal preference/leanings, etc. etc. etc., too... or is it just "gay" you want people to pretend doesn't exist ?-- FlyingToaster, Aug 07 2009 I don't see any problem with this at all, except for the sexual focus.
I wish religions would butt out of sex - I love Jesus as much as anyone else, but I still don't want him in my bedroom.
On genes, like po suggests; What if a 'gay' gene isn't as simple as on = gay, off = not gay. What if there's a 'fancy blokes not women' set of programming that gets flipped one way or another during gestation (or maybe later on) - which answers the "How does evolution support a 'gay' gene?" question with a simple "Ahh but, there isn't one."
People can be born with a spectrum of sexual features from extravagantly female via an inbetween state to extravagantly male (let's be even more clear, people are born with a spectrum of *features* sexual or otherwise that follow the bell-curve) Why do we try to suggest that sexual preference is defined using some other process?
That being said, I think it would be simplistic to suggest that socialisation plays no role at all - but in order to socialise towards a set of desired behaviours, you have to accept that anything requiring artificial socialisation must, to some extent, across the distribtion of the populace, be innate, otherwise there'd be no need to socialise against it. QED.-- zen_tom, Aug 07 2009 Possible idea...along similar (albeit non Christian) lines: Gay Niqab - Everyone wears Niqabs, all the time - so as not to fall into interpersonal sexual temptation.-- zen_tom, Aug 07 2009 [zen_tom]: I like your bell-curve analogy for Human Sexuality, and that maybe there isn't an 'always on/always off' gay gene specifically: maybe it's a full spectrum. This would kind of explain how a gay gene doesn't just weed itself right back out of the gene-pool. (If true, you DO realize the ramifications of this idea, though? To a more or lesser degree, we are ALL part gay, than.)
Is [bungston] still with us? Maybe somebody should check his blood-sugar...-- Speed Razor, Aug 07 2009 I appreciate the debate and the moderate tones. Also I greatly appreciate Jutta's link which is a trenchant example of what motivated me to post this. Christians love their kids and want to teach them how to tell right from wrong. If one assumes being gay is chosen, as these Christians do, would it not be better to reinforce the right choice rather than castigate the wrong?
But how does one show children examples of the right choice, especially in a subculture that frowns on explicit sex ed and overt discussions of the sex act itself. This paradox is what prompted the camp concept.
The other thing, and I think maybe some of the annos caught it, is that it is left unclear what exactly are "positive, age-appropriate experiences reinforcing heterosexuality" - again back to the difficulty with the nuts and bolts, so to speak, involved in this project. What exactly goes on at this camp? Maybe Luke 7:36-50 type things? I would not be the one to design the curriculum, but during my formative years (and still) I welcomed all the experiences of the heterosexuality-reinforcing sort I could get and so would be happy to attend the above described camp regardless of religious affiliation.-- bungston, Aug 07 2009 Hi [Speed Razor] close, but no cigar - I'm not suggesting that there's a "gay" gene, or even a gay bell-curve - what I'm saying is that there are (at least) two separate things going on:
1) Your physical sexuality - on a spectrum from girly girl with large breasts, big hips, and well developed female genitals - via andronginous - to big, hairy bearded man with huge hands, feet and genitals on a scale from - let's say -10 to +10 where feminine = negative and masculine = positive.
and *separately* -
2) Your sexual preference, again (let's imagine) on a scale of -10 to +10 with fancying female features *a lot* at -10 and fancying male features *a lot* at +10 (with finding Grace Jones, or David Bowie attractive somewhere between -2 to +2)
So, you might be born a -10 feminine-girl, and have a +10 preference for massive motor-cyclists - or you might be a +5 bloke who quite likes women (preference rating of -5), but who might not be all that keen on spending a night with Dolly Parton.
If you decouple the physicality and the preference, then you can get combinations of a physical +10 man who has a preference for weedy (+3) men, or -3 "butch" women who like -10 girly girls.
So that's two genes, one that controls what sex you are, and another that controls what sexual features you find attractive. It's the *combination* of these two separate processes that we label as being straight or gay - so no, it doesn't mean you have to be "a little bit gay" at all.
Or at least, I expect that's how it works.-- zen_tom, Aug 07 2009 I would imagine that this would be a design for all juvenile co-ed camps regardless of religious or moral affiliations (remember it's in the State's best interest to foster heterosexuality, for self-propagation). The problem is that if homosexuality is environmental, then chances are the children will be returned to the environment that fostered it in the first place.-- FlyingToaster, Aug 07 2009 its chromosomes what controls what sex you are.
there's also a school of thought that proposes that a mother's immune system produces more antibodies to protect her from male-specific proteins from each baby son she carries and these increasing antibodies say with a 3rd or 4th male foetus could cross the blood streams via the placenta and affect the proteins that the boy requires for his sexual development.-- po, Aug 07 2009 Famous graffiti:
"My mother made me a homosexual" (scrawled beneath) "If I gave her the wool, would she make me one?"-- AbsintheWithoutLeave, Aug 07 2009 This would create stalkers.-- nineteenthly, Aug 07 2009 I suspect that most people have a little gay in them.
Mine actually sits on my shoulder and tells me that I should record more Denzel Washington movies on the TIVO.
A lot of activities (like prom) are hetero-socialization activities. Gay dudes go to those, and they're still as gay as Jake Twist when you run across them on facebook 20 years later.
There's some of this and that, but some guys are just going to be gay.-- nomocrow, Aug 07 2009 I don't see it that way. I think there are people one feels drawn to express love for sexually, and there are people who might be prepared to do sexual stuff you'd both be into with, but their gender isn't relevant. I'm married to a woman, of course, but as well as emotional attachment there are practical reasons for it, primarily the opportunity to have children together and pursue the joint project of bringing them up. That's harder to achieve in a homosexual relationship, but in any case it might not be a priority for you.-- nineteenthly, Aug 08 2009 //btw, when it comes to variety in sex in the animal kingdom, look no further than ducks :)//
[po], are you saying that there is a proclivity for gayness in the Duck Fauna? I'd never noticed that before. How would that work? What do gay Girl ducks, do? Not having a tongue and only a bill might make it hard for "Daisy" Ducks to get it on with each o ... <light bulb click>, Oohh! ... I might have just realized how girl ducks do it! Color my face red...
Hhmmnn, a possible business niche would be a Daffy and Donald gay duck cartoon pornography franchise. Any takers?-- Speed Razor, Aug 08 2009 I believe a gay duck cartoon has been done already.-- po, Aug 09 2009 //Let me get this straight// //Stop anal/ysing 'gays' people// //butt out of sex - I love Jesus as much as anyone else, but I still don't want him in my bedroom.//
[bungston], bungston, bungston, whatever where you thinking? This idea is flaming queer.-- BunsenHoneydew, Aug 10 2009 This is just wrong. This is a parent's responsibility.-- twitch, Aug 11 2009 I havent collected so many bones since my "Sport Whaling" concept.-- bungston, Aug 11 2009 Funny-as-Hell!: [bigsleep]'s link ... [po]'s link: scary! (I'm still of an skeptical mind, but an amazing documentary sketch, nonetheless.)
It should be noted that, as mentioned in the [po] video, both male and female dolphins almost seem to have an clitoris-like exterior sensory organ. (I'm, of course, extrapolating a little, but after looking it up: it seems to be true!)
If I'm re-incarnated as a Dolphin, I might become gay! "Hey dude, bop me!" "No dude, bop me first!" Yes, I'm exaggerating at your expense, [po], but mightn't this be construed as environmental gayness? Gayness of convenience? (Is that a term?)-- Speed Razor, Aug 11 2009 On the other side of the fence you have the Gay & Lesbian Camp run run by openly gay Topp Twins, from New Zealand.
These Topp Twins, Camp Mother and Camp leader Jools and Linda respectively , strut their stuff around the country on their show and I have heard they even have made a movie. I am not sure of the r-rating as I have not seen it. Not high on my list of priorities.-- Pellepeloton, Aug 11 2009 Already looks like this one 's been beaten to death, but since I don't see any other annotators who actually ARE gay, I feel the need to butt in.
First, trust me, it's not a choice. Not really open for discussion. As gay today as I was when I first saw boobies in my best friend's Dad's stash of Playboys. Just the way way it is.
Second, this is about as absurdly subversively homophobic as a concept could be. You may as well send your gay kid to wrestling camp.
Maybe you're right. Maybe your gay kid should be set straight. Why would you want them to end up like me? Well-educated; in a stable, long-term, caring relationship; professionally successful; financial secure -- who would want that for their kid?-- Diatonic, Aug 13 2009 I would like to go to one of those places where they teach about Christ, respect for one's body, and abstinence. I would stay there as long as I could, white knuckling the drudgery that Christ never meant to have happen and, just when I'm about to fully loose my mind to the forces that are forced, I'll run. Run, run, run far and away and then I'll probably run some more... That would be a really great feeling, I imagine.-- daseva, Aug 13 2009 Please take it to overbaked. Thanks.-- jutta, Aug 13 2009 // 8th Deadly Sin? //
Please. give us credit for a little imagination ..... our Deadly Sin is a lot more ingenious than THAT ....-- 8th of 7, Aug 13 2009 [marked-for-deletion] widely known to exist, also not an invention.-- WcW, Aug 14 2009 [admin: I don't want to delete this. Generally, the idea of having a camp that teaches some behavior or other should fall under "advocacy". But this isn't meant like that - it's a nonexistent camp, intended as an illustration for the conflict between the churches' desire to have people behave heterosexually yet not have sex.]-- jutta, Oct 13 2009 I would never intentionally foment a flame war. I f I want that I can listed to talk radio. Some of my "inventions" start with a set of premises and a manner of thinking, then extend these within their framework to a new and consistent invention - a sort of "reductio ad absurdum". To coin a phrase, my intention is to speculate, both as a form of satire and as a form of creative expression. Part of the fun is to see what the other HB participants think. I am pleased that even when people hate my schemes the attacks almost never get personal.
In general, discussion on the HB seems reasonably moderate and good spirited, and sometimes even educational and thought provoking - or at least such is the case in the threads I read. Thus I keep coming back.-- bungston, Oct 14 2009 // foster heterosexuality, for self-propagation //
<pedantry>
If you want self-propagation, it isn't heterosexuality you want, it's hermaphrodicity.
</pedantry>-- 8th of 7, Oct 14 2009 <random> "Siddartha you get your lazy butt out from under that tree... and don't give me any of that "meditation" garbage: this is the third time I've asked you and the lawn won't mow itself..." </random>
[edit] is a joke.-- FlyingToaster, Oct 14 2009 I didn't get the joke till I read [bungston]'s later explanation of Aug7. I had boned, but have since switched sides. This is a tight rope walk across two explosive subjects to reach a thoughtful joke but I believe it is made and he should get credit for it. (+)-- MisterQED, Oct 14 2009 random, halfbakery