It is possible to make exact scale models of aircraft that are perfectly flyable: a 1/3 scale radio controlled Spitfire has been flown across the English Channel.
The Spitfire is without question the best aircraft ever. But it is a single seater, and a cramped single seater at that. There are a couple of tandem trainers, but that's it.
Now, BorgAir are designing a 3 x scale model of the Spitfire. It looks like a Spitfire, it's just three times bigger, and seats four people. It's powered by two Merlin XXIV's or Griffons, mounted in tandem.
Now everyone can have that flight they've always dreamed of.-- 8th of 7, May 15 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boops_boops [not_morrison_rm, May 15 2012] Seagull v Spitfire http://www.flickr.c...scrumbs/4844380205/Poop v Bullets [skinflaps, May 15 2012] James May version http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8327914.stm [UnaBubba, May 15 2012] A dirty Fokker! https://en.wikipedi...ki/Fokker_Eindecker [DrBob, May 15 2012] P-47 vs Spitfire (and everything else) http://www.wwiiairc...-47/p-47c-afdu.htmlDidn't know they had ASCII text back then. [doctorremulac3, May 15 2012] Best propeller driven fighter plane http://en.wikipedia...Grumman_F8F_Bearcat [doctorremulac3, May 15 2012] Low Flying Spitfire http://www.youtube....watch?v=Wpq4Tu2NnrQrather impressive close to ground [xenzag, May 15 2012] The Jug. King of the WW2 fighters? http://www.368thfig...group.com/P-47.htmlThe more I learn the more that looks like the case. [doctorremulac3, May 15 2012] Welding sparks some foamy fun. http://theaviationi...2/05/14/foam-party/ [AusCan531, May 16 2012] F22 hypoxia http://www.bbc.co.u...-us-canada-18081936 [not_morrison_rm, May 16 2012] Replica Spitfire http://www.telegrap...dron-takes-off.html [hippo, May 16 2012] Z1300 http://feetforwards...z1300qsr/index.html [not_morrison_rm, May 18 2012] Les Barker http://monologues.c...ny_News_Iceberg.htmA moving vehicle accident can be very bad news for all parties involved … [8th of 7, May 19 2012] Build it, and they will bun.-- AbsintheWithoutLeave, May 15 2012 > tandem
They both have to pedal very hard to achieve lift off speed, surely? Oh, I made a boo(ps) boo(ps)..
But seriously, I like the idea.-- not_morrison_rm, May 15 2012 Armed with .909 inch machine guns and 60mm cannon.-- AbsintheWithoutLeave, May 15 2012 Jumbo sized 875,000 lb seagull.I wonder as to whether that is what R.J. Mitchell was thinking of?
[+]-- skinflaps, May 15 2012 Airfix?-- UnaBubba, May 15 2012 Airfix seagull?-- skinflaps, May 15 2012 Giant 4-seater Airfix seagull ?-- 8th of 7, May 15 2012 "And in other news, a potato chip factory was yesterday destroyed by a gigantic, blue, plastic seagull. It was apparently controlled by a corpulent fellow in a WWII fighter pilot's helmet.
The three passengers in the err.. "aircraft" with him were wearing Tshirts emblazoned with a partially eaten croissant.
Police suspect, based upon that evidence that it may be part of a French plot to reclaim the Pommes Frites for France, despite it originally having been invented by a Belgian, in America."-- UnaBubba, May 15 2012 //The Spitfire is without question the best aircraft ever.//
Piston engine category perhaps. The best aircraft ever is clearly the F-22, which holds the honor of extending beyond the category of "Best aircraft ever" and into the category of "Best things ever". As in "#1: Hot date with a pair of underwear models. #2: The F-22 Raptor...."
With a little tweaking an F-22 could shoot down a flight of Spitfires without even leaving the ground. Granted, this is matching Ali with Tyson, two different time periods, but if we're talking "Best" it must be mentioned. [+] despite the typo.-- doctorremulac3, May 15 2012 // With a little tweaking an F-22 could shoot down a flight of Spitfires without even leaving the ground//That's useful, given the number of fleet groundings and semi-conscious pilots.These "underwear models"...are they Airfix too? How do you get them off the sprue?-- AbsintheWithoutLeave, May 15 2012 //That's useful, given the number of fleet groundings and semi-conscious pilots.//
Touche', but can't say I didn't see that coming.-- doctorremulac3, May 15 2012 //a potato chip factory was yesterday destroyed by a gigantic, blue, plastic seagull.
No, no, go do the Citroen factory. They're used to it. It bombed by the Germans and then repeatedly bombed by the RAF..for exactly the same reason, to stop the enemy using it's aluminium welding equipment. So being shot up by a huge Spitfire will just seem like business as usual.-- not_morrison_rm, May 15 2012 I'm pretty sure I saw a spitfire going along a motorway, once.-- Loris, May 15 2012 //The Spitfire is without question the best aircraft ever.//
Now, that's just begging for an argument. If I were just a teensy bit more egotistical, I'd say that statement was targeted directly at me.
Ah, but what criteria to base our comparison on? Vintage or modern? Military or civilian? Fixed-wing, rotor, or LTA?
A-10 Warthog gets my vote. Survivability, versatility, manueverability, and a big fucking gun.
But, yeah, spits were awesome, and [+] for this. Fun for the whole family. Does it have 3x the guns? Oh, and if you mount the Merlins inline with a hollow shaft, you can run a CR double to maintain that single-prop appearance.-- Alterother, May 15 2012 Any computer programmer worth his Mountain Dew and Cheetos should be able to make a program that would pit various fighters against each other in simulation while taking pilot skill out of the equation.
Then you could program in different scenarios and see what happens. First thing I'd try is a squadron of P-47s against an equal number of Spitfires. Not all that far apart in speed, rate of climb etc, slight edge to the Spits, but ability to take punishment, double the range and 8 fifty caliber machine guns might put the jug in the win column. By win I mean whichever plane had 1 left flying.
See link of actual comparison done during WW2. No mention though of the P-47's ability to take punishment which was legendary and what might put the Jugs over the Spitfires. (maybe)-- doctorremulac3, May 15 2012 Much though I love the Spitfire, I am not sure I can bun this. Part of the appeal of the Spit was its size - it looks like it was designed to be worn by the pilot. It makes modern fighters look ridiculous - more like aerial battleships which are kept aloft only by electronics and huge amounts of power.
So, a bigger version? Nah - it just wouldn't look right, except from a distance.-- MaxwellBuchanan, May 15 2012 Actually, scratch the P-47. Looks like a F8F Bearcat would eat Spitfires for lunch. See link and check the specs. Speed, rate of climb, range everything waaaay outmatches the Spitfires.
Spitfires definately win the beauty contest though.-- doctorremulac3, May 15 2012 Endurance was a huge factor, but manueverability on paper is one thing... In the air, a different story. A great pilot could make a Spit dance circles around a Jug (which is my favorite single-engine craft of the era, so don't think I'm discriminating). A Spit could also pull out of a steep dive much faster. On a head- to-head pass between squadrons, you're going to lose a lot of Spits and maybe one or two Jugs; the P-47, as noted, had devastating firpower. However, it was a 'stable' airplane--which made it so wonderful for ground attack-- so once the furball started, it would be at a serious disadvantage against the Spitfires.
The Bearcat, as well, was stable (Americans had a penchant for building fighters that flew straight and level, while the Brits took notes from the Germans), without the inherent instability that made airplanes like Spitfires and Mustangs so nimble. The paper stats don't reflect things like how fast the plane could snap-roll or loop, how quickly it could recover from a stall (a favorite tactic of Spit pilots), and how easily it could be made to slip and yaw, vital when eluding pursuit. The trade-off for these attributes was having an aircraft that operated right on the very edge of control all the time, requiring constant attention just to hold it in place. Reportedly, flying a Spitfire on an extended mission was the ultimate test of a fighter pilot's endurance.
The computer simulation would be telling, but flawed; no computer can match a pilot in the seat.
[Max], no better description of a modern fighter can be made. They are completely unflyable without the electronics, and designed to sit just over the horizon and fling massive amounts of bad news at distant enemies--just like a battleship.-- Alterother, May 15 2012 I need to find the video from a show called "Dogfights" where a P-47 got oil from it's shot up engine all over the canopy so the pilot could barely see. That canopy was also shot up so he couldn't open it to bail out. I believe it was a ME109 that just followed behind and kept shooting but couldn't take it down. At one point the German flew along side, saw the condition the Jug was in and shook his head in amazement before returning to the American's 6 oclock where he emptied the rest of his ammo into him to no avail. The Jug just kept flying. As the 109 flew off the American took one last shot at it (in it's general direction) as a final act of defiance. When he finally landed there were several hundred holes in the plane which had survived despite being turned into confetti.-- doctorremulac3, May 15 2012 Back on the original idea, I'm under the impression that wing size has to scale up more quickly than body size (area of wing compares to mass, therefore volume of body). When scaling down, this increases the proportional lift which isn't usually a problem, but it puts a fairly strict limit on scaling up.-- MechE, May 15 2012 [doc], I've seen that same show, and read several personal accounts of such occurances.-- Alterother, May 15 2012 Yea, I don't think a Spitfire with it's water cooled inline engine could survive a leak in it's cooling system much less being shredded to pieces like that. Here's the stat I found:
"The heavily armored (P-47) plane sustained 824 combat losses, only .07% of the Jugs didn't return from a combat mission, the lowest total of any Allied fighter."-- doctorremulac3, May 15 2012 The P-47 also had redundant systems and many of its piping was cleverly hidden in and under the hefty engine block. Later in the war, many were fitted with improved self-sealing fuel tanks that actually worked.
Spits had _supposedly_ self-sealing tanks, but they didn't always work, and the positioning of the fuselage tanks behind and and under the pilot meant that fuel would often spray into the cockpit when the plane was hit from behind. Pilot losses from severe burns were horrifically common during the Battle of Britain.-- Alterother, May 15 2012 Sorry 8, I'm afraid you have to retract: "The Spitfire is without question the best aircraft ever."
You can however replace is with "The Spitfire is without question the coolest aircraft ever." with few disagreeing. Although I'd still put Raptors up there. Woozy, blue faced, hallucinating pilots and all.-- doctorremulac3, May 15 2012 I will only agree to "the Spitfire is _one of_ the greatest/coolest aircraft ever."-- Alterother, May 15 2012 Well, I always knew the Jug was badass, but the more I read the more it looks like the un-glamorous Jug was top dog of the WW2 fighters.
"Seven of the top 10 European Aces flew the P-47 Thunderbolt against the Luftwaffe." (wow)
"The Thunderbolt flew twice as many sorties and dropped 2,010% more tonnage than any other Allied fighter." (see link)
Re: The P-38. An amazing plane. One could only imagine where they might have ranked loaded with 2 Merlins instead of the Allisons they were powered by.
Re: The Raptor. I saw that 60 minutes episode and remember, one of the guys refusing to pilot it said it's the most invincible plane to ever fly. You just need to hold your breath while you're doing it.
They'll iron out the kinks.-- doctorremulac3, May 15 2012 // Well, I always knew the Jug was badass, but the more I read the more it looks like the un-glamorous Jug was top dog of the WW2 fighters. //
Many have thought so. Bottom line: it got the job done.
A close second for my top single-engine pick is the Il-2; it was a ground attack aircraft, not a fighter, but it scores high for sheer invincibility. Swarms of 109s would empty their guns into it and the sucker would just keep tooling along, picking off Tiger tanks like it was swatting flies.
The P-38 scores a tie for my WWII twin-engine top pick, alongside the Mosquito. Both very, very cool aircraft. The P-38 especially was beloved by its crew, who often claimed it could outfight any single-engine fighter in the war. Given some of the tactics they developed that played to its strengths (speed, climb, firepower, and flat-out acceleration from cruise), they were often right. Japanese pilots were terrified of them, dubbing them "fork-tailed devils."-- Alterother, May 15 2012 Has no-one a kind word for the P-51 ?
// "The Spitfire is without question the coolest aircraft ever." with few disagreeing. //
Fair enough. It is agile, fast, but above all aesthetically beautiful beyond measure. For those that disagree, bring forth the Wicker Man ...-- 8th of 7, May 15 2012 Lovely plane, right up until you tried to land it, at which point the engines had a tendency to catch fire ...-- 8th of 7, May 15 2012 The Mustang was a great plane, but, like the Corsair, late to game and based on the merit of its predecessors. Plus, I have thing for unsung heroes. If something is popular, I won't automatically reject it, but I will wander around the back to see what's in its shadow.
And the Spit is without doubt the _prettiest_ fighter plane of all time.-- Alterother, May 15 2012 // The P-38. An amazing plane. One could only imagine where they might have ranked loaded with 2 Merlins instead of the Allisons //
Same as the P-51, which was something of a lemon until the Allison was replaced by a Merlin.
Oh, that sound ....-- 8th of 7, May 15 2012 Anyone may correct me here, but I believe I read in some book or another that there was a structural issue limiting the maximum horsepower that the P-38's frame could handle.-- Alterother, May 15 2012 P-51s, the earlier models before they bubble-cannopied it, easily rival Spitfires for looks: very handsome compared to very pretty.-- FlyingToaster, May 15 2012 // easily rival Spitfires for looks //
No, not with the big radiator airscoop underneath, and (mainly) the square wingtips.
If you can find something that flies that's more beautiful than Mitchell's elliptical wing, then you can plait sand.-- 8th of 7, May 15 2012 well, there's always Shenstone's elliptical wing.
The bellyscoop on the Mustang added panache to the design.-- FlyingToaster, May 15 2012 I agree with the Borg. The Mustang is sort of a generic- looking WWII fighter, which makes sense because it is an amalgam of most of the things that worked best in all of the different planes that came before it.-- Alterother, May 15 2012 // The bellyscoop on the Mustang added panache to the design //
No, it just makes it look eggbound.
Step this way, the oil and the faggots are prepared…-- 8th of 7, May 15 2012 //amalgam// you mean "amalgam" in the sense of "it has a pilot and an engine and guns just like the rest of them" ?
The laminar flow wing was one of the defining attributes of the Mustang.
The P-38's engines size was limited in the sense that the charging and cooling arrangements couldn't handle a bigger engine, ie: they'd have to be redesigned too.-- FlyingToaster, May 15 2012 // You can have your prettiness all you like... looks don't win battles //
Oh yes they do…
In 1940, the Krauts came buzzing across the Channel in their ugly,crop-winged, boxy ME109's. As soon as they saw a Spit, they felt inferior; any pilot would.
And then, they might get on the tail of a Spit and every airman's instinct would cry out, "I can't harm it, it's too beautiful…" and in that moment their quarry would escape.
So there.-- 8th of 7, May 15 2012 // The laminar flow wing was one of the defining attributes of the Mustang. //
True, as was the Meredith radiator, please forgive me overlooking those two innovations, but everything else was cherrypicked from other successful Allied designs. The ram-air arrangement came from the P-40, the collapsible- strut undercarriage and the cross-tensioned fuselage came from Hawker, the gun bays were lifted directly out of the P-47 from the moment the decision was made to mount .50s, the core engine was entirely British, etc. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I just think that so many different elements brought together in one airframe made for a pretty homogenized appearance. In terms of a distinctive look, the Mustang sits near the bottom of the stack. Doesn't mean it couldn't fly fucking rings around the opposition. Remember, a P-51 was the only fighter credited with an ME-262 kill.
// The P-38's engines size was limited in the sense that the charging and cooling arrangements couldn't handle a bigger engine, ie: they'd have to be redesigned too. //
Yes, thank you. I knew I'd read something about why the P- 38 couldn't handle a more powerful engine.-- Alterother, May 15 2012 I recall reading of one pilot who said, "If you needed to take evasive action in a P-47 you just took off your harness and ran in circles around the inside of the cockpit."
It's the largest and heaviest single engine aircraft in history.-- UnaBubba, May 15 2012 That sounds about right. The one I rode in at Duxford was a two-seat trainer of course, which has significantly less than double the cockpit space of a single-seater. At 6'3", I only had to squeeze a little. My head didn't even touch the canopy.-- Alterother, May 15 2012 Hey [Alterother], have you been doing any welding in hangars lately? [link]-- AusCan531, May 16 2012 Nice.
Sadly, I'm not to blame. Haven't been doing any welding at all, for a little over a year. It'll be a little while, yet.-- Alterother, May 16 2012 P-47: //It's the largest and heaviest single engine aircraft in history// [UB], you'll need to add a number of qualifiers to make that a true statement.
The Spitfire does stand quite apart on my all-time favorites list as a genuinely good-looking aircraft. For some reason, most of my faves are as ugly as swamp roadkill - the Warthog, the Phantom, a whole series of 'Forts - the only other "pretty" plane on my list would be the Vulcan.
Guess it stands to reason, though - who but a Brit would think to fly a piece of art into a war?-- lurch, May 16 2012 I've always had a special place in my hardware-lovin' heart for the Harrier. Amongst other features, I love how the cockpit splits the duct in front of a single giant turbine. Whenever I see one in a museum, the docents have to come and chase me away.
Actually, that's the case with a lot of things I see in museums.-- Alterother, May 16 2012 F22 hypoxia - "The defence secretary has also asked for a back-up oxygen system to be put into the planes, with the first of these due to be installed in December." Beeb news today.
Well, no point in rushing these things is there?
Hang on F22 , kabbadi, is there a link?-- not_morrison_rm, May 16 2012 You could do it with other planes, too - the Tiger Mothra, the de Havilland Planet, the Big-29.-- friendlyfire, May 16 2012 >That foam incident occurred at Eglin..
and nobody made a snowman?-- not_morrison_rm, May 16 2012 [Alter] was working as a welder at Eglin, that day?
I wondered why he wasn't allowed near welding machinery for a while.-- UnaBubba, May 16 2012 //a 1/3 scale radio controlled Spitfire has been flown across the English Channel//Thereby prompting French air-traffic controllers to strike, and the Armée de l'Air to surrender to the bemused aeromodeller.-- AbsintheWithoutLeave, May 16 2012 You can buy (and pilot) a 9/10ths scale Spitfire for $210,000 (see link).-- hippo, May 16 2012 //hereby prompting French air-traffic controllers to strike, and the Armée de l'Air to surrender to the bemused aeromodeller.//
Gotta say, that's just damned good satire. I can picture the Monty Python guys playing the scene out with outrageously stereotypical French outfits and accents. The guy at the radar wearing the beret and striped shirt throws down his grocery bag with the baguette sticking out the top and yells "Mon Dieu! Ve are under ze attack! Zees is not within ze terms of our collective bargaining agreement! Ve strike at once!" then cut to the French Air Force command center. "Ve are under attack! Raise ze battle flag!" then smash cut to a white flag being raised while the La Marseillaise plays in the background as the little buzzing model flies by.
By the way, I retract the above if any French people are reading this. Absinth started it.-- doctorremulac3, May 16 2012 //You can buy (and pilot) a 9/10ths scale Spitfire//Yeah, but where are you going to get 0.2727 bullets and 18mm cannon shells?-- AbsintheWithoutLeave, May 16 2012 .28 caliber handgun rounds are commonly available on the open market, and 18mm autocannon shells, while uncommon, are used by the South African Army and the IDF. The Japanese used to use 18mm quads, but have recently converted to 20mm AA guns of American design (made right here in Maine by General Dynamics), so perhaps they have some surplus belted 18mm frangibles and tracers.
// I wondered why he wasn't allowed near welding machinery for a while. //
[UB], I have plenty of my own welding equipment, and go near it whenever I want. I lovingly fondle my Miller 4600 and long for the day when I can once more bolt it to the back of my deuce-anna-1/2 to go out and fix some busted forestry machine or create a custom-fabricated masterpiece to go on the front of a jacked-up Chevy.
Anyhow, you weren't here last summer, so I'll catch you up on some history that was big news around the Halbakery for about 7 minutes and has been the source of obscure inside jokes ever since: last May 27 I hit a Teleporting Deer* head-on whilst I was riding my Kawasaki KLR 650 (which was demolished in the crash) and was thrown 40 yards, bouncing off of the pavement at least twice before landing in a bog, resulting in a shattered left scapula, fracture of my left clavicle, three ribs, my L5 vertabra, and my left tibia, a moderate concussion, as well as complete disconnection of every tendon and ligament in my left ankle. After three surgeries, the most recent being 3 weeks ago and entailing the removal of a bone chip that was embedded in my upper sciatic nerve only 5mm from my spinal cord, I am in the final stages of recovery from these injuries. Hopefully, this will explain to you why I haven't done any welding work for the last year, and also why I spend so much time lurking on HB.
* aka Blink Deer or Cervus Displacia-- Alterother, May 16 2012 not wishing to seem hard-hearted, but how about the deer?
//I spend so much time lurking on HB.
I have such excuse, except it's much more fun than trying to work out what part of a Japanese text is <FONT FACE="MS Mincho, ＭＳ 明朝, monospace"> out of the other 100 or so possibles...-- not_morrison_rm, May 18 2012 We call motorcyclists either "temporary citizens" or "organ donors", depending upon the mood of the day.
Sorry, but I've no sympathy for people injured in motorcycle accidents. You knew better and did it anyway.-- UnaBubba, May 18 2012 //but I've no sympathy for people injured in motorcycle accidents//Not even the innocent bystanders, hit by cycle parts, or flying organ donors?Shame on you.-- AbsintheWithoutLeave, May 18 2012 If motorcycles were invented today they would be immediately banned, throughout the civilised world.-- UnaBubba, May 18 2012 // If motorcycles were invented today they would be immediately banned, throughout the civilised world.
Blah blah blah Royce Creasey blah blah Malcolm Newell blah..blah FF Kawasaki z1300..160mph..don't get wet blah crashed it..broke one finger blah Phasar blah blah Quasar..1970's..sure criticise the stupid traditional motorbike design which just won't die, but some of the other designs are quite survivable-- not_morrison_rm, May 18 2012 // throughout the civilised world //
Still be legal in Oz, then…-- 8th of 7, May 18 2012 I knew better and did it anyway. I'll do it again, too.
I wasn't looking for sympathy. You wondered why I wasn't welding, that's the answer. I gave you all the gory details not so you'd feel bad for me but because long experience with injurious calamity has shown me that many people will keep asking questions, so it's best just to tell the whole story at once. It's habitual for me at this point.
Plus, it gives you plenty of material for cracking jokes at my expense. Everyone else has been, I see no reason why you should miss out on the fun.
Around my part of the world, an Organ Donor is a motorcyclist sans helmet. I like 'temporary citizen', though. I'll have to remember that one.-- Alterother, May 18 2012 Now, if only this had been a giant seagull spitfire, with a mechanical gorilla attachment you could retire on the buns alone..-- not_morrison_rm, May 19 2012 Hah!-- skinflaps, May 19 2012 // giant seagull spitfire, with a mechanical gorilla attachment //
Giant custard-fuelled seagull Spitfire, flown by a mechanical gorilla (dressed as a pirate) playing a jam-filled banjo, and armed with precision guided beehives aimed using an orrery ...-- 8th of 7, May 19 2012 [nmrm], the deer didn't make it. I heard later that a Game Warden tracked her a short distance and put her out of her pain. Quite sad.-- Alterother, May 19 2012 I thought you would be all healed by now. Good grief. Sad situation all around.-- blissmiss, May 19 2012 I thought so too; I actually was, for a few weeks this winter, and I even got out for the best of the ski/snowboard season, but then this tiny bone chip found its way into my sciatic nerve and laid me out again. I'm probably going to have another surgery next week, but after that it will be over. The good news is that the recovery and PT from these micro-surgeries is very quick. I'll be out there making trouble again before the summer is out. Maybe I'll buy a used Spitfire and take up air racing.-- Alterother, May 19 2012 // the deer didn't make it. I heard later that a game warden tracked her a short distance and put her out of her pain. Quite sad. //
Poor Bambi …
<link>-- 8th of 7, May 19 2012 [8th], that link is great.
I'm sorry, all. I didn't mean to take up so much space with my personal stuff.
Again.-- Alterother, May 19 2012 If I do "make it into the digest," I'd rather it be with something HB-related. But I'll take that as the joke that it is.-- Alterother, May 19 2012 Thank you. Everyone here has been really supportive of me through this, and I appreciate it. All the jokes are great, especially since I always try to find the lighter side of misfortune in my life. I know I've said it before, but it's the real sense of community here that sometimes causes me to cross the line and treat it like a social site; the genuine well-wishes and sympathy I've received from so many HalfBakers are part of that.
Okay, I'm done now. Nobody say anything to set me off on this topic again. Let's talk about fuckin' airplanes or something.-- Alterother, May 19 2012 Airplanes-super large orifice I'd imagine.-- blissmiss, May 19 2012 Ba-dum Tishh!
That was pretty much inevitable.-- Alterother, May 19 2012 random, halfbakery