A hinged metal band to be worn like a belt, lined with thick squares on the outside and rubber cushioning on the inside, and with a ripcord where the buckle is. Each square is made of solid steel, and has five shallow holes drilled into it's face. One placed directly in the center and pointing directly away from the user, with the other four placed around it and aimed at a slight diagonal, but still away from the user. Each hole has a piece of lead buckshot and enough powder to make the buckshot lethal at 30 feet when fired. Pulling the ripcord ignites all the buckshot charges at once.
When surrounded by faceless mooks with outdated submachine guns in neon jumpers, instead of dropping you guns and being interrogated by their super-scientist boss, pull the cord and let a exploding ring of lead make minion-paste out of them.-- notmarkflynn, Oct 10 2011 Fire from the groin... http://youtu.be/jts0xxg7P8I [Klaatu, Oct 10 2011] Similar results http://www.youtube....watch?v=Z2Zvz1v7HigI imagine slinging that much lead would require equivilent force. [MikeD, Oct 10 2011] Sonic Claymore Sonic_20Claymore [MisterQED, Oct 11 2011] Halfbakery Poker Halfbakery_20Poker[21Quest] has the right idea... [normzone, Oct 12 2011] I like this.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 10 2011 Yes but the recoil sucks.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Oct 10 2011 //Yes but the recoil sucks.//
Blows, actually. I'm no explosives expert, but I think the detonation would kill you.
Wait a mintue... I AM an explosives expert, and the detonation will kill you.-- MikeD, Oct 10 2011 Why are the submachineguns in neon jumpers?-- neutrinos_shadow, Oct 10 2011 What [MikeD] said (all of it, including the bit about being an explosives expert).
// submachineguns in neon jumpers? //
Because they're outdated, i.e. middle aged, still live with their parents, have never had a girlfriend, and never will wearing the hideous neon jumpers (actually, cardigans) their mother knits for them.-- 8th of 7, Oct 10 2011 Thank you, [8th]. But from one expert to another; let’s not be presumptuous...
I'm all for strapping one of these contraptions to [21Quest] and giving this idea a fair shake before killing it in the crib.-- MikeD, Oct 10 2011 Your cautious, evidence-based approach does you great credit.
We'll knock him down, you strap the belt on ...-- 8th of 7, Oct 10 2011 Ah, yes, the old 'human claymore'. The only flaw is the excessive wear and tear on the human component.-- Alterother, Oct 10 2011 "Think of it as evolution in action."-- mouseposture, Oct 10 2011 What about a hat-device with a 360 degree field of fire? If the charges were set in a circle above your head, worn on top of some sort of helmet, they could all fire without exerting their force on the gooey center [human]. Warning: hearing protection required.-- DIYMatt, Oct 11 2011 Err, no. When the radial shockwaves reach the centre of the ring, they will then propagate normal to the plane, both up and down. Research on this phenomenon was a critical part of the Manhattan project.
As a way of making your brains squirt out through youur nose at high velocity, it would workk really well.-- 8th of 7, Oct 11 2011 If a rigid girdle were added to the design, would that help with the recoil problem, or would it just direct a nasty shockwave into the armpits?-- pertinax, Oct 11 2011 I know exactly what will improve this idea both in real world and here at the HB, custard. The belt buckle needs to ride on a couple of custard (non-Newtonian) infused layers of Kevlar to spread out the pressure wave. You also need to figure out how to keep the blast wave from sheering off your face, but I leave that in others hands. I personally don't like putting explosives so close to the parts of me I am trying to protect, so (-), but I sure many here will agree, this idea needs more custard.
If you actually want to face down hords of faceless mooks, wouldn't a better idea be something less deadly and more disable-y like a magnesium flash or how about a chain of small explosives that create a sound weapon? (Hmmm, off to add as separate idea) (Sonic Claymore- link) Either way, the idea needs more custard.-- MisterQED, Oct 11 2011 [Edited] to make it clearer that this isn't a suicide weapon. It's more like a 360 degree shotgun than a devastating explosive.
If you played Deus Ex: Human Revolution, the main character could get a weapon called the Typhoon which had an effect similar to this, firing ball bearings in a 360 degree arc from the main characters cybernetic prosthetics. I was trying to think of a low tech, semi-plausible way of doing the same thing that didn't require getting your arms replaced with robot ones.-- notmarkflynn, Oct 11 2011 //didn't require getting your arms replaced with robot ones// But wouldn't you be handicapping yourself compared to those people *with* robot arms?-- swimswim, Oct 11 2011 Not if I have a shotgun belt and he's standing roughly ten feet away from me and is at the same elevation!
Otherwise, yeah, robo arms guy has got me beat.-- notmarkflynn, Oct 11 2011 The major difference between a weapon featured in a video game and one in real life is that the designers of real life can't change reality to suit the hero's purposes.
When a shotgun shell is fired from a shotgun, the considerable recoil is, in the shooter's vernacular, 'soaked up' by the solid steel receiver, the stock (made from hardwood, metal, or hard plastic), and the shooter's shoulder, which is made mostly of bone, cartilage and muscle and is in fact one of the toughest parts of the human body. If a butt of the shotgun were placed firmly against the lower abdomen, that recoil force would be imparted to the internal organs, most of which have all the structural integrity of a Jello mold (as does the brain, as well). Now imagine taking away all the steel and hardwood that soaks up so much of that recoil and firing the round directly from some kind of belt-like appuratus (or alternatively, a very strange-looking and rather heavy hat), with only a thin metal plate between the destructive force of a shotgun blast and your soft 'n' tenders. Presto chango, your vital Jello bits have been converted to soup.
Meanwhile, your video game hero assumes his idle stance and waits patiently until the paramedics arrive and turn the game console off.-- Alterother, Oct 11 2011 Received wisdom is that, when employing explosives (rather than propellants), one of the crucial principles to observe is to be as far away as possible from it when it detonates.
This idea, since it disregards such a fundamental survival strategy, is not likely to find favour with anyone who has prior knowledge or experience of the use of explosives.-- 8th of 7, Oct 11 2011 //the considerable recoil is, in the shooter's vernacular, 'soaked up' by the solid steel receiver, the stock (made from hardwood, metal, or hard plastic), and the shooter's shoulder//
Just a point of inquiry, but is much of the recoil absorbed by anything except the shoulder? I didn't think so unless you are counting their resistance to inertia. I guess you could make a stock that does, but I didn't know many that do as it might affect accuracy. I have seen a rubber cushions at the back of the stock, but even those are usually pretty thin.-- MisterQED, Oct 11 2011 There is a bit of impulse soaked up by intertia, hence lighter weapons having more stout recoil when compared to heavier weapons of the same calibre, but the stock does much more transmitting than absorbing.
//this isn't a suicide weapon//
I disagree.-- MikeD, Oct 11 2011 [Edited] again, this time to get a little closer to what's in my head. I'm trying to think of how to design this so it's not lethal to the user. I'll freely admit I don't know a lot about explosives, and my knowledge of firearms is only marginally better.
In my head, since the steel band is rigid and each powder charge is as small as I think would be useful, it seems survivable. But that's, once again, in my head.
Can anyone run the numbers on this? How much force would be needed to drive a single piece of 00 buckshot 30 feet with lethal force? And bearing that in mind, how much force would cause internal organ damage?
Say the belt has 7 squares, each with five holes. That's 35 individual pieces of buckshot, all going off at once. According to the internet, most 00 shells contain ~8 pellets. Which means the belt would be roughly equivalent to having 4-5 shells going off at once.
Do I need fewer holes? Lighter shot? Smaller effective radius? Healthier recreational outlets?-- notmarkflynn, Oct 11 2011 Where is [dbmag9] when you need him (shines the nemesis signal on a cloud) ?
Question: Have you ever fired a 12 gage shotgun with one of those green-cased buckshot shells in it? Held to your shoulder?-- normzone, Oct 11 2011 // but the stock does much more transmitting than absorbing. //
True. 'Soaking up' recoil is a quick and dirty way of describing how effectively the frame of the firearm reduces 'felt recoil.' Heavier and more substantial frames 'slow' (again, an unscientific term) the transmission of the recoil to the shoulder, spreading out the transfer of energy over a slightly longer period of time than would a lighter or poorly-designed firearm.
I use unscientific and slang terms because I am a shooter with years of experience handling and firing everything from .17 caliber revolvers to, on one memorable day, a South African 20mm sniper rifle. As many of you know, I'm not a physicist or engineer. I don't know how to describe these things in scientific terms and would feel foolish trying. I thank all those who jump in on my behalf to explain what I'm trying to say.
I am not a firearms expert, I am just an avid hobbyist (and former competitor) who has fired tens of thousands of rounds from over a hundred different types of guns (maybe over two hundred). I like to take them apart and examine their function, compare different designs and talk with other enthusiasts, and make repairs and improvements to my own guns and those belonging to my friends. I have also built several custom rifles from hand- picked components, one of which won a Northeast Region NRA Hi-Power competition in the hands of a far more talented marksman than I. But I am not an expert. Seriously.
Long-winded, self-conscious, overly-defensive diatribe concludes here. As you were.-- Alterother, Oct 11 2011 // Do I need fewer holes? Lighter shot? Smaller effective radius? //
What you need is a much better knowledge of physics, metallurgy, ballistics, human physiology, explosives and propellants.
// Healthier recreational outlets ? //
Actually no, strangely you're doing just fine on that one ...-- 8th of 7, Oct 11 2011 Actually, now that I think about this idea semi-seriously instead of just rejecting it on the grounds that the original concept would be messily lethal to the user, I have this suggestion:
Buckshot is not necessary. In a street-fight scenario, intimidation is what often determines the victor (I know this from personal experience, so don't argue with me unless you, too, have been in a number of brawls). A small amount of birdshot propelled by a charge equivalent to that of a 9mm round would suffice. I've never been 'peppered', but I was once struck in the shoulder by a single steel pellet and it stung like hell. That pain, combined with the gawdawful bang of the charges going off, would IMNAAHO deter everyone but a really dedicated psychopath. Street toughs are like bears; sure, they could take on the biggest badass out there, but why waste the effort when there's easier prey to be found?-- Alterother, Oct 11 2011 //Do I need fewer holes? Lighter shot? Smaller effective radius? Healthier recreational outlets?//
The latter, IMHO. If you had a ring of very short shotgun barrels pointed outwards (each orientated exactly 180 degrees from it's opposite), all mounted to a continuous ring of steel plate, fired simultaneously, I could see this working. You could have multiple rows of barrels, too. The only limiting factors would be the yeild stress limit of the steel ring, and the deviation from *Simultaneous*.
I still say we should test it out on [21Q], first.-- MikeD, Oct 11 2011 No need for a //Long-winded, self-conscious, overly- defensive diatribe// as I was just wondering also. I actually am a Physicist or at least my degree says so, but there are a lot of things at work in firearms and I know only the barest basics. I know if you get really large (cannons, etc), then the barrels move to absorb some of the shock and I think that also happens in some small automatic pistols, but I thought it messed with accuracy.-- MisterQED, Oct 11 2011 // some small automatic pistols //
In all automatic pistols, actually, and I will refrain from smugly boring you death with an explanation of how it's not the barrel that moves but a different part, and it's not to reduce recoil but actually to harness the recoil to power the mechanism that loads the next round into the chamber, which is what makes the pistol (semi-) automatic. You've got the basics down, clearly. Since you're an actual physicist, you could probably spend an afternoon reading about guns and then come back here and take me to school.-- Alterother, Oct 11 2011 //Question: Have you ever fired a...//
I have only fired 9mm rifle (Hi Point? Can't remember. Basically no kick.) and a Mosin Nagant. The Nagant punched you in the shoulder like a bastard, and to top things off had a nice steel butt plate.
//would IMNAAHO deter everyone but a really dedicated psychopath//
Granted, but the spirit of this invention is that it makes mincemeat out of your enemies. I suppose a functional version with low lethality is better than an incredibly unsafe version that will turn your internal organs to goo.
Also, yeah, where is DBmag? This is like my third idea since I came back, and he's nowhere around. I'm a bit worried.-- notmarkflynn, Oct 11 2011 If your belt is a rigid ring, and you simultaneously fire diametrically opposed pairs, it should be recoilless.
If your belt is an oversized rigid ring, and the holes are somewhat angled, you've invented the Hula Hoop from Hell.-- lurch, Oct 11 2011 Well, the Mosin Nagant feels about like the shotgun would. We could probably discern the difference if we had them to test - You bring the Mosin, I'll lbring the 12 gage and the beer.
[Alterother]'s suggestion on bird shot sounded valid - then again, he hunts deer with a motorcycle. I wonder how the season is regulated for that. Probably any time it's warm and dry.-- normzone, Oct 11 2011 // I will refrain from smugly boring you death //
Is this some sort of major policy revision ?
// deviation from *Simultaneous* // // it should be recoilless //
"should be". Oooh, love the way you sneaked in that little ambiguity.
// I still say we should test it out on [21Q], first //
And we still agree with you.
// You and what collective? I phoned the Borg's contact number //
Of course we didn't admit to our existance. Even the Borg have Black Projects ...-- 8th of 7, Oct 11 2011 hmm...
Not that I'm the type of person to engage in designing weaponry of course, but...
mounted tangentially they won't squeeze your innards out of all your orifices.-- FlyingToaster, Oct 11 2011 //if your belt is a rigid ring// Only works if the detonations are perfectly symmetrical. Otherwise, you get a force couple, the rigid ring rotates around some axis that isn't vertical, and cuts you in three.-- mouseposture, Oct 11 2011 I thought the holographic cat was a good one.-- FlyingToaster, Oct 11 2011 I'm not one to step into the middle of an online gun fight, but I'm a little disappointed that the weapons being textually waved around aren't as halfbaked as the main post. Lets have a little less M82 .50 's and a little more super-soakers full of gasoline around here.-- rcarty, Oct 11 2011 I think you mean dual automatic belt-fed wrist-mounted crossbows with self-igniting phosphorus bolts, backed up by some of the earlier-mentioned custard armor.-- notmarkflynn, Oct 12 2011 I checked my halfbakery arsenal and apparently I have a gun that shoots overcharged batteries. You got anything that can stop acid?-- rcarty, Oct 12 2011 Ooh, halfbakery arsenal. Now there's an idea to post. I've got a fire extinguisher attached to a pistol if you check my ideas.
Ahh, sounds kind of like a game of halfbakery poker.-- normzone, Oct 12 2011 //stop acid ?// I got EMP ammunition that could wreak havoc on the charging system... though I'd probably send an "Abdominal Snowman" over first to negotiate.-- FlyingToaster, Oct 12 2011 <sets exploding throwing stars on the ground, backs away slowly>-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Oct 12 2011 Normzone might have something there with a halfbakery arsenal game idea. If it were a cardgame as he suggests then it could be a sort of bluff calling game, at least in part. The idea being that players have cards featuring fictitious inventions that they claim to own and use to counteract opponents inventions. However this will be truly in the spirit of the halfbakery because players can make up and claim to own useful inventions on the spot. For example if normzone draws his pistol fire extinguisher I can claim to have an extinguisher extinguisher which would be an obvious trump card. If he decides to use his card he wins the made up invention and can craft a shoddy hand drawn card for later use. If he had a pistol extinguisher and I had what I claimed I get his. If both were bluffs then the play continues risking that the inventions will be forgotten. Basically play continues like that as arsenals grow and players strategize to make cards to win back their stolen ideas, and their opponents.
Standard halfbakery rules apply including WIBNI WWTCTI.. MFD etc. Typed on mobile device-- rcarty, Oct 12 2011 //// some small automatic pistols //
In all automatic pistols, actually, and I will refrain from smugly boring you death with an explanation of how it's not the barrel that moves but a different part, and it's not to reduce recoil but actually to harness the recoil to power the mechanism that loads the next round into the chamber, which is what makes the pistol (semi-) automatic //
We..ll not all auto pistols. You're forgetting the gas operated and blowback operated ones. Perhaps the most familiar to you would be the IMI desert eagle, which is gas operated. Also, nearly any .22 you see will be blowback operated - you can tell because the barrel is fixed to the breech whereas short recoil tilting barrel (SRTB - easily 90% of centrefire auto pistols), the barrel is not fixed. The gas operated desert eagle is a nightmare of complexity in comparison, and should be left to the would-be gang bangers.
Even more also - the barrel in a SRTB auto pistol does move - but as it moves it tilts on a ramp (unlocking it from the slide) and then it stops. It doesn't move far, but it does move. Because the barrel is initially locked to the slide at the beginning of it's "short recoil", it imparts momentum to the slide, which continues back and performs the eject-load-battery cycle.
... You might consider yourself smugly bored to death at this point, but I'm both engineer and firearms enthusiast, and I find autoloading mechanisms to be a fascinating mix of zen-trickery and agricultural bodgery.-- Custardguts, Oct 12 2011 <sigh>
Have none of you heard of the Davis Gun ? Ever ? Anyone ?
We are saddened and depressed by your lack of insight. We have been waiting for someone - anyone - to pose the obvious solution.
Well ?
Right.
The way to achieve the desired effect with the minimum of damage to the user is to employ recoilless projectile dischargers.
This would be simply a metal tube with and electrically-initiated propellant charge in the centre sandwiched between two packages of buckshot, one at each end.
When the charge is fired, each package is discharged in opposite directions. There is no recoil as such, if the projectile masses are balanced.
Eight of these units attached around the circumference of a belt will meet the specification for a broad-area short range AP weapon.
The noise when firing will be VERY loud and there will be significant muzzle blast.
Reloading will be slow and may not be practicable in the field. Use of lightweight alloys could be combined to make this a single-use device. The loaded weight will then largely be the mass of the projectiles.
Any questions ?-- 8th of 7, Oct 12 2011 // I find autoloading mechanisms to be a fascinating mix of zen-trickery //
As do I, including often using the word 'zen' to describe the pleasure of long range shooting.
I left out the variants (such as the Desert Eagle and the <drool> Five-seveN) under the 'not-boring-to-death' clause, though I'm sure there are many s-a handguns that I'm not familiar with and don't fall under my loose description. I know what I shoot. I never fire a gun without taking it apart (and, of course, re-assembling it) first, because I'm as enthralled by the worky-bits as I am by the function.-- Alterother, Oct 12 2011 [21], you really have a Barrett? I don't mean to insult you at all, but I can't help but be a little skeptical... And if you do, envious. I've had the pleasure (and pain) of firing them more than once, but have nowhere/no reason to use one up here in the mountains and there are no 1000yd comps north of NY. Still, I paid less for my erstwhile motorcycle (hell, less for my Duece _or_ my Jeep, either) than the cost of a Barrett.-- Alterother, Oct 12 2011 We're using our half-baked ideas as weapons? Then I will throw Danger Bunnies at you from the saddle of my Rocket Bear, with a trusty Ice Cream Gun at my hip.
And then the Weaponized Solar Flare comes from outer space, killing each and every one of us as the surface of the earth is melted by plasma.-- notmarkflynn, Oct 12 2011 Has that already been posted? Hang on, I know I've got a bun around here somewhere...-- Alterother, Oct 12 2011 I've seen Barret-like things, probably some sort of analog, sitting on the counter in the gun shops of Arizona, $1,000 USD.-- normzone, Oct 12 2011 There are a lot of single-shot bolt-action .50s that bear suspiciously close resemblance to Barretts, and I've fired some of them, too. Lemme tell ya, there ain't nothin' like the real thing.-- Alterother, Oct 12 2011 Never shot none of them: I like my upper body the way it is thanks. OTOH a standard nato cratering charge beats anything short of bombs/missiles (and of course nuclear mortars).-- FlyingToaster, Oct 12 2011 Yeah... Even a Barrett, gentlest of the 'big fifties', takes a good-sized chunk out of your shoulder. One of the best civilian thousand-yard shooters I've ever seen was a very petite woman, though. We all stood around and reminded ourselves that we were secure in our masculinity when she was up to shoot.-- Alterother, Oct 12 2011 //a standard nato cratering charge beats anything short of bombs/missiles//
I'd rather use a bangalore torpedo.-- MikeD, Oct 13 2011 I'm sad for these faceless mooks. Their mothers are waiting for them at home, drip-drying their spare neon jumpers. Just talk to the super-scientist. He might have some interesting ideas.-- pertinax, Oct 14 2011 Touché.-- Alterother, Oct 14 2011 // bangalore torpedo //
Catenax. Definitely one of our better ideas.-- 8th of 7, Oct 14 2011 You need to read the Evil Overlord guide again, [21Q]. Explaining the method of imminent demise to the Hero in great technical detail is, we're afraid, a really classic Evil Overlord mistake, merely allowing them (the Hero) to work out the one tiny flaw that will allwo them to escape (at the very last second, of course).
Good strutting though, nice pointy moustache, like the robes, maybe a bit more practice on the "MUHWHAHAHAHAHA !" wouldn't go amiss, though ? Oh, and a word to your designer. Those uniforms for your minions look terribly derivative, half Nazi, half Imperial Stormtrooper ? You need something fresher, more with it, a contemporaray look - or soething really radical, like gold lycra jockstraps with orstrich plumes.
Just a suggestion.-- 8th of 7, Oct 15 2011 No, no, I ordered the _ silver_ lycra with _peacock_ plumes. What do you take me for, a Landsncheckt (sp?)?! And who the hell got my Buzz Rickson's authentic Replica Imperial Stormtrooper greaves?-- Alterother, Oct 15 2011 Ahhh .... now we understand why [MB]'s groundsmen looked so odd. Those greaves just look so ... wrong.
And those breastplates, with those boots ? Puh - leasee ....
// you didn't compliment my well-oiled goatee... you cut me to the quick! //
Sorry. We didn't like to mention it ... what you do with your goat in private is none of our business. We didn't want to bring it up in a public forum.
The earring is a nice touch, though. Is that a real scar on your cheek, or just makeup ? Had to tell, it's very convincing.
If you would like a more contemporary and innovative design for your Audience Chamber, let us know. It's nice, yes, but, well, a bit "samey" ? The cracks in the floor for the trapdoor to cast the Hero into the Pit of Doom are a bit obvious to be honest, and there's not really enough width for a Final One To One Duel. A table to jump on and a chandelier to swing from would just add so much to the ambience.
But that piranha pool is a real beaut, who did that for you ? Was it expensive ? Do the gilded dragon statues squirt liquid fire when you twist your signet ring, or are they controled from the arm of the throne ? Either way, quality. Jim Kirk would love it.
Also, where do you chain up the Heroine - that's like a concealed fitting behind a sliding panel, right ?-- 8th of 7, Oct 15 2011 And all this from a man who's uncomfortable with Kegels...-- Alterother, Oct 15 2011 random, halfbakery