The Honda Insight and other electric hybrids are soon to emerge. They are primarily aimed at increased fuel economy, however, there is an underlying need to provide extra performance from the electric part of the design. I think of the Honda implementation as an "electronic supercharger"...it provides a boost of about 12Hp (check that)...but this is a signficant boost in a small/lightweight car. One of the other ideas was to use compressed air as a supercharger...and I endorce that too. Perhaps the scaling of the electric to real performance levels is not that difficult. The Honda has 120 D cell size Nickel Metal Hydrids in a surprisingly small battery package. Imagine that scaled up to 5 times it's size. This provides a real "pure power" boost of perhaps 50 or more hp. Couple that to a bolt on electric motor.....in line to the drive shaft (yes, the concept is rather exclusive to rear wheel drive vehicles, unless you add something direct to the rear wheels)....and you might have something. Aftermarket performance add-ons to existing engines are very risky in terms of blowing the engine and also very expensive. The concept of the add-on electric supercharge has no impact on baseline reliability. If it sold for $2000 and added 50 hp....I bet many people would buy it.

It just seems like the idea of electric has been too engrained with mileage gain and not adapted for performance gain.

We have seen an electric implementation on a Hummer which outperforms the standard by 2 to 1.
-- Bob Wade, May 09 2002

(?) Sinclair Zeta http://lurch.ucd.ie...t_Sinclair/zeta.htm
Electric performance supercharger add-on for pedal cycles? [pottedstu, May 09 2002, last modified Oct 21 2004]

(?) Toyota going all-hybrid by 2012 http://www.auto.com...wird25_20021025.htm
[krelnik, Oct 04 2004, last modified Oct 21 2004]

(?) "Electrocharger" http://www.sigmaaut.../electrocharger.php
A company doing almost exactly this [jimmy_ward, Mar 18 2005]

Like the electric motor add-ons you get for bicycles that drive the wheels directly, such as the Sinclair Zeta? (See link.) Except for motor cars, obviously.
-- pottedstu, May 09 2002


Because electric motors produce maximum torque at zero rpm the 'off the line' performance of this could be very pleasing and perhaps startling. If you mashed the accelerator from a stop, the electric motor would turn on at the same time and then reduce power as the engine took over, 'handing off' back to the primary powerplant.

(Can anything else produce max torque at zero rpm? Steam engine?)
-- bristolz, May 09 2002


//Can anything else produce max torque at zero rpm?//
Childbirth
-- thumbwax, May 09 2002


Hehe.
-- bristolz, May 09 2002


Honda. excuse me while I spit. thank you.
-- po, May 09 2002


Bristolz, good point on the torque. I know the high tech implementations, like the insight would have optimized the storage of energy, through braking and also at cruising speed. A low tech implementation might require one to "sacrifice" performance during the charging cycle....much like when you have your air on....you get drag and less performance......but 15 minutes later pull up to a light and let er go. Of course the other possibility is to leave the house fully charged for battle. I see this as all sorts of fun on the street, and full of do-it-yourself possibilities once you have the basic electric motor of choice integrated into your drivetrain.
-- Bob Wade, May 09 2002


A company here in town built an electric car on a porsche platform and it goes over 140 mph, and has a range of over 150 miles, it isn't hybrid, but the possibilities are there, it smokes the tires in 4th gear.
-- youngsmith, Oct 22 2002


How about putting the electric drive on the rear axle of a front-wheel drive car? The original powerplant and drivetrain could be left intact, just install a live axle under the rear, with an electric motor bolted onto the input coupling on the diff. The batteries and the electronics could be stuffed into the trunk, the motor could be used to recover electric charge while running on the gas engine, then activated when a litle boost is required.
-- whlanteigne, Nov 01 2002


Just the other day, Toyota announced that their entire product line will be gas/electric hybrid within 10 years.
-- krelnik, Nov 01 2002


No need to replace the rear axle, electric motors could replace the rear hubs of a front wheel drive car.
-- rsj9, Nov 01 2002


I've been looking into this idea, independently, with an eye to making a hybrid 4dx4 pickup of my own. Here's what I've found out; The motors, controllers and etc. that people use to build electric cars seem to be just the thing. The motors are about 50 horsepower(from advancedc- but any motor COULD be used, even 100 hp waterproof motors used in septic systems). The computer controllers, gauges, kill switches etc can all be purchased from several sources, all easily found by internet searches. Books giving step-by-step instructions on how to build electric cars are readily available. But the real cream here is how easily the two systems work together. No integration is neccessary. Just hook a motor up to your driveline and put a throttle control at your fingertips and juice up the motor at whim. The power sent to your motor will speed your vehicle up, to the tune of however much horsepower you have available in your motor. The only sticking point is gearing down the motor. The electric car guys use the vehicles existing transmission. This would be impractical as an aftermarket or home-grown mod. The motor needs about a 10:1 reduction to be effective. My solution is to put in a 4.88:1 differential(stock option for my truck) and drive the diff. through a chain drive giving another 3:1 reduction( the guys down at the motorcycle shop say this is can be done using off-the-shelf sprockets and chains). Now, different vehicles, especially front-wheel drive, would need different solutions. But any rear-wheel drive could do some version of this and could even leave the rear driveshaft on. Or the rear driveshaft could be removed(if a front driveshaft was also used, I.E: all-wheel drive or 4-wheel drive) to give the vehicle the option of being completely electric for short drives or emergencies or emission compliance. The amount of juice available to the motor would depend on the size of your battery pack and whether you were willing to plug your vehicle in at night or if you wanted to charge it just using regenerative braking.
-- slowertraffic, Jul 09 2003


Slowertraffic,

Your idea is good, especial for a 4x4, but with a big gear reduction as you've described, you run firmly into a problem.

The maximum RPM of your electric motor is limited. The bigger reduction of your gear ratio, the sooner you'll hit your maximum RPM. While you will gain impressive results at low speeds, you won't go very fast with this set up.

I'd reccomend a higer torque motor and a lower gear reduction, to give a better range of RPM. Even so, without being able to shift gears, you will have firm limits on top speed.
-- ShadowLord, Oct 25 2003


looking for submersible DC motors. Any clues?
-- sazclpl, Feb 12 2004


[sazclpl ] You can find hundreds of responses to your question by going to Google.com (or any competent search engine) and merely typing "submersible DC motor" into the search field. I looked; the answers are there. The halfbakery is not yet a public reference site, per se.
-- jurist, Feb 12 2004


Thanks Jurist. I was actually waiting to hear from someone who's already bought such motors and used them.
-- sazclpl, Feb 12 2004


In that case,[sazclpl], you picked the wrong thread. Surely you can find something both more current and more appropos amongst the archives here. In any case, the halfbakery isn't intended to be a referral site. Try again.
-- jurist, Feb 12 2004


I am looking for a 100% waterproof motor to be used in an electric vehicle I want to build. Waterproof hub motors would be even better. Can someone help?
-- sazclpl, Feb 16 2004


http://www.thomasregisterdirectory.com/motors/waterproof_motors_0016668_1.html
-- jurist, Feb 16 2004


thanks jurist
-- sazclpl, Feb 19 2004


Actually I thought about an electric supercharger too. Since there is no parasitic drag you can get more power out of your engine without overstressing it than with a mechanical supercharger or even a turbocharger. In addition you can generate a devil terrifying low end torque. I think this concept makes especially sense in a lightweight sportscar. Instead of batteries you could use capacitors, since they don't require that much weight. An electric supercharger basically allows you to lever the actual power of your electric motor. So if you use a 30 HP electric motor you might generate an extra 120HP on your combustion engine. Imagine the Toyota Prius would use its 70 HP electric motor to supercharge its own little gasoline engine (you'd end up with a real 'vette-cruncher!)

An electric supercharger is actually buyable: http://www.boosthead.com/home.php If you install a powerful alternator and feed your extra 'boost-batteries' or capacitors only when you hit the break you could actually claim to own a hybrid. Or if you stick a solar panel on your trunk to charge your batteries you could claim to own the first solar powered supercharger. Who could possibly beat this?
-- Globi, Jun 08 2004


An electric supercharger forces extra air into the engine, which in turn draws more fuel and you effectively end up with a "lag-free" turbocharger - but the driving torque is still ALL coming from the engine combusting fuel. It may prove to increase the efficiency of the combustion cycle but it is generally marketed as a performance enhancer. There are several brands.

The suggestion here is a real hybrid drive system, in that under load the engine is "helped" by an electric motor, so that under power, not all of the torque is coming from the combustion engine. Therefore, a car that is very inefficient under acceleration but very efficient while cruising would benefit from this set-up: the previously inefficient cycle would be helped by boosting the engine when accelerating, while only a small amount of energy would be sacrificed during the already-efficient cycle (i.e. cruising). A car that is engineered to be as efficient as possible under both acceleration AND cruising (eg Toyota Prius, or basically any of the common rail diesel cars from Europe) will see negligible gain from this system.

In other words, the gain is by way of reducing inefficiency - the more inefficient the system, the more can be "gained"!

I stumbled across this site, a company that is basically doing exactly this. The link is above ("electrocharger"). And they do use capacitors instead of batteries. I emailed them but they don't have any more information.

I would like to bolt their system to an older diesel motor, which is very strong at cruising speeds, but lacks efficiency and power under acceleration. Since the diesel engine is turbocharged, an electric supercharger would be useful as well (to combat lag problems). I'm hoping to be able to claim to have the first turbocharged, supercharged, hybrid electric diesel passenger car in the world.
-- jimmy_ward, Mar 18 2005


Will you stop spamming our annotes already dude? you already spammed 4 ideas.
-- acurafan07, Jun 29 2007



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