People don't like history for one reason: powdered wigs. That and subjects that pose like the one shown in the first link.
I know stories are often lifted from history and retold in modern settings but this is a bit different. These are dramatized documentaries that simply remove the distracting, un- important time specific elements from the story and put them in a more relatable modern atmosphere.
The title of the episode would be the name of the historical figure being dramatized and modernized. "Voltaire", "Galileo", "Da Vinci" etc. Yes, it would be challenging to tell Da Vinci's story with modern technology so this would take a little bit of creativity but it could be done.
It's the stories of some of these figures from history that are timeless. Isolate them, focus on them. Besides, don't we study history to apply the lessons to our own times?
Lose the goofy wigs and puffy pants and get to the point.-- doctorremulac3, Nov 29 2019 Replace this... https://en.wikipedi...Voltaire-Baquoy.gif [doctorremulac3, Nov 29 2019] ...with this. https://images.app....l/xRRb1ubX2AKVHc5n9 [doctorremulac3, Nov 29 2019] The Wig Interpretation https://www.histori...retation-of-historyand Butterfield [pertinax, Nov 29 2019] Stupid Deaths https://www.youtube...watch?v=LlIe1Ixtgo0learn about history / develop a taste for the blackly comic [calum, Nov 29 2019] Sex up history sex_20up_20history [Voice, Dec 01 2019] A hair-brained scheme indeed ... [+]-- 8th of 7, Nov 29 2019 Some people *do* like history, and those who don't, don't because it makes them think outside the environment they're familiar with. Showing history without its strangeness is like showing physics without the maths; you may create a brief entertainment, but you will be promoting the opposite of understanding.
As Herbert Butterfield wrote*, 'The central question of history is "What the fuck were they thinking?"' (See link.)
You have no chance of answering this if you think the only difference between then and now was wigs.
*or rather, as he would have written if he had lived a hundred years later and had a completely different personality.-- pertinax, Nov 29 2019 //You have no chance of answering this if you think the only difference between then and now was wigs.//
Respectfully, I think if somebody thinks wigs have anything to do with history they have no chance of understanding the main points of the stories.-- doctorremulac3, Nov 29 2019 those clever people would just look stuff up on google.
not Da Vinci, he was a genius. don't you think that wigs are part of the history?-- po, Nov 29 2019 //don't you think that wigs are part of the history?//
Well, just as much as shoes and belts but I think they aren't the interesting part of the story.-- doctorremulac3, Nov 29 2019 You know, I'll take this a step further.
A cartoon version based in school where these historical figures are re-created in a setting that kids can relate to. That might be the better way to approach this.
And nobody, I mean NOBODY can say kids are into history. I know, I went to school for a few years and saw that it's taught in this fashion:
"In (some year) a group of (some people) did (some stuff) in response to (some other stuff that some other people did) that resulted in (a piece of paper) that led to some other crap that led to a bunch of people killing the first group. Now class, can anybody tell me what year that piece of paper was nailed to the forehead of (some person)??? Anybody? The year this happened.. anybody at all? I'll give you a hint, it was titled the (some weird Frenchy sounding thing) or Du vasquat le monaje que fate'. The du vasquat le monage que fate' was nailed to what forehead? Anybody? Anybody at all? Ok, that's enough for today's lesson."
As far as removing the wig, it will keep kids from seeing a picture of Voltaire and saying "Who's this douchbag? And what's with the goofy pantaloons?".-- doctorremulac3, Nov 29 2019 The BBC children's television programme - and the book series from whence it came - called Horrible Histories are very popular with kids in the UK because, although they keep the wigs and the costumes and so on, they tell the stories and impart the facts in an engaging (usually funny) way. It has a segment called "Stupid deaths" which is *chef's kiss*.-- calum, Nov 29 2019 That's absolutely brilliant.
See? History can be entertaining, not just a list of zero context meaningless events and dates.
The guy playing death is my hero. Philosopher and academic = work shy layabout.
Plus the way he patiently waits for the point of the story while fighting back his clear disdain for the story teller.
Might be one of my favorite fictional characters of all time.-- doctorremulac3, Nov 29 2019 "fictional" ?
Death is well known to be an ANTHROPOMORPHIC PERSONIFICATION, as he describes himself in Terry Pratchett's works.-- 8th of 7, Nov 29 2019 There's nothing //timeless// about the second photo linked.-- pocmloc, Nov 29 2019 Huh?-- doctorremulac3, Nov 29 2019 Its very late-twenty-teens.-- pocmloc, Nov 29 2019 The mere mention of hair brings Trump to mind. Just be glad those historical figures in whigs didn't have hair-dont's like The Donald. Be very glad indeed.-- blissmiss, Nov 30 2019 // Showing history without its strangeness is like showing physics without the maths; you may create a brief entertainment, but you will be promoting the opposite of understanding.//
I couldn't possibly agree less. There are many vitally important lessons in history that are extremely relatable and relevant regardless of the immediate social contexts. The hubris of an number of kings, the rebellions of peoples, slavery in its ancient contexts, the discovery of new metals and how it changed societies... Whether they were wearing puffy collars or monks robes is completely irrelevant to the important parts of these stories. And so is whether the metal was copper, bronze, or germanium.-- Voice, Dec 01 2019 // many vitally important lessons in history //
Actually, just one; "Never trust the french".-- 8th of 7, Dec 01 2019 Well put V.
(and 8)-- doctorremulac3, Dec 01 2019 ... but hubris, to take one example, is not invariant over time and, though continual, is not continuous. To suppose that cultural change is purely a function of material change, and never the other way around, is one of the errors of Marxism, [doc], so I'm a little surprised to see you and [Voice] falling into it.-- pertinax, Dec 01 2019 Well, I think you might be overthinking this a bit.
Stories get retold with changes in characters, situations, timeframes all the time. This is nothing more than a costume and set change. Romeo and Juliet was probably the inspiration behind West Side Story for instance. The didn't have the gal stab herself because they wanted to get credit for writing something new, but I'm sure West Side Story was a progeny of Romeo and Juliet.
The thing that's intriquing about the example I used, Voltaire, isn't his dress, the food he ate or the specific groups he interacted with, it was the original thinking he applied to the challenges of his time. That original thinking can be clearly illustrated with different clothing, a different setting in a different era. He doesn't have to be dealing with the church of his time with his writings, it could be a modern church with the same issues. In fact, lifting the main facts from one story and putting them in another might help to clarify them.
This is so common in story telling that I need to point out again, the main thing this would do is tell the history without the un-important clothing and settings of the time.
In fact, if done well, a person seeing the story of Capernicus who never heard of the actual astronomer would be able to recount the trials, tribulations and victories he went through and probably relate to them more because they're put in a setting familiar to the viewer.
I think there could be some merit to that.-- doctorremulac3, Dec 01 2019 ^ The song remains the same.
//Showing history without its strangeness is like showing physics without the maths; you may create a brief entertainment, but you will be promoting the opposite of understanding.//
I also totally disagree. Knowledge itself should be taught in whatever form an individual mind learns.Yes.But without the weirdness involved you've painted an antiseptic picture or unattainable ideal that does not exist.Those ancient folks went through the same shit our teens are dealing with, and the truth itself has been actively un-written by those who can not do.The un-known is fearful. "They" attack what they fear.
"They"... need not stay "they", but can become "us".
Many hands.Short work.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Dec 01 2019 //To suppose that cultural change is purely a function of material change, and never the other way around, is one of the errors//
I can see how it's an error.
//of Marxism//
so irrelevant to the argument it's not even wrong.
My point is that which precise technology was in play at the time doesn't change the lessons we can learn, except as relates to that specific technology. The fall of Sparta is interesting not because of the intricacies of and advancements in phalanx combat or the kind of sandals they wore. (unless you're a military historian or trying to wring every last possible lesson out of it, in which case you care about every detail regardless) It's most useful as a study in how military power can be over-emphasized to its own detriment. That second lesson is useful to this day, as are many other possible lessons from that series of events.
Lessons directly related to the fashions of the day, or the food, or the language are interesting and useful for their purposes, but the more intense your focus on any one aspect the more distant you get from the lessons that are the most useful.-- Voice, Dec 01 2019 //Those ancient folks went through the same shit our teens are dealing with//
Nope. Substantially different shit.
I know many people will find this difficult to believe, but the concept of "teenager" didn't really exist before the twentieth century and, even in the twentieth century, there were some people old enough to remember when it wasn't a thing.
Somewhere on YouTube, there's a video of Michael Parkinson making this point in one of his interviews of celebrities.
Also, celebrities weren't a thing before the twentieth century either, and some of the crassest popularisations of history I've seen have been where people narrated as if they were. For details on this, see Clive James on "Twentieth Century Fame".-- pertinax, Dec 01 2019 //Nope. Substantially different shit.//
Okay... so some radically new shit too, but what I meant is all of the mental issues dealt with today were experienced by others throughout history they just hadn't been named yet.
Things like autism, anxiety, tourettes, aspergers, etc. etc.
That kids were considered adult at much younger ages back then doesn't detract from the fact that our minds themselves haven't changed a whole lot other than learned behavior. If you went back in time, scooped up one of those kids at birth and raised them modern I doubt that they would differ much from modern teens.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Dec 01 2019 Regrettably, the manufacturers have done little or nothing to upgrade the Mk. I Human recently. Frequent complaints have been unavailing; indeed, not only are their no upgrades, but no product documentation or spare parts either. Vociferous complaints are either ignored, or the suppliers have gone out of business, or "That model is no longer produced and support has been discontinued. Thankyou for your enquiry".
Shabby, we call it.-- 8th of 7, Dec 01 2019 Are you kidding?? There are two girls in China who have been genetically modified. There are many companies openly working on direct brain augmentation. The US military (along with other militaries) has augmented soldiers explicitly in its long-term plans. Wearables are more popular than ever.
I know we're not up to the standards of the Collective yet, but at this rate we'll BE a collective by 2381-- Voice, Dec 02 2019 Why wait? Today's Cyber Monday... come on, you know you want it...-- 8th of 7, Dec 02 2019 I think once we get over the whole "oh no, we mustn't tinker" idea, things will progress quite quickly. We already have a good idea of which genetic variants offer protection against Alzheimer's, heart disease and a host of other things - and these are all existing variants that play nicely with the rest of the genome.
So, the first widely-available upgrades will be based on the "best" naturally-occurring alleles. Designing new firmware is a harder call.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 02 2019 Like any science, it can take us in good or bad directions. I think the whole fear of genetically lab enhanced people comes from the question "Will they be nice to the rest of us?".
If all of them have 200 IQs, are better looking than any off-the-shelf human supermodel and on top of that can destroy us in any physical endeavor, well, when we go to them for a job interview would they just look at us and say "We've got rubber doorstops now, we don't need a "human" to do it."
And I bet they'd use air-quotes when referring to us as "hu"-"mans". I hate these bastards already! Where's my pitchfork and torch? I'm pissed!-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 Yeah, except not.
For instance, you probably have an elderly relative who has kept their mental faculties into their 80s or 90s. Had the genetic lottery turned out different, you could have inherited those alleles and kept all your marbles to the end. Or maybe great uncle Joe chain-smoked unfiltered cigarettes from the age of 12, and died from being hit by a bus whilst running a marathon at the age of 83. You could be him*.
Alternatively, there's your cousin Mikey who never smoked but still died of lung cancer at 48; and your aunt Joan who suffered from early-onset Alzheimers from the age of 52. Maybe you'd like to be a little less like them?
Serious enhancements will take a good few decades to become available, because right now we know squat about how to make them. But, in the meantime, wouldn't you like to be able to ditch the worst gene variants that are swimming in your gene pool, and maybe acquire a few of the best traits of your ancestors?
(*I'm pretty sure [8th] can drive a bus.)-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 03 2019 We can. Right over you, Laughing Boy...
// "Will they be nice to the rest of us?". //
No. Any more easy questions ?
// And I bet they'd use air-quotes when referring to us as "hu"-"mans". I hate these bastards already! Where's my pitchfork and torch? //
Oh dear ... no, it's flaming torch OR agricultural implement. Why do they always get it wrong. Look, this is how it works. You gather a mob of mouth-breathing dolts, and separate out the slightly less stupid ones. Tyo these, you issue the torches, with instructions to (a) ony light one* at a time, and (b) light another when the first one is about to burn out. The rest get a pitchfork, scythe, rake, hoe or billhook. These share the common property that they require the use of both hands for proper operation, particularly as a weapon.
Then, and only then, do you climb on to a convenient** table, strike a suitably dramatic pose, and (making sure you are pointing in the right direction) declaim "What are we wating for, friends? To the {Castle/Manor/Smuggler's Cave/Docks/Abbey}*** !"
If you've done it right, they'll all rush off shouting "Rhubarb ! Rhubarb! " to attack the designated target, and you can sit and have a quiet pint and then stroll along later (when most of the hard work and rushing about has been done, and the villain has been cornered) for the denoument and generally All Living Happily Ever After.
// I'm pissed! //
We presume you mean that in the U.S. sense of "I'm a trifle miffed, old boy".
*The intellectual ones can usually count up to one.
** Convenient, not convent. It's not that sort of movie (unfortunately).
***Delete where not applicable.-- 8th of 7, Dec 03 2019 Well Max, we're arguing about whether fire can heat a house or burn it down.
I'm all for research and application of this science of course. I also understand that it's a branch of medicine that could change the lives of countess millions for the better.
I also understand that there's no real impediment to the science fiction "super man" that might have some issues too. Are supermen good? Well, OK I guess. Will they keep us as pets? Will they decide the dummies who made them are polluting the environment too much to keep alive?
That's the question: will they be nice? If so, why?
I'm an off the shelf model, so I have no clue.
But know what? THEY probably do. (taps forehead)
If I were forced to guess, like strapped to one of these horrible replicant's brain scan tables and forced to talk, I'd say "There seems to be a trend to be nicer if you're smarter, empathy seems to correlate with higher IQ GENERALLY but that's the natural progression of things." But what if somebody decides to make some super IQ / mega high testosterone level hybrid? Like half jock / half math nerd? Not even a little scared of that?
He'd walk up to some latter day Einstein's desk, laugh at his comparatively weak scientific paper and give him a wedgie.-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 Well, yes. At some point (very soon, in the great scheme of things) humans will become very, very different from what we are now - we're talking several million years of evolution in a few centuries, to begin with. Then things will start to really take off.
However, it's safe to say that 99.9% of humans will be base models for the next few decades at least; and the 0.1% will just be ordinary people who are as healthy as the healthiest people around today.
One of my company's long-term goals is "prophylactic genome editing" - making edits to prevent disease rather than to treat it. I figure the odds of this being implemented within my lifetime are about 20%, even if the tech works out OK. For now, I can make you fluorescent green if you really want.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 03 2019 // But what if somebody decides to make some super IQ / mega high testosterone level hybrid? Like half jock / half math nerd? Not even a little scared of that? //
He's called Professor Brian Cox, and he's more deserving of pity than condemnation.-- 8th of 7, Dec 03 2019 Can I just be honest?
I trust you guys, I don't trust certain governments and what they might do with this. There I said it.
You know how we'd get a superman that can destroy us all? If a nasty but powerful nation said "Hey scientists, get to work on a superman that can destroy us all.".
That being said, sounds like you guys are at the forefront of the battle against disease and suffering so good for you. Very cool.-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 <Takes pity on [doc] due to elaborate virtuosity of special pleading/>
Here, you can have these torches, and this small and rather blunt sickle to carry too, if it means so much to you. But no matches. Matches are only for Grown-Ups. That's one of the Rules. Now, have you got a clean hanky ? Are your shoe laces tied ? No, you can't riot properly if your laces aren't done up. It's another one of the Rules.
Just stand there and shuffle your feet and mutter "Rhubarb, rhubarb" until [MB] gets up on the table to do the speech.-- 8th of 7, Dec 03 2019 We're still speaking English right? Did I miss a memo?-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 //That's the question: will they be nice? If so, why?//
Because you are our parents, grandparents, siblings and children still for many generations during the change, while love itself doesn't change one whit.
Next question...-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Dec 03 2019 (raises hand)
What about the impact on sports?
Here's why we love sports: They're the antithesis of something horrible we all need to contend with. Every day mediocre people in positions of power due to autocratic systems, elitist connections and rich parents make us shake our heads with how incredibly stupid they can be and how adversely they effect our society, but it's a fact of life. Like cancer or sitcom laugh-tracks, we just deal with it.
But then there's the great nobility of the sports star. The guy whose parents were teachers or plumbers, truck drivers or construction workers who would wake up early every weekend to take their little kid to practice or to the park to work on his throwing arm. Hard working folks who'd scrape up what little money they had to put him into Little League or Pee Wee Football just so their child could have a chance at reaching for the big dream. And although the odds are extremely low, those young people from all walks of life, from the suburbs, from the ghettos, from farms and factory towns rise to the top to become the people's royalty every day. Actual heroes who earned their status, not inbred autocrats whose great great grandfather did something in 1860 whatever.
Want proof that this is the great people's meritocracy? Name one instance where the rich and powerful owner of a football team put his kid in as quarterback of the team he owns. You won't find one because it doesn't work that way. Let that sink in for a second.
Now enter the genetically modified athlete. Game over. We get to watch a bunch of test tube animals who never earned their excellence, they just had a cell jabbed with the right allele.
So Max, again with the fire analogy, you're heating homes in the winter and doing great things for the human family, your work has nothing to to with my complaints about somebody possibly throwing molotov cocktails through people's windows. Fire good... unless bad people are in charge of it. Any big step in evolution (and that's what this is) bears some critical review. Un- intended consequences are a big factor in life.
How about some review and regulation? For instance, I'm not crazy about crossing some other species with a human. I believe that's already been addressed but there seems to be an agreed upon line there no?-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 No. For example, lawyers appear to be the result of cross-breeding humans with some species of arachnid (venomous, dissolve their prey from the inside ) or possibly constricting snakes (cold blooded ambush predators which slowly crush their victims before swallowing them whole).
And most career politicians have many of the same genes as baboons, or howler monkeys.
No matter what legal checks and balances are put in place, if someone sees the opportunity to gain money or power by doing it, it will be done. The technology is ubiquitous, small-scale, and uncontrollable. It only takes one deranged maniac in a backroom lab to mutter "The fools ! I'll kill them all !! " and cross Ebola with the common cold, then make themselves ibto an asymptomatic carrier and go on a tour of the planet's air terminsls to end it all for your species.-- 8th of 7, Dec 03 2019 Yea, but lawyers provide a valuable... uh... hmm. Oh! They do help society by.... uhhhh...
Never mind.-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 No, go on ... it was just getting really interesting.-- 8th of 7, Dec 03 2019 OK, "The Cannibal Lawyers" would make a great punk rock band name.-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 We were hoping for something more along the lines of "If xenotransplantation could be perfected, lawyers could be a useful source of spare parts both for humans, and for animal species endangered in their wild environment" but realistically a band name is probably the best that's achievable.-- 8th of 7, Dec 03 2019 See? I like to think everybody can contribute something to society, be it spare parts or a funny name for a band.-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 //I don't trust certain governments and what they might do with this.// I'm shocked and horrified, [doc]. Fortunately, I can confidently say that governments are sufficiently nonept for this not to be a big problem - by the time they have (a) figured out that you could create an army of superhuman human-dogs with laser eyes, (b) assigned a budget to do it (c) recruited the necessary people, who will want eye-watering salaries and (d) redesigned their super- secret gubment facility several times until they get it right, the world will have moved on and companies like Microsoft and Google will have created armies of human-dog laser- eye-resistant warriors.
Even when it comes to good old-fashioned biological warfare, gubments are usually quite a few decades behind the curve.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 03 2019 There are hopes that the Royal Aircraft Establishment's report on the possible military applications of the horse-drawn Montgolfier aerostat may be available very soon.
But they are just hopes, not prospects.-- 8th of 7, Dec 03 2019 In the meantime, [doc], I can get you a good price for a kidney.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 03 2019 Selling or buying?-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 Depends - how many you got at the moment?-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 03 2019 I've only got legal ownership of two currently but I'm using them.
But hey, make me an offer.-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 Well, if you've already got two I sure wouldn't try to sell you third. Obviously, a matched pair will command a higher price than a singleton, especially if they're in good condition. Your best option, really, is to sell them as a pair and then buy yourself a cheap singleton for a good price.
Roughly how many gallons have you put on them from new?-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 03 2019 // I sure wouldn't try to sell you third. //
No, you leave that sort of shabby mountebankery to your relatives, don't you, Mister Squeaky Clean ? Yes, we've had a look in that old freezer hidden behind the stuffed hippopotamous collection in the Fourth Reserve Rhubarb Shed, so we know whereof we speak. Your family have raised "unprincipled" to a whole new level.
<Aside>
Offer to trade him his two used ones for one of [xenzag]'s - vegan teeetotaller, excellent condition ...
</Aside>-- 8th of 7, Dec 03 2019 //shabby mountebankery// Come come - I won't stand for "shabby". "Underhand" is a little more acceptable, implying as it does a certain degree of cunning. I'm also quite happy with "Skullduggery", which has a sort of romantic charm.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 03 2019 //Roughly how many gallons have you put on them from new?//
Although I haven't drank for many years now, I started drinking when I was about 12 or 13 and was a very heavy drinker by about 15 or 16. In other words, a lot.
At a party many years ago I just didn't finish my 3rd beer of the night. Halfway through I looked at it and thought "I don't want this anymore." and poured it out. Haven't had one since. Crazy eh?-- doctorremulac3, Dec 03 2019 That is, indeed, crazy. Well, with that history, I think we might be able to market yours as a "barn find", or possibly a "with character" or "pre-loved" tag.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 04 2019 "Suit enthusiastic restorer" ?
// I'm also quite happy with "Skullduggery", which has a sort of romantic charm. //
Considering the reputation for privateering (going back many centuries) and the well- substantiated accusations of downright piracy (starting in the 16th century and continuing up to, well, about yesterday afternoon) that your family has, "romantic charm" is a bit like a bijou trellis of briar roses around the doorway of an abbatoir.-- 8th of 7, Dec 04 2019 // reputation for privateering// It's not a "reputation", it's a profession. It's hardly our fault that the political climate has changed underneath our feet, nor that modern legislation has placed so many of our family traditions outside the law.
There was a time when capturing a few Spanish ships, occupying a large part of South America or converting a couple of archipelagos into rubber plantations would have earned us nothing but praise (and money, obvs). But nowadays the world is run by vegetarians and box-tickers. Fortunately, this is only a temporary aberration and the Buchanans are ready to ride it out. We came through the last ice age, which was longer and tougher.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Dec 05 2019 How about just having the wigs with voiceover, then people try to guess who the person/people are?-- not_morrison_rm, Dec 07 2019 OK - what did I miss? My rant was interrupted by having to spend as week on a project in death-march mode, and I'm squeezing this in just before boarding a flight for somewhere remote, unsanitary and potentially violent.
[2 fries], good point, maybe physics/maths made a bad analogy.
But, [dr3], simplifying history to convey "the important lessons" is a short, straight route to confirmation bias. For example ... damn: my flight!-- pertinax, Dec 07 2019 But the wigs have nothing to do with the US breaking off from the UK so for instance, tell the story with no wigs. Hell, have them all wearing 1950s slick back Elvis hairdos on both sides.
Have Brylcreem sponsor it.
Has the story lost anything? Good, let's move on to the pants. Levis. Horse drawn carriages = the new Ford Mustang. Think Washington would have driven a Japanese import? Think again.
OK, let's compromise. Everything can be all old timey but every once in a while you see a modern product stuck in there to finance these boring history lessons. Kids would pay attention just to be able to say "Hey! Lincoln is using the new Schick Hydro 5 Sensitive Skin Razor system to shave off his beard!"-- doctorremulac3, Dec 07 2019 random, halfbakery