My Idea is to start a farm, where the animals are kept in nice conditions, with plenty of food and medical care, with lots of space to roam around in. None of the animals are slaughtered. Instead, they live to old age, and eventually die of natural causes. Their bodies are then collected, and given to the butchers, who cut them up and pack them, and they are sold to supermarkets. Vegetarians have no reason not to eat this meat. No animal was harmed, they got to live out their natural lives in comfort. And in death, they are giving others sustanance.-- Blisterman, Dec 16 2005 meat production of the future http://news.bbc.co....ci/tech/4148164.stmIAIN M. BANKS WAS RIGHT! [rainbow, Dec 16 2005] (?) Carrot Juice is Murder http://www.folkweb....orms/carrot-load.ra [DesertFox, Dec 18 2005] Ameglian Major Cow http://www.saunalah.../~huuhilo/dna2.htmlbreed an animal that actually wanted to be eaten [duroncrush, Jul 21 2011] So veal and lamb are out, then?
There are *other* reasons for vegetarianism. Aside from anything medical, there's the fact that meat as a foodstuff is horrendously inefficient. It takes something like six tons of wheat to produce one ton of beef (might be ten, but I'll err on the side of caution for now). If we just ate the wheat, we could feed lots more people.
(Note for posterity: I am not a vegetarian. Not while there's bacon in the world).-- moomintroll, Dec 16 2005 a slightly simplistic view of the situation.
what about predatory animals, parasites, diseases? farming is unatural and is therefore the direct creation of suffering by humans. animals natural instinct is to breed so you couldn't seperate the sexes..but if you don't what happens to all the chicks, calves etc?
moomintroll makes a very good point. my research on the subject confirms a tenfold factor of efficiency. this planet of ours could easily feed 20 billion vegetarians...albert einstein suggested this is the next step in human evolution.
anyway, technology is already ahead of you...see link.-- rainbow, Dec 16 2005 "Erhm, this meat is rather tough"
What was the idea about gengineering brainless cattle?-- DesertFox, Dec 17 2005 As comedian Ron White said, "I didn't climb all the way to the top of the food chain so I could eat carrots."-- MikeOxbig, Dec 17 2005 //farming is unatural and is therefore the direct creation of suffering by humans.//
Que? Some propose that plants in their benevolence by chance to humans have secured their own future for a fraction of infinity.
I can't vote FOR the idea. Though not yet a convert of vegetarianism, I know that your premise is flawed. Convince me otherwise using amino acids, etc.-- Zimmy, Dec 17 2005 The older it gets the tastier is gets-- Antegrity, Dec 17 2005 are you being sarcastic [Pave]?
how many animals have you killed to eat?-- rainbow, Dec 18 2005 Good on ya [Blisterman], not voting for your own idea and all.-- 2 fries shy of a happy meal, Dec 18 2005 No animals were harmed in the making of this annotation.-- zigness, Dec 18 2005 Ants, radishes, pears, calamari, and others are pretty wholistic or macrobiotic. I say eat what feels right.-- reensure, Dec 18 2005 Reminds me of a song... [linkie]-- DesertFox, Dec 18 2005 Eating an animal that died of natural causes is a very dangerous thing to do.
Still, it makes an interesting image of planning a holiday dinner. "Die, damn you, they'll be here any time now!"-- lurch, Dec 18 2005 Won't be able to eat turtles anymore, they live too long.-- MikeOxbig, Dec 18 2005 I'm a vegetarian (possibly the only one on this site), and the reason you've suggested is only one of the reasons. I dislike the taste of meat, I find it repulsive. I also find the social conscience involved in eating meat repulsive. I find the crap about eating meat to support the farmers repulsive. I find farmers repulsive. Lastly, I find you're idea repulsive. Go gnaw on a bone.-- Honduras, Dec 18 2005 //I find farmers repulsive// woah, relax. Granted, they're not everyone's cup of tea - the ubiquitous whippet down the trousers can be offputting when you're talking to 'em - but they do have some good aspects. Sometimes it's handy to have someone around who can drive a combine harvester. Especially when you're trapped in a barn, and BA Baracas is off doing another book signing, the git.
//possibly the only one on this site// almost certainly not. Don't flatter yourself.-- moomintroll, Dec 18 2005 How could anyone not like meat? I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.-- MikeOxbig, Dec 18 2005 meat tastes delcious of course..but sits very heavy on the conscience (and of course in the gut over time).
the point is animals will always suffer on a farm yet this almost completely avoidable by us all being vegan. our souls would be nourished along with our bodies. it is no coincidence that all forms of bacterial and viral disease contracted from food come from animal foods.
i have been vegan for ten healthy years, working in construction, ripped, never ill. soya contains more protein than beef and is easier to digest.
people who eat meat are smellier. and generally hypocrites. would you all eat horse? cat? dog? monkey?
exactly.-- rainbow, Dec 19 2005 "Stranger, Stranger in a Strange land. He looked at me like I..ahEyeEYE! was the one who should run."-- Zimmy, Dec 19 2005 I honestly would eat cat, horse, dog, and maybe monkey (it would have to be tested for AIDs first) But theres also the fact that I've made it my goal to eat as many different species of animals as heavenly possible. You name it I've tried to eat it.-- MikeOxbig, Dec 19 2005 The Question, [MikeOxbig]....I proposed, is would you, could you, In the dark? Would you, could you, In the park?, celebrate Ximmy's demise. W/ festive Jestive no comprimise?
Celebrate the sad fool life? Ingest the power, could you survive?-- Zimmy, Dec 19 2005 What in the name of God are you rambling about [Zimmy]? Are you a crack-head?-- MikeOxbig, Dec 19 2005 //You name it I've tried to eat it.//
Have You read 'Stranger in a strange land', willing to try long pork? The line is drawn, but why & where?
You're absoloutley right, MOB. I deleted a major concept in my anno, resulting in my sputtering jibberish. I accidentally do this on a regualr basis. It's Jim's fault, too. Very sorry, Sir.
Also, I'm curious. Would you eat meat grown in petri dish?-- Zimmy, Dec 19 2005 Oh, what's the difference between eating a dead cow and eating a dead human? It gets rid of excess waste either way (although modern farming practices generally create more waste than they get rid of).-- Honduras, Dec 19 2005 Some interesting points made in here. To take up a few://animals will always suffer on a farm yet this almost completely avoidable by us all being vegan//Untrue, [rainbow]. Take a look at the number of field animals killed during harvest, or the effect of fertilizers and pesticides on groundwater - these are negative effects caused exclusively by arable farming. Unless you're proposing another model, problems still exist. //our souls would be nourished along with our bodies//Absolute horse shit. Either substantiate the claim with evidence (first for the existence of the soul, then for its nourishment by a calorific source, then for its preference for plant-based calories), or retract it. As to the rest, I'm a meat eater, although I like to balance my diet with plenty of fruit and vegetables. I, also am rarely ill. Hooray for us, but I don't think it proves anything. I'd happily eat horse, dog and cat (probably already have at some point) but I'm not sure about monkey. I like monkeys, but not on a plate. This sort of leads on to [Honduras]' point about eating humans. On one level, yes, you're simply taking sustenance from dead matter. On another level, you sick bastard that's somebody's kid! I think cannibalism just requires too hefty a dose of rationality and lack of emotion for most people to be comfortable with.-- DocBrown, Dec 19 2005 What is it about vegetarianism that seems to so offend some meat eaters? I've lost count of the number of ideas that we've had posted on this site by people desperate to bring the joy of meat to the vegetarian masses. //Vegetarians have no reason not to eat this meat// ...except that they're vegetarian of course. [marked-for-deletion] stereotyping.-- DrBob, Dec 19 2005 Since when is black pudding 'meat'?-- Honduras, Dec 19 2005 Are you saying black pudding's okay for vegetarians?-- moomintroll, Dec 19 2005 first of all..as a bakery newbie..may i say wow! thank you everyone for all the erudite feedback. i haven't encountered this on the interweb before. finally found some people who actually WANT to have an argument!
regarding long pig...personally it is the only meat i am really interested in eating. i would relish it, assuming of course it was from a good source. [MikeOxbig] fancy donating a kidney?
i look forward to the day that we have vat grown meats. blood from live animals seems ok. or human blood, fat etc.. i ocassionally eat roadkill too if it is fresh.
{DocBrown] - thank you for picking me up on my sloppy reasoning there. i was being fairly poetic and metaphysical with the //soul// comment. i don't actually believe in the soul. what i mean is that, to me at least, it's a no-brainer that continuing one's own existence without ending the existence of another sentient being is a better way of living.
as to animals killed in arable agriculture..well that is unavoidable. but if we didn't need to grow crops to feed animals then there would be less land farmed therefore less death, pollution etc..
[DrBob] makes an excellent point too. i have encountered automatic defense hostility from meateaters on a regular basis. perhaps it is because deep down, within the subconscious they feel bad about what they are doing?-- rainbow, Dec 19 2005 Hmm, well this is quite baked except for the part about having the animals die of "natural causes" in their "old age." That's not going to produce quality meat, and it's somewhat of a silly anthropocentric concept anyway. (Humans have cause to live until they're old, because they are highly social animals who can be usefully wise as elders, but most animals are done once they've had a chance to breed.)
If you're going to eat meat, it's best for environmental, moral and economic reasons to eat meat from animals that were properly cared for. You generally have to look beyond supermarkets to find sustainably & compassionately raised meat, because it's not able to compete on a dollars & cents basis with cramming cows into tiny stalls and injecting them with whatever makes them grow fastest. But there are people out there doing it anyway, because it's what they love, & they desperately need your support.
So: Love your local farmers! They deserve it!
<3-- mungojelly, Dec 20 2005 GOD has something to say on this matter:
Deuteronomy 14:21 Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God.
So this would be strictly for the alien market.-- bungston, Dec 20 2005 [UnaBubba] it is standard practice in all western countries to rountinely add antibiotics to animal foods simply in order to increase growth rates.
i can't believe folks have started quoting the bible! however..//And G*d said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yeilding seed; to you it shall be for meat.// gen 1:29
in the developed world meat is an abused luxury. sure we can digest it but the idea that we NEED it is a fallacy. all of the protiens, minerals etc can be found in nonanimal foods, often with less associated toxins to process at the same time. colon cancer is virtually unknown in areas of the world where the diet is vegetarian.-- rainbow, Dec 20 2005 [UnaBubba] No one was claiming that we were meant to be vegetarian. In fact, without the tasty, fatty, protein filled meat our ancestors gorged themselves on, they wouldn't have had the energy to begin devoting themselves to important things like designing forums to discuss new inventions.
The argument is that now that (in a certain percentage of the world at least) it is possible to live a healthy life without eating meat, and there is a certain amount of badness/sin/evil/whatever in taking the life of another being, those of us that can, should.
Not being a fatalist I certainly don't think we were "meant" to be vegetarian, but each individual's ecological footprint on the world would be smaller if they were vegetarian. This would be a good thing, so in a sense, it could be seen as the next step in human evolution.
That said, I eat just about anything; including tasty, tasty meat.-- Mr_John, Dec 20 2005 The only use meat serves in our advanced society is its role in the "Ritual Ode to the Firepit", whereat we gather to bestow alms to Heavenly Father ... fire provider. Yeaobugha!-- reensure, Dec 20 2005 i think the veal died of loneliness....-- Kociol, Jul 15 2006 So, assuming the world does adapt a vegan attitude and stops raising livestock, what would be the future for our tasty four-legged friends? Since it would be inhumane to simply kill all those cattle and sheep and chickens (ok, so chickens arent four-legged, but you get the point), we would have to set them free and let them un-domesticate themselves. But what would be the consequence of that? All of these farms would now, I assume, grow crops for human consumption, allowing us to reach that 20 billion mark in population. If this was the case, all of the cattle and such would be left to roam whatever ranch they were set free on, seeing as how cows are very inefficient at jumping fences, and would simply eat whatever crops that were being produced for human consumption. So what do we gain? A bunch of farm land that now can neither produce meat for people or crops for people. The only other option would be mass slaughter of all livestock, which would not be a positive event in anyones mind. The bottom line is that we cant really change the system (not that I personally would want to anyway, I like beef). The only way to make the whole world vegetarian is to eliminate cattle and other livestock for their own good. Any other way and we would be leaving the animals to lead a much worse life than they now have. While I may not agree with the farming methods of everyone out there (whether or not they inject hormones, I have heard convincing arguments on both sides and havnt researched enough on my own to decide), I dont see a problem with eating meat, or for that matter, not eating meat. As my screen name implies, I prefer to supply my own meat, and I can promise you, the deer that supply my dinner have lived natural lives and died with as little suffering as possible. A well placed shot with an adequate weapon will kill an animal before it hears the "boom" or feels any pain, and that is what I strive for.
As for the actual idea, Im gonna have to fishbone it because, as stated before by others, eating the meat of an animal that dies of natural causes is generally a bad idea. And for the record, I dont see a problem with referring to the Bible. Just because you have faith in a greater being doesnt mean you cannot be intelligent or reasonable.-- Hunter79764, Jul 16 2006 //The only other option would be mass slaughter of all livestock, which would not be a positive event in anyones mind.//
(Going along with [Hunter79764]'s view of the situation for the sake of argument)... Would a single, final mass slaughter of 100% of all livestock be *so* bad? When you compare it with the on-going mass slaughter of, for example, 67% of all beef cattle and 20% of all dairy cattle (beef cattle are usually killed at an age of around 15-20 months, dairy cattle at an average age of around 5 years), each and every year?-- imaginality, Oct 15 2006 There might be one situation where most vegetarians accept meat in their mouth?
And this is live human meat, I mean oral sex, lol.-- Pellepeloton, Apr 06 2007 I'm a vegetarian only because I dislike the taste of meat. I'd happily kill an animal with my bare hands though. Or perhaps a hammer. I hate animals with a passion.-- rodti, Apr 06 2007 Good call [Hunter]. Of course, there's the possiblity that we turn the domesticated animals all loose, then fence the fields. Stock cross the roads, sometimes killing, sometimes being killed by the evil human race. Natural predators kill stock off until predatory animals (wolves, fox etc.) are overpopulated at the point when cows(chickens, etc.)become endangered. Now we have to relinquish much arable farm land to rebuild (at great cost) the "natural" habitat of the bovine. And deal with our children being eaten by hungry wolves. Food supplies dwindle, and a black meat market thrives. Cool huh? If we do it, mass slaughter is out. We couldn't eat all that meat or store it at once, much would go to waste. We'd have to stop the stock from breeding, and slaughter them as they come of age for eating until they're all gone.-- wittyhoosier, Apr 06 2007 Eh? Anyway, I personally don't see that I need meat, but I do want meat. And frankly I think my enjoyment is more important than that of a cow's. I honestly just think cow's have no rights, not even the intrinsic right to life.
EDIT: BTW, this idea still stinks, the problem is that whilst I hold the belief that animals don't deserve anything, most people disagree. The fact is most vegetarians have a deeper-rooted dislike of cruelty to animals or killing them at all than just what this would solve.-- Germanicus, Apr 06 2007 Why not make it even less cruel? Just wait until a cow wanders off from he herd (so's not to distress his friends), then pop him with a high velocity rifle. T-1 = happy- cow-thoughts; T+1 = no-cow-thoughts. Hence, no unhappy cow. Also, no elderly or sick depressed cow. Win win.-- MaxwellBuchanan, Apr 06 2007 Its not just about cruelty;
Ex, if carnivorous people find a dead human being lying in the jungle, they won't eat the human meat, even if the person was already dead.
Similarly most vegetarians find idea of eating meat repulsive. Its like eating dead human being. Persoanlly I dislike the fact that they (animals)contain blood, veins, bones, poop etc...
Add to that the fact that animals contain poop. So when very small animals are eaten wholly, there poop also gets eaten...-- VJW, Jun 22 2011 Would you eat a salamander tail ?-- FlyingToaster, Jun 22 2011 No salamander would not like it.
If you imagine, veganism as one end of food spectrum and cannibalism as other end then eating animals would lie somewhere in between.
I think for vegetarians, eating animal meat is much closer to eating human flesh compared to eating plants. For carnivores, its other way.-- VJW, Jun 22 2011 Warning: tangent ahead!
Last fall, I shot and killed a six-point whitetail buck as per my 'antlers-only' Maine State Hunting Permit. I fired from a range of approximately 110 yards using an AR-15 rifle that I built myself. The deer never saw me. My 6.8mm Nosler- tip bullet entered its left flank, punctured the anterior lobe of the lung, and expanded as it continued into and through the heart. As I watched through my scope, the animal raised its head, blinked, took a single step forward, and fell over, dead. I then dressed the carcass, registered my kill at a Game Inspection Station and went home. I skinned and butchered the deer myself. I had the hide cured at a local tannery and it now graces the back of my sofa. I have used skins from previous seasons to make seat covers for my Jeep, a hat, and my wife has made several drums. I eat virtually every edible part of the animals, including the heart, except for the liver and lungs, which I give to a friend because I don't like them.
My point is that human beings, along with every other carnivore on earth, have been doing this for the entire history of our race. I know that not everyone is a hunter, and that not every hunter is as skilled a rifleman as I, but I still think that there is nothing cruel or unethical about killing an animal and eating it. Yet I have been told on more than one occasion that what I do is cruel and abhorrent compared to buying meat in the store. Those who express this opinion have been unable to convince me as to why this is. I hereby offer the chance to do just that to anyone who cares to accept the challenge.-- Alterother, Jun 22 2011 A chance to go hunting with you? Oh yeah, I have some vacation time on the books! (re-reads anno) Oh, never mind.
Too bad about your accident, get well soon.-- normzone, Jun 22 2011 Thanks for the well wishes, [norm], I appreciate it! Ironically, in view of you mentioning it in this anno thread, it turns out that a deer was the cause; apparently, one jumped right out in front of me (I sustained a moderate concussion and have no memory of the event, but I live in a very small town and an acquaintance happened to witness it).
Given that we almost literally reside as far apart as two people could get and still be in the lower 48, I doubt we'll be going on any backwoods excursions anytime soon, but that's not a bad idea, so that's the grand prize: the person who answers my quandary to my satisfaction wins the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to go hunting with me!-- Alterother, Jun 22 2011 So did you get to keep the deer, or was he wearing a helmet?-- normzone, Jun 23 2011 Wait, whoever has a convincing argument that hunting is cruel and abhorrent gets to go hunting?-- spidermother, Jun 23 2011 Only if they've convinced [Alterother] into not taking them.-- lurch, Jun 23 2011 Dingdingdingding!!! Spidermother and Lurch are the co- winners of the paradox prize! Borgy, tell 'em what they've won...
Re: deer; no unfortunately, it was badly injured, but it stumbled into the woods and the game wardens tracked it down and shot it. In Maine, meat from deer and moose put down by wardens (and those siezed from poachers) gets sent to the homeless shelters. Of course, I'm sure a little bit of it ends up on the warden's plate.-- Alterother, Jun 24 2011 Interesting support for my argument, but I contest the claim that adrenalin numbs pain. Based on a great deal of personal experience, I feel it would be more accurate to say that adrenalin diminishes the importance of pain over the need to survive a life-threatening situation. In any case, my last season's deer didn't seem to be in pain, although I have no way of knowing. He just looked a little confused.
Also, if you chase an animal, it doesn't know that it's "fair" game; it just knows it's being chased.-- Alterother, Jun 24 2011 Understanding ones self-image as fair game, at times, is an innate feature of awareness, per evolution, and not limited to the sentient-hunted: They - the chased - know they are fair game, regardless of local licencing.-- Sir_Misspeller, Jun 24 2011 Yes, but do deer have a self-image? Bucks often crash through patio doors and plate glass windows because they see thier own reflection and attack it, mistwking it for a rival buck. I'm saying that the deer cannot think of itself as fair game because it cannot think of 'itself' at all, at least not in abstract fashion. It doesn't need to. Abstract thinking, problem-solving, and eventual development of self-awareness are, as far as we know, mostly the province of apex predators. A deer doesn't think, 'I'm a deer, that's a hunter, he's going to kill me if I don't run away." It just knows that something's wrong and it's time to go.
Anyway, chasing the deer before you shoot it makes the meat taste funny.-- Alterother, Jun 24 2011 Douglas Adams had this all figured out in his book "The Hitch Hikers guide to the Galaxy" In it he created the Ameglian Major Cow, a ruminant specifically bred to not only have the desire to be eaten, but to be capable of saying so quite clearly and distinctly.-- duroncrush, Jul 21 2011 I am familiar with this cow of which you speak... and I approve. This is what we need to forever silence the meat- is-meanies.
No deer has ever asked me to kill it, with the possible exception of the one that jumped in front of my motorcycle.-- Alterother, Jul 21 2011 [+] for the discussion. It's not Kosher, and therefore an idea good for dogs and cats, or anyone outside the Jewish and Muslim religion.
Incidentally there are many vegetarians (like me) who recently are moving back to eating meat from slaughtered animals grown on Polyface like farms.-- pashute, Jul 22 2011 It seems there are many meat eaters here who agree that it is more moral and perhaps healthy to be vegetarian. But some how they are so addicted to taste of meat that they cant give it up. What we need is spieced up Indian, chienese, thai and other food easily available. Ex. If you travel to India, you will see so many mouth watering veg. snacks, that I doubt, any meat dish can match. ( I have been vegetarian since birth.)-- VJW, Jul 22 2011 I love Indian cuisine, and vegetables in general. I'm an omnivore. If I don't eat meat, I get anemic and my skin turns pale (okay, paler).
If somebody can subsist healthily on a meat-free diet and chooses to do so, cool. I take no issue with that. I just don't like having it shoved in my face, which seems to happen once every couple of months (thankfully, not here; I'm not referring to this discussion). I take the same stand with virtually every devisive issue, from politics to GM vs. Ford.
Fords suck.-- Alterother, Jul 22 2011 GM sucks more.-- FlyingToaster, Jul 23 2011 random, halfbakery